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Thread: Hitta's final model B thread

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    Default Hitta's final model B thread

    The importance of understanding Model B comes from realizing that each function is based around an information element/aspect that correlates to a specific component of observed reality. Model B is not a deviation from Model A, but a form of Model A worked out to completion.

    Bukalov defined it as a 16 component full spectrum model, in which he then started to coagulate the model using the concept of dimensionality. To understand Model B, one must understand exactly what each section of model A does, as understanding the process of information metabolism is required in order to understand the “in-out” scheming of Model B. So that is where I'll start, with model A.

    Imagine an iceberg in the water. Half of the iceberg above, half of the iceberg below. What is above the water are the conscious functions, they are visible overt processes. What is below the water is the unconscious functions, hidden shadow processes that mirror the conscious processes. Then you have another dichotomy, the outside of the iceberg v.s the inside of the iceberg. The outside of the iceberg is the strong functions, are those that result sectors of the personality. The weak functions exist inside, they are the purpose sectors of the personality, herein lies the desires of the dominant functions. The important thing to understand about model A is it is based on information metabolism, meaning that all of the functions are interlinked, meaning they are apart of the same process on different levels of the psyche. You don't sweep your floor with your role function, you don't eat cake with your super-id functions. Model A is simply a way that information is categorized on different levels perception.


    Ego functions(Valued, Strong, Conscious): This is the dominant process, the vent so to speak. This is how a person processes information, how they think, how the exist, how they interact with the world.

    Super-Ego: (Devalued, Weak, Conscious): This is the conscious antithetical function to the ego. It serves as a conscious motivator for what not to do, balancing out the ego. This type of information is typically viewed with contempt, as the person is trying to eliminate it from their processes. The goal is to run out of this.

    Super Id: (Valued, Weak, Unconscious): This is the unconscious motivator function. This is what the person wants to attain underneath, this functions represents completion of the Ego function, the full perspective.

    Id: (Strong, Devalued, Unconscious): This is the unconscious base function. It always exists as a perfect mirror the ego function, as this is the pure primal function of the psyche. For example, if the ego function was designed around cleaning a room(hypothetical scenario), the Id functions would see all the messy aspects, it is the natural unconscious perspective.


    Part 2 coming up momentarily; information elements and functional definition.
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    .The second part of understanding Model B comes from understand exactly what the functions represent. The important thing to realize with the functions is they are supposed to be representative of aspects of reality, which is why they were given very precise definitions.

    = internal statics of objects
    = external statics of objects
    = external dynamics of objects
    = internal dynamics of objects
    = internal dynamics of fields
    = external dynamics of fields
    = external statics of fields
    = internal statics of fields


    The first dichotomy I'm going to discuss here is Dynamic v.s. Static, as its probably the most misunderstood dichotomy on the forum. The reason that it is incredibly misunderstood, as in all scenarios that it is used on the forum, it is thought about in an applied sense, which wasn't how Augustinavičiūtė defined it. Most people on the forum end up classifying Dynamic as observing objects in motion, and Static as observing the pieces of things as being separate. And this is right to an extent, it's just thought about in a very horrible way. A better way to describe Dynamic processes would be flowing and natural.

    The internal external dichotomy refers to whether or not something is tangible or subjective(a better explanation will come with the functions).

    The objects fields dichotomy refers to whether or not the thing being observed is a singular object or a relative framework of multiple singular frameworks.



    In terms of the functions they work like this (Model B explanation included).

    Extraverted Intuition: Internal Statics of Objects(Subjective, fixated, Physical) Typically refers to the subjective values that are applied to things within the objective space. Inherent values of things, what something is capable of.

    Introverted Intuition: Internal Dynamics of Fields(Subjective, gestalt, abstract): Ni is kind of that thing underneath, that connects all the processes in a person together to give an abstract perspective on reality. The feeling of how things are flowing, where things are going. It's kind of like the soul of a person.

    An analogy to use to understand Model B's inside/outside dynamic is this.... Ni is kind of like the projector, it gives a full picture, its how the person interprets reality. Ne is kind of like the things on the screen. Ni gives the overall view, Ne is how the individual views things at a more focused level based on that overall view(or that the overall view is built from the more focused level).

    +Ne/-Ni (Alpha,Beta)
    The -Ni portion of the function feels separate, unique; the one green jelly bean in a can full of red ones.
    The +Ne portion tends to view things as not having lived up to their potential. +Ne always wants more. It values the absurd and the abnormal; whether it be spiritually, scientifically, etc, +Ne always wants to find something more interesting than it already knew. The downside of this is the alien complex, when things aren't going their way, they feel as if they are flawed and scarred.

    -Ne/+Ni (Gamma,Delta)
    The +Ni portion feels connected, integrated, a person of the network. A red jelly bean in a can full of red ones. The -Ne portion tends to view things as being perfect as they are, which often leaves the individual with this as a valued function as having a loyalty complex. Desires to keep things normalized, running smoothly.


    More coming soon. Also, I'll correct some stuff if it's unclear.
    Last edited by Hitta; 07-22-2012 at 02:07 AM.
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    ......
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    ..........
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    Does Gulenko use Model B for these descriptions or do they look like something else?: http://www.socioniks.net/biblioteka/.../funk_tip.html
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    bump
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    doesnt model B look like

    Alpha
    -Ne/+Si
    +Ti/-Fe

    Beta
    -Ni/+Se
    +Fe/-Ti

    Gamma
    +Ni/-Se
    -Te/+Fi

    Delta
    +Ne/-Si
    -Fi/+Te
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    doesnt model B look like

    Alpha
    -Ne/+Si
    +Ti/-Fe

    Beta
    -Ni/+Se
    +Fe/-Ti

    Gamma
    +Ni/-Se
    -Te/+Fi

    Delta
    +Ne/-Si
    -Fi/+Te
    Nah, model B is a 16 component model created by Bukalov, Gulenkos just been tinkering with the +/- signs for a long time

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    ok, so -Se will team up with -Ni, etc... among the same quadras?
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    ok, so -Se will team up with -Ni, etc... among the same quadras?
    Well think about it, if -Ni/+Ne craves the unique, believes in standing out; the action orientation of that, when flipped around to the sensing types would be about the attack. Alphas and Betas typically have a very attacking mentality to what they do, of course the Alphas have a more neutral attacking position so it doesn't come off as being as aggressive as Betas, but I'll get to that later.

    With the opposite situation, +Se is more about willpower and stability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    bump
    Hitta, I need your help in understanding this please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Hitta, I need your help in understanding this please.
    Which parts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    Which parts?
    The chart you put up with all the pluses and minuses next to them, each type has the same ones, how is that possible? What is that meant to indicate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    The chart you put up with all the pluses and minuses next to them, each type has the same ones, how is that possible? What is that meant to indicate?
    Read what I wrote in the first two posts, the functions are only facets of reality that everyone uses, as described per the information element definitions. Model A is incomplete, Model B completes it by filling in the blanks.
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    Bukalov's descriptions are not very informative. What do you see in this model?

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    I thought you were done with socionics, hitta?
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I thought you were done with socionics, hitta?
    Horoscopes told him to get back to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I thought you were done with socionics, hitta?
    Well so many people have asked me about the model, that I thought it was necessary to make a overview thread explaining the model.
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    does Model B have the power to save us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    The chart you put up with all the pluses and minuses next to them, each type has the same ones, how is that possible? What is that meant to indicate?
    What model B does is close a circle we all see from Model A but no-one likes to discuss; that in behaviour is driven by information elements by seeing 'positives' or 'negatives' to using those elements at all.

    e.g. in that as ILI I find social pressure determining what is right to be downright repugnant as Fe is in my super-ego; it is something to be fought against not to be striven for.

    This is due to me having only a experience based understanding of empathy (the lowest order) and is why I need to relate to it through others who can engage other functions and illustrate through those.
    Last edited by InvisibleJim; 07-22-2012 at 10:18 PM.

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    Bump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    What model B does is close a circle we all see from Model A but no-one likes to discuss; that in behaviour is driven by information elements by seeing 'positives' or 'negatives' to using those elements at all.
    Why, for instance, does the ILI in that model have both a plus next to Ni and a minus? It doesn't make sense, shouldn't it just have only one? And if it's a plus next to Ni, does that mean it produces Ni, but minus next to Ni means it doesn't produce/accept it? I don't get that.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    e.g. in that as ILI I find social pressure determining what is right to be downright repugnant as Fe is in my super-ego; it is something to be fought against not to be striven for.
    I understand that you don't strive towards Fe, hence that would give you a minus next to Fe, correct?



    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    This is due to me having only a experience based understanding of empathy (the lowest order) and is why I need to relate to it through others who can engage other functions and illustrate through those.
    again back to why there are two of each symbol with contradicting marks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    Why, for instance, does the ILI in that model have both a plus next to Ni and a minus? It doesn't make sense, shouldn't it just have only one? And if it's a plus next to Ni, does that mean it produces Ni, but minus next to Ni means it doesn't produce/accept it? I don't get that.

    I understand that you don't strive towards Fe, hence that would give you a minus next to Fe, correct?

    again back to why there are two of each symbol with contradicting marks
    Ni is rejected where Ne is accepted in the heirarchy; so if I want to play with my Ne in the super-ego, yes, I can but I lose my Ni insights. Particularly if I need to interact with people. This is why it is particularly difficult to spot Ni ego because interaction causes Ni to be dropped.

    Well, what it notices is that where Fi is mobilising, Fe is blind in the super-id.

    I don't think it's something that can't be spotted simply by looking at Model A with a discerning eye. Ti users just need to add more detail to feel that they add value however

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Ni is rejected where Ne is accepted in the heirarchy; so if I want to play with my Ne in the super-ego, yes, I can but I lose my Ni insights. Particularly if I need to interact with people. This is why it is particularly difficult to spot Ni ego because interaction causes Ni to be dropped.

    Well, what it notices is that where Fi is mobilising, Fe is blind in the super-id.

    I don't think it's something that can't be spotted simply by looking at Model A with a discerning eye. Ti users just need to add more detail to feel that they add value however
    I feel bad because all I do is BENEFIT from you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    I feel bad because all I do is BENEFIT from you
    in bed

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    @bionichitta --- finish this imo.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bionichitta View Post
    Ne/-Ni (Alpha,Beta)
    The -Ni portion of the function feels separate, unique; the one green jelly bean in a can full of red ones.
    The +Ne portion tends to view things as not having lived up to their potential. +Ne always wants more. It values the absurd and the abnormal; whether it be spiritually, scientifically, etc, +Ne always wants to find something more interesting than it already knew. The downside of this is the alien complex, when things aren't going their way, they feel as if they are flawed and scarred.
    If analogy correct then I feel a bit like a flawed & fluorescent green jelly bean!
    Last edited by Shay; 10-21-2012 at 12:30 PM.

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    Fuck it, this ain't perfect, but it's colorful and concise with the words and shit, so here goes banged this out while I was on the toilet. If you can use it for something, awesome.

    + = maximization of good shit
    - = minimization of bad shit

    Alpha - -Se +Fi +Ne -Ti -Ni +Te +Si -Fe
    . Ti-ILE . Ti-LII . Fe-ESE . Fe-SEI .
    merry - -Se . . +Ne . . -Ni . . +Si . .
    . Ti-SLE . Ti-LSI . Fe-EIE . Fe-IEI .
    Betaa - -Se -Fi +Ne +Ti -Ni -Te +Si +Fe
    . Se-SLE . Se-LSI . Ni-EIE . Ni-IEI .
    dcsiv - . . -Fi . . +Ti . . -Te . . +Fe
    . Se-SEE . Se-ESI . Ni-LIE . Ni-ILI .
    Gamma - +Se -Fi -Ne +Ti +Ni -Te -Si +Fe
    . Fi-SEE . Fi-ESI . Te-LIE . Te-ILI .
    srius - +Se . . -Ne . . +Ni . . -Si . .
    . Fi-IEE . Fi-EII . Te-LSE . Te-SLI .
    Delta - +Se +Fi -Ne -Ti +Ni +Te -Si -Fe
    . Ne-IEE . Ne-EII . Si-LSE . Si-SLI .
    judic - . . +Fi . . -Ti . . +Te . . -Fe
    . Ne-ILE . Ne-LII . Si-ESE . Si-SEI .

    +Se -> build glacially and conservatively
    -Se -> destroy, risk equals reward
    +Fi -> make friends
    -Fi -> banish enemies
    +Ne -> hunt for inherent potential
    -Ne -> keep shit on track
    +Ti -> boldly theorize
    -Ti -> hunt down logical fallacies
    +Ni -> SOMEBODY ELSE FILL THIS IN PLZ
    -Ni -> SOMEBODY ELSE FILL THIS IN PLZ
    +Te -> maximize raw quantity of resources, hoard
    -Te -> maximize usage of limited resources, budget
    +Si -> proactively make shit feel good
    -Si -> eliminate physical discomfort, maintain equillibrium of health
    +Fe -> let your feelings out
    -Fe -> keep the peace

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    I know this thread is old, but has anyone considered

    The definition of democratic and aristocratic types:
    Democrats have + irrational elements and – rational elements
    Aristocrats have – irrational elements and + rational elements

    and the definition of process and results types:
    Process types have
    + accepting functions and – producing functions
    Results types
    have accepting functions and + producing functions

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