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Thread: IEIs-INFps talking back and "zingers"

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    Default IEIs-INFps talking back and "zingers"

    I've gotten flack for talking back to those above me for as long as I can remember. I don't do it just for the hell of it either--it's usually in self-defense and only happens after I've been exhaustively provoked. There were many times where I froze up, but I was delivering "zingers" as early as my mother can remember me talking, lol. I remember doing this to my IEI boss and getting a response in like, which on one hand, yeah, ouch, but on the other I felt pretty impressed at how similar we were in that area. My boyfriend is also IEI and I think we both sort of relish the other's "zest" when we're not stepping on each other's toes by accident (and even then, it's sort of a rush!).

    I was thinking about this because I just had a minor altercation with an EII who uses the "condemn and escape" method. I ended our interaction in a concise, somewhat pretentious but (I believe) effective PM through a site we both frequent and within minutes after having sent, she turned off the music blaring from her speakers, unlocked her door, closed her laptop and starting doing chores--something she ONLY does when she's feeling really gross or conflicted about something. Usually her EIE friends have this effect on her--I consider it a victory. Through observing (and more than once being on the receiving end of) LIEs and EIEs owning their adversaries this way, I've become quite decent at the written bitch-slap. Could this be type-related though? IEIs, how good are you at coming up with an insightful argument on the spot or in a relatively short time at least, verbally or in writing?
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    really sucks that LSE's are your conflictor. There's probably nothing wrong with you, your superiors just probably hate anyone not doing what they say immediately.
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    Haha, pretty much. Though I'm also a product of years and years spent hearing there IS something wrong with me from old-fashioned SEIs and SLIs (the ones my age would generally stand WITH me or even for me on most issues), so I usually put up with it. Silly paranoid LSEs!
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    I was very prone to this as a kid, but don't really do it anymore, at least not with the same insolent flair. mostly I'll just snap at people here and there to recalibrate whatever boundaries I feel their missteps have pushed to a critical point, it's more about the collective energy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I was very prone to this as a kid, but don't really do it anymore, at least not with the same insolent flair. mostly I'll just snap at people here and there to recalibrate whatever boundaries I feel their missteps have pushed to a critical point, it's more about the collective energy.
    Makes sense. It also occurred to me that Ni-IEIs are probably far more in control of this/less likely to give in to it and hone the ability further. My boyfriend (Ni-IEI) is exceedingly careful and even feels guilty when he does let things slip, whereas I feel "calculated" is a term that applies better to me. :/
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    Makes sense. It also occurred to me that Ni-IEIs are probably far more in control of this/less likely to give in to it and hone the ability further. My boyfriend (Ni-IEI) is exceedingly careful and even feels guilty when he does let things slip, whereas I feel "calculated" is a term that applies better to me. :/
    ime Fe-IEIs do it more often &without repercussions because of this tempered piquancy. though I've never seen an Ni-IEI really come out, they tend to make cutting intimations to neutralize the energy. but yeah, my main issue is overstepping my boundaries in checking theirs; there's no substance if they become the focal point; so most of the time a brief glance is a fine reminder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    ime Fe-IEIs do it more often &without repercussions because of this tempered piquancy. though I've never seen an Ni-IEI really come out, they tend to make cutting intimations to neutralize the energy. but yeah, my main issue is overstepping my boundaries in checking theirs; there's no substance if they become the focal point; so most of the time a brief glance is a fine reminder.
    Yeah, assigning yourself as the line-drawer comes with a lot of responsibility, in timing and temperance equally.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    I've gotten flack for talking back to those above me for as long as I can remember. I don't do it just for the hell of it either--it's usually in self-defense and only happens after I've been exhaustively provoked. There were many times where I froze up, but I was delivering "zingers" as early as my mother can remember me talking, lol. I remember doing this to my IEI boss and getting a response in like, which on one hand, yeah, ouch, but on the other I felt pretty impressed at how similar we were in that area. My boyfriend is also IEI and I think we both sort of relish the other's "zest" when we're not stepping on each other's toes by accident (and even then, it's sort of a rush!).

    I was thinking about this because I just had a minor altercation with an EII who uses the "condemn and escape" method. I ended our interaction in a concise, somewhat pretentious but (I believe) effective PM through a site we both frequent and within minutes after having sent, she turned off the music blaring from her speakers, unlocked her door, closed her laptop and starting doing chores--something she ONLY does when she's feeling really gross or conflicted about something. Usually her EIE friends have this effect on her--I consider it a victory. Through observing (and more than once being on the receiving end of) LIEs and EIEs owning their adversaries this way, I've become quite decent at the written bitch-slap. Could this be type-related though? IEIs, how good are you at coming up with an insightful argument on the spot or in a relatively short time at least, verbally or in writing?
    Can you give an example of what you mean? I don't consider myself particularly witty or adept at coming up with zingers. I wish I had that old school British propensity for sardonic repartee ala Oscar Wilde or Winston Churchill.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Fe is a very defensive IM element isn't it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Yeah, assigning yourself as the line-drawer comes with a lot of responsibility, in timing and temperance equally.
    idk about assigning a role, it typically feels more like a backfire than slamming a gavel. actually self-appointed social arbiters tend to inspire immediate revulsion in me. though that may be because the majority of the ones I've dealt with were Te-dominants.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereNowTHIS View Post
    Can you give an example of what you mean? I don't consider myself particularly witty or adept at coming up with zingers. I wish I had that old school British propensity for sardonic repartee ala Oscar Wilde or Winston Churchill.
    Haha, I honestly don't believe that. But uh... I'd have to ask my mom, she's SEI and remembers this stuff better than I do. The earliest example I can come up with is... grade 3, we were doing popcorn reading and the girl who kept getting chosen was stumbling over all the words. She happened to be a bit of a bully (my siblings and I were poor and she would turn other kids on the schoolbus against us) so I took the opportunity to jab at her by suggesting that "the next person that gets called on actually know HOW to read." Said very innocently. I guess it's sort of an ILI statement, lol. And yes, of course I was punished.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    lol that's great. I remember a few similar incidents during my noble naval tenure. the first was when we were doing gun training, and some dumbass kept jamming the bullet every time he tried to unload it, halting the entire process, so I ended up snapping at him, "just put down the fucking gun," and master made me do srz exercise for like 20 minutes. another time during a mock communications drill this sloppy mexican kept fumbling over the simplest phrases, so eventually I just offhandedly told him to learn how to speak english. good times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    lol that's great. I remember a few similar incidents during my noble naval tenure. the first was when we were doing gun training, and some dumbass kept jamming the bullet every time he tried to unload it, halting the entire process, so I ended up snapping at him, "just put down the fucking gun," and master made me do srz exercise for like 20 minutes. another time during a mock communications drill this sloppy mexican kept fumbling over the simplest phrases, so eventually I just offhandedly told him to learn how to speak english. good times.
    Yup sounds familiar.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athww View Post
    @JWC3 yeah kindof seems XEIs are sometimes worried they can't do much in this world. Would you say Te is the more offensive of the IM elements?
    *shrugs* I guess you could say that. I was more being snarky than anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    *shrugs* I guess you could say that. I was more being snarky than anything else.
    Calm your tits.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    Calm your tits.
    No you.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    idk about assigning a role, it typically feels more like a backfire than slamming a gavel. actually self-appointed social arbiters tend to inspire immediate revulsion in me. though that may be because the majority of the ones I've dealt with were Te-dominants.
    Hmmm...I dunno, I guess the way I usually see interactions is that it's either a constant mediating process, or a one-way road that leads over a cliff, lol. I guess you are just an introvert...and more patient than me
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    This is why SLE's were born with strong pimp hands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snaps View Post
    This is why SLE's were born with strong pimp hands.
    It's dangerous to go alone! Take this! *Disperses strong pimp hands*
    Last edited by JWC3; 07-24-2012 at 01:51 AM.
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    I usually do it quietly and only within hearing of the people closest to me... I've noticed that giving each other cheek is the basic medium through which I communicate with other beta irrationals though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    I've always been prone to talk smart/shit/back, and rebutt. But i think the manner in which i was raised sort of quelled that impulse. If anyone did that to my mom she'd rip them a new asshole. 0 disrespect was tolerated, and seeing as how that was the main authority figure i had growing up, not talking back sort of became a habit. Among friends though, ill still shit on any and everyone if what they're saying doesnt add up and irks me. I'm still fairly quick to pick apart what someone says, even if my habit is to let is slide and keep my smart-assed-ness to myself.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I will if provoked to a point. If someone makes a blow at me, I wont hesitate to nip back. I usually feel bad if I go too far, though.

    Rarely do I blow up at people. You have to really hit one of my buttons. I have a hard time staying quiet if someone does something to really piss me off. My sister has this guy friend who always spends the night, 2 to 3 nights a week, and it really annoys me. She doesn't really really like him spending the night either, but she's an overly nice EII and can't seem to protest otherwise. The other day her friend stayed the night and attempted to use my shower. This really irritated me. I asked him in a bitchy tone why he was in my bathroom. When he said "I'm getting a shower" I grunted "okay... I don't know why you have to come here and get a shower. Why can't you get one at your own place?" He quickly mumbled that he was sorry, and left. I was fuming. It's a really big pet peeve of mine when people invade my privacy or use my things.

    The next day my EII sister scolded me for being rude. She said that I had apparently hurt his feelings. I felt kind of bad because he's a really sweet guy, but at the same time, I kind of felt like if I didn't say something, I'd probably have some kind of built up resentment towards him for using my things without asking. He hasn't stayed the night since, so I honestly don't feel too torn up about it.
    Last edited by fox; 07-26-2012 at 06:26 AM.
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    I usually don't SAY anything. But I might make a face at my allies, or sometimes just a glance will do. lol That's how I got out of jury duty once. I answered the questions completely honestly and exactly the way they told me to, but I raised my eyebrows at some of the things they were saying, and tilted my head like I wasn't quite sure, or like I *knew* something but wasn't going to say it. I was dismissed. hahaha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    I've always been prone to talk smart/shit/back, and rebutt. But i think the manner in which i was raised sort of quelled that impulse. If anyone did that to my mom she'd rip them a new asshole. 0 disrespect was tolerated, and seeing as how that was the main authority figure i had growing up, not talking back sort of became a habit.
    Same here, Pookie. Only it was my dad who enforced the rules. His big expression was, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." We kids were not even allowed to tease each other. The consequences of "disrespect" were quite severe. The interesting thing is that I am not a disrespectful person. The things I said that brought on punishment were usually my heartfelt beliefs, my dad just didn't like anyone to disagree with him.

    So my siblings and I are all extremely polite and try hard not to offend. I almost never let out the contradictory thoughts that occur to me in conversations. Occasionally they slip out and I almost always feel bad about it.

    What is your own reaction to disrespect toward yourself?

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    Yes, I have had a couple of encounters the last few weeks with a new coworker i suspect is IEI. On both occasions i felt this HUUUGE attitude from her trying to blame others for her own failings, and on both occasions I extinguished that whiny accusatory attitude with some factual information.

    I can see why it's called an "extinguishment" or "contrary" relation now..
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Yes, I have had a couple of encounters the last few weeks with a new coworker i suspect is IEI. On both occasions i felt this HUUUGE attitude from her trying to blame others for her own failings, and on both occasions I extinguished that whiny accusatory attitude with some factual information.

    I can see why it's called an "extinguishment" or "contrary" relation now..
    Sounds familiar. I've both observed and been the cause of that, I think, but I suppose being the oldest child in a house of four changed me for the better in that regard. Sorry you have to put up with that, Anon.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    Sounds familiar. I've both observed and been the cause of that, I think, but I suppose being the oldest child in a house of four changed me for the better in that regard. Sorry you have to put up with that, Anon.
    lol no probs... I can deal with it... as long as i know not to take it personally which is a weakness i'm constantly trying to work on..
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    lol no probs... I can deal with it... as long as i know not to take it personally which is a weakness i'm constantly trying to work on..
    Ni is a very anxiety driven function; peeling away redundancy, deficiency an even self perspective when it can be of benefit to review that. Ultra-minimalist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ni is a very anxiety driven function; peeling away redundancy, deficiency an even self perspective when it can be of benefit to review that. Ultra-minimalist.
    That' interesting, can u explain that a bit more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    That' interesting, can u explain that a bit more?
    Not really

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Not really
    lol...

    aww too bad...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    Same here, Pookie. Only it was my dad who enforced the rules. His big expression was, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." We kids were not even allowed to tease each other. The consequences of "disrespect" were quite severe. The interesting thing is that I am not a disrespectful person. The things I said that brought on punishment were usually my heartfelt beliefs, my dad just didn't like anyone to disagree with him.

    So my siblings and I are all extremely polite and try hard not to offend. I almost never let out the contradictory thoughts that occur to me in conversations. Occasionally they slip out and I almost always feel bad about it.

    What is your own reaction to disrespect toward yourself?
    It takes alot to hit a nerve for me. I like to play off of what people say, and if it seems slightly disrespectful, ill reciprocate and build my response off of what they say in a tit for tat manner. I have pretty mean thoughts in my head lol, so when someone gives me an excuse to let it out, i will, even if its in a playful tone.

    When i actually really feel Disrespected though, my body language changes and people tend to pick up on my strained restraint pretty quickly. I get quieter, my eye-contact is more direct, and i probably have that Fi flicker of contempt in my eyes.
    My course of action is determined by my relationship with them. Friend/Acquaintance, ill try my hardest to minimalize my feelings and overlook it. Strangers will get the full brunt of my visible anger. Se kicks in, in overdrive essentially. And i'll fight my close friends. Anyone on that real inner circle isnt allowed to disrespect me without consequence. I overlook most things to the point that if i actually feel disrespected, then you are definitely in the wrong. I just will not allow it from anybody that i am close to.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    It takes alot to hit a nerve for me. I like to play off of what people say, and if it seems slightly disrespectful, ill reciprocate and build my response off of what they say in a tit for tat manner. I have pretty mean thoughts in my head lol, so when someone gives me an excuse to let it out, i will, even if its in a playful tone.

    When i actually really feel Disrespected though, my body language changes and people tend to pick up on my strained restraint pretty quickly. I get quieter, my eye-contact is more direct, and i probably have that Fi flicker of contempt in my eyes.
    My course of action is determined by my relationship with them. Friend/Acquaintance, ill try my hardest to minimalize my feelings and overlook it. Strangers will get the full brunt of my visible anger. Se kicks in, in overdrive essentially. And i'll fight my close friends. Anyone on that real inner circle isnt allowed to disrespect me without consequence. I overlook most things to the point that if i actually feel disrespected, then you are definitely in the wrong. I just will not allow it from anybody that i am close to.

    What's an instance of something that might hit a nerve, Pookie? Now I'm curious.

    I tend to be pretty self-conscious and controlled, and if I'm really upset, would probably rather back down or talk than vent my anger on the person. The "talking back" I basically meant when starting the thread was pretty much what you described: meeting people tit for tat when they start messing with me or trying to manipulate me. I don't think I've ever gone on the offensive like what you described toward the end though, however I can think of plenty of times I showed a spine during interactions when I didn't feel I was being accorded the right amount of consideration. Generally I tend to be pretty careful of how I interact with people and give my friends plenty of warnings if they're treading where I think they shouldn't or wish they wouldn't. If they insist on being an ass still, I'll just avoid them until they fix their act.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ningyo View Post
    What's an instance of something that might hit a nerve, Pookie? Now I'm curious.
    Unintentionally/Intentionally insulting my family. Improper tone when speaking to my little sisters. Stealing from me. Or treating me sub-human.

    Those are types of instances where 3(SEE,LSI, LSI) close friends and 1(FAG) stranger got the real angry side of my self exposed to them.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Also no offense by fag. I dont mean it as a derogatory term for gay people. I mean it as a derogatory term for assholes. I'd never call a gay person a fag, unless they were being a total fag.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Unintentionally/Intentionally insulting my family. Improper tone when speaking to my little sisters. Stealing from me. Or treating me sub-human.

    Those are types of instances where 3(SEE,LSI, LSI) close friends and 1(FAG) stranger got the real angry side of my self exposed to them.
    Excellent reasons to tear them new assholes, all.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

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