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Thread: Introverted Sensing Si as information element vs. self-preservation SP instinct

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    Post Introverted Sensing Si as information element vs. self-preservation SP instinct

    How does Socionics Si differ from sp instinct in Enneagram?

    Si themes (from wikisocion):
    harmony, pleasure, health, comfort, pleasantness, satisfaction, convenience, quality, cosiness, aesthetics
    sp focus (from http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/200...stackings.html ):
    likely to most of the time be calm, centered, thoughtful, especially aesthetic, orderly, mindful of health issues, and concerned about establishing optimum comfort and tranquility in their environment.

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    the instincts aren't about cognitive lenses but more about.. energy flow? there are people here who can describe this really well but I'm not one of them.

    I'm sp first and I'm not especially into the health and homemaking stuff. its just when it comes to priorities what I'm mostly likely to get neurotic and panicky and must-fix-now about is usually self centered and material, do I have enough food, do I have enough physical space, etc. its not like cultivating and flourishing in that stuff. its like its a point of attention and priority.

    idk if this explains it very well but I don't have time atm. I like the question.

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    In theory they're different (Si is about awareness of environmental influences on bodily/inner states, sp is about ensuring your bodily needs are met/will continue to be met above sx and so concerns) - how they're similar is in how they manifest in reality (the descriptions in the OP). So while the results may be similar, the motivations are different.

    Also, as lungs kind of touched on, Se is also compatible with sp, e.g. acquiring cool stuff, not getting sick and heaving enough money to do stuff etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    I still don't really understand the difference, two years later... Like how would you differentiate between the two when typing someone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolShrimp View Post
    I still don't really understand the difference, two years later... Like how would you differentiate between the two when typing someone?
    lol u just need a SLE or LIE to beat u up

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    Nothing. They need to self preserve because they have hyperactive duals who need to relax and rest

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolShrimp View Post
    How does Socionics Si differ from sp instinct in Enneagram?

    Si themes (from wikisocion):


    sp focus (from http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/200...stackings.html ):
    What makes you think their eg harmony (at top of list) corresponds with eg (calm) sp? It's an introverted function and for all you know harmony to this function means that in their mind harmony comes from nothing like the extraverted defintion of calm, but harmony will come from destruction of what's already there. Just putting it out there.

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    Inversely as Ni, i don't relate to Sp at all.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    the instincts aren't about cognitive lenses but more about.. energy flow? there are people here who can describe this really well but I'm not one of them.

    I'm sp first and I'm not especially into the health and homemaking stuff. its just when it comes to priorities what I'm mostly likely to get neurotic and panicky and must-fix-now about is usually self centered and material, do I have enough food, do I have enough physical space, etc. its not like cultivating and flourishing in that stuff. its like its a point of attention and priority.

    idk if this explains it very well but I don't have time atm. I like the question.
    Hey yeah, it's kind of the same for me. Si-egos seem to be highly aware of their inner states and incorporate them, almost seamlessly, into their lives. But for me it's something I have to try and focus on, something that if I ignore or neglect, it will bite me in the ass later when it creates associated disharmony and poor health/performance. So my motivation is to avoid these things through some kind of meta-cognitive planning, while an Si ego seems motivated to enhance harmony.

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    Default self preservation fours - socionics Si?

    This description of self preservation fours made me think of socionics Si:

    Self-Preservation 4 - Seeking Safety/Comfort

    • Udit Patel "The Sensualist (Ichazo's "Reckless/Dauntless")"

      Self-Preservation Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity on their concerns about their immediate environment and on their quest for physical comfort. They attempt to deal with emotional issues by surrounding themselves with as much luxury and beauty as they can afford, by indulging in their favorite foods, and by giving themselves "consolation prizes" for their suffering. They might be disappointed about a job situation or a failing relationship, and so stay up late at night drinking expensive cognac and watching a favorite movie. Self-Pres Fours are particularly sensitive to comfort issues—the temperature of a room, the quality of the lighting, the humidity or lack of it, the weather—all produce powerful emotional responses. Self-Pres Fours become frustrated that the environment is insufficiently attuned to their personal needs. Attempts to control the environment and self-indulgence in rich foods, drink, drugs, or other sensual distractions can exhaust Self-Pres Fours, leaving them unable to function well outside of their own narrowing world.
    Thoughts?

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    By that logic, every sp-first type will sound Si.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    By that logic, every sp-first type will sound Si.
    I looked up the other sp type descriptions to compare, only the four description talks specifically about being sensitive to room temperature, lighting, etc. and wanting to attune the environment to one's own needs, which I'd associate with Socionics Si. The others are more generally about health and security. Maybe sp-4 is Si base in socionics and others are Si conflated with some other function, or weak/unvalued Si, eg. sp-1's could be Te + Si, so ESTj in socionics, sp-2 could be Fe+Si (ESFj), etc.


    Self-Preservation 1
    - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel Self-Control (Ichazo's "Anxiety")

      Self-Preservation Ones focus their resentment and perfectionism in areas of health, self-management, and homemaking. They are not necessarily worked up about the plight of refugees in the Third World but may have very firm convictions about proper diet and exercise or the best way to maintain one's household or family budget. Self-Pres Ones like to be organized, to have their life structured, and their possessions put in their proper place. They are neat, punctual, and fastidious—sometimes to a fault. They believe that controlling the "dirt" and chaos in their lives will enhance their well being, even their survival. It seems to them that a well-ordered life is the best hedge against chaos and danger, and they are concerned that any mistakes on their part could have dire consequences. Thus, they tend to be careful and meticulous in the planning of their lives. Many Self-Pres Ones also take an active interest in preventative health matters: vitamins, cleansing diets and fasts, exercise routines, alternative medicine, and cutting-edge medical knowledge.



    Self-Preservation 2 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel Entitlement (Ichazo's "Me First")

      Twos typically deal with their own self-preservation needs by first taking care of others' self-preservation needs. They feel that they will win others' love by providing them with nurturing and caretaking. They derive a great deal of satisfaction from feelings of service to others or to causes. They are able to anticipate people's needs and then try to fulfill them. ("You poor thing, you look hungry.") Of course, after taking care of others for a while, Self-Pres Twos begin to expect that others will reciprocate and take care of their needs. But because they are Twos, they feel that they cannot ask directly for what they need. They must drop hints and continue to take care of the other person with the hope that he or she will eventually respond with care for the Two. Over time, this gives Self-Pres Twos a feeling of entitlement. ("After all I've done for them, I deserve this treat.") The problem is that Self Pres Twos feel ashamed of having physical needs. Thus, when others fail to reciprocate in the way that Twos hope, they may privately overindulge in self-preservation "goodies"—comfort foods, sweets, drink, and prescription medicines are frequent choices. They keep hidden stashes of their favorite indulgences as a way of compensating for feelings of loneliness and rejection. Unfortunately, the rewards that Self Pres Twos give themselves often endanger their health and well being, which ironically, undermines their ability to help others.



    Self-Preservation 3 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel The Workaholic (Ichazo's "Security")

      Self-Preservation Threes feel their value is dependent on their ability to take care of basic security needs. They strive to be practical and to make sure that they and their family have more-than-adequate resources. For many Threes this means some kind of financial success. Thus, Self Pres Threes work constantly to ensure they are building up a solid foundation. The problem is that they often find themselves unable to stop working. Because they believe their personal value is at stake, they cannot easily slow down or lighten their workload. To even take a weekend off could lead to financial failure—or so they believe. This lifestyle eventually takes its toll on their health and relationships. They may fit regular work-outs at the gym into their busy schedules in order to stay healthy but frequently neglect to rest and take quiet time. Others can find it difficult to make intimate contact with Self-Pres Threes once they are caught up in their drive for security and success.

      Of the three instinctual variants of this type, the Self-Pres Three has the most difficulty contacting feelings. They tend to express affection through accomplishing things for their partner and by meeting practical expectations. But they may begin to see all of their relationships in terms of functional roles, transactions, task lists, and how well they and the people in their lives are fulfilling these roles. While this can be efficient up to a point, it often ends up creating distance between Self-Pres Threes and the people they care about.


    Self-Preservation 4 - Seeking Safety/Comfort

    • Udit Patel "The Sensualist (Ichazo's "Reckless/Dauntless")"

      Self-Preservation Fours focus their envy and hypersensitivity on their concerns about their immediate environment and on their quest for physical comfort. They attempt to deal with emotional issues by surrounding themselves with as much luxury and beauty as they can afford, by indulging in their favorite foods, and by giving themselves "consolation prizes" for their suffering. They might be disappointed about a job situation or a failing relationship, and so stay up late at night drinking expensive cognac and watching a favorite movie. Self-Pres Fours are particularly sensitive to comfort issues—the temperature of a room, the quality of the lighting, the humidity or lack of it, the weather—all produce powerful emotional responses. Self-Pres Fours become frustrated that the environment is insufficiently attuned to their personal needs. Attempts to control the environment and self-indulgence in rich foods, drink, drugs, or other sensual distractions can exhaust Self-Pres Fours, leaving them unable to function well outside of their own narrowing world.



    Self-Preservation 5 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel Isolation (Ichazo's "Castle")

      Self-Preservation Fives are the most introverted Fives—the Fives most likely to seek long periods of privacy and solitude. The hoarding of the Five is focused in the areas of practical resources, living quarters, and personal space. Self-Pres Fives attempt to find out how few self-preservation needs they can subsist on, likely agreeing with Thoreau's statement that "A man is rich in proportion to what he can do without." They are intensely private people who seem to require few comforts, even if they have substantial personal wealth. To some degree, they enjoy the company of trusted others and enjoy sharing their knowledge with people. They can also be counted on for their sense of whimsy and oddball humor. Nonetheless, Self-Pres Fives need lots of time by themselves to regenerate their energy. Many choose to live alone, or if they are in a partnership, they require personal space (such as a study or a nook in the basement) into which others, even loved ones, will not intrude. They also tend to hoard personal effects, stockpiling their homes like castles preparing for a siege. As much as they may like and admire others, they attempt to keep their relationships few and simple, so that they can focus on what holds interest for them.

    Self-Preservation 6 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel "Responsibility (Ichazo's "Affection")"

      Self-Preservation Sixes find their security through safeguarding resources—money, food, property, shelter, and so forth—and tend to chronically worry about these things. ("Have the bills been paid?" "Have the car's brakes been checked recently?" "Do we have enough insurance?") They care a great deal about safety and thrift. Indeed, Self-Pres Sixes feel most secure when they are responsible for financial matters, and believe that their effective running of these affairs is something they can contribute. When they are less secure, however, they do not trust others to be responsible. They need to be constantly informed, if not entirely in control, of practical matters that affect them. Self-Pres Sixes can be funny and friendly and want to be involved and engaged, but they have difficulty relaxing, especially around unfamiliar others. They are more introverted and more likely to be loners than the other Sixes. When more stressed, they may stay in punishing situations longer than they should (bad jobs, bad marriages) or become concerned with having control of resources, like a less healthy Eight.

    Self-Preservation 7 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel "Getting Mine (Ichazo's "Defenders")"

      Self-Preservation Sevens are the most materialistic Sevens. This does not necessarily mean that they are always accumulating possessions, but they do thoroughly enjoy the things of the material world. They also enjoy thinking about acquiring possessions and experiences. Thus, reading catalogues, restaurant guides, movie reviews, travel books, and brochures is often a favorite pastime. Generally, however, they are not daydreamers: they want to actually do or buy the things they are thinking about. Exploring the different pleasures the world offers seems to Self-Pres Sevens what life is about. They love shopping and are especially thrilled by the prospect of getting a great bargain—obtaining the desired object or experience at well below the "normal" cost. Thus, they tend to be the person to consult for a good hotel in a particular city or to find the best place to buy a new laptop computer. Often, they will cultivate other friends who are knowledgeable about mutual interests to exchange information about bargains and to stay up with the newest developments available. Many Self-Pres Sevens like to "live large" and may spend more than they can afford to sustain their appetite for experience and luxury. Unconsciously, they may have unrealistic expectations that the world should provide them with whatever they need on demand. To the extent that Sevens succumb to this expectation, they are likely to be frustrated and disappointed.



    Self-Preservation 8 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel "Responsibility (Ichazo's "Affection")"

      Self-Preservation Eights most live out the Eights' need for independence through the accumulation of power, position, and, sometimes, material wealth. That is not to say that all Self-Pres Eights are wealthy—most are not—but that this Variant seeks to have and to control whatever resources they can in order to maintain their independence and dominance. Thus, these Eights make shrewd business people and politicians and are extremely practical, approaching life with a tough-minded pragmatism they see as being simply "realistic." Often private people, their home is very important to them. Whether man or woman, the Self-Pres Eight rules the roost and is likely to control resources within the household. Positively, they are often excellent providers and have a way of landing on their feet no matter what life throws at them. Trouble spots include difficulty empathizing with the needs of others, especially if they perceive others as weak or ineffectual. Self-Pres Eights most typify the shrewd, pragmatic, wheeler-dealer aspect of this personality type.

    Self-Preservation 9 - Seeking Saftey/Comfort

    • Udit Patel The Comfort Seeker (Ichazo's "Appetite")

      Self-Preservation Nines are perhaps the most easygoing Nines, but they are also the most likely to need time alone, untroubled by other people's influence and requirements. They seek a sense of well-being through comfort: familiar routines, "comfort foods," and a supportive, uncomplicated environment are all highly valued. Self-Pres Nines have their own way of doing things, their own pace, and their own philosophy of life, and they will stubbornly resist any effort to change any of these things. Self-Pres Nines are also people of few words, preferring to communicate in nonverbal ways. They often pretend to be less savvy and aware than they actually are, as if tempting other people to underestimate them—so that they will be left alone. Positively, they are grounded and patient, possessing a great deal of common sense. They tend to have problems with overindulging themselves in food and drink, or conversely with rigorously controlling their diets—this is especially true of Self-Pres Nines with the One wing. They may also lack physical exercise. In any case, having their routine and lifestyle change is very challenging for them.

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    I think sp relate to Si in a similar way as so relate to Fe, not the same thing but amplify each other.
    but why E4 sp specifically? I don't know but I can see hints of Si in most of the descriptions, maybe 8 sounds more like Se

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    usually whenever i read things in enneagram descriptions about adjusting the heater or the lighting, i disregard it, unless i can see a real link to the type (which i don't think adjusting the lighting to suit one's preferences is an important enneagram relevant sort of behavior). with the sp four, i think what it may do is buy things, or comfort eat, or indulge in drugs (or essentially become increasingly physically and materially wasteful - i mean, expressive) as compensation for the pain it feels it has endured. but also simply to be self-destructive and self-sabotaging - an art of type four. i suspect even an polr can manage self-destructive hedonism? (but i'm curious about this question too.)

    that said, one way that i could totally see type four getting touchy about the lighting or heating or whatever, is to use it as a way to be dramatic, and to show how "nothing is right." no matter what you adjust these silly things to it's always just too bright, or just too dark... or too hot, or too cold. it's always wrong. (this could be a piece of a larger dramatic fit to play out. many fours may tend to complain a lot - and you need *something* to complain about: your food, or the temperature, may not be the most profound subjects, but they will do...)

    in other words, what is missing, is from the environment in this case.
    Last edited by inumbra; 10-05-2015 at 05:18 PM.

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    We had some discussions concerning the overlaps between instincts and socionics types before, particularly Socionics Si vs. SP Self-Pres and "Aristocracy" vs. Social (SO) Instinct, but there hasn't been much progress made in differentiating them. Enneagram is not well known in Russian speaking socionics study groups, so they are not aware of these strange overlaps in prescribed traits between the two typologies. They tend to attribute any differences to Psychosophy, a subtyping system closely related to socionics, while discounting Enneagram.

    From my own observations, I would say that a lot of what gets attributed to Si in socionics is actually related to enneagram's SP instinct, and that socionics definitions of Si over-attribute too many traits to Si that have little to do with it, and are thus in need of revision. This also gives rise to a trend in typing that I've noticed in socionics communities where SP-last people would strongly doubt being part of Si/Ne quadra, because they simply can't seen themselves valuing comfort, convenience, and other physical stimuli to any significant extent, and only later, through intertypes and other socionics information, could they sidestep these notions about Si and find their type.
    Last edited by silke; 12-16-2017 at 11:23 PM.

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    Udit Patel's description of self-preservation 5's is an extremely accurate description of my ex, who is an SLI-Te (si-dom). Every word is true.

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    My mom is an LSI so/sp 136. I have been reading through the links here and found a few things that are making me doubt the syn-flow, contra-flow theory. First off she is very focused on security and comfort but she was very socially involved in the church, voted, did whatever civil duties required of her. I typed her so/sp primarily on the contra-flow concept and the romance style I saw on another site. This is starting to confuse me because she has a bit of a cold logical exterior, as her general disposition, but when she is involved with groups she is a totally different person. All smiles and warmer to strangers than to her own family. She recently had a life altering event that has made her a warmer person toward our family. She was always warmer to my other siblings than me. I think she resented all the money and social shame I cost her during my teenage years. We are past that now though.

    Anyway I am now not sure if she is an so/sp 1 or an sp/so 1.

    I wonder if she is a so/sp that seems more sp first under stress.

    Under Stress (One goes to average Four)

    Ones begin to feel alienated and moody when they sense that others do not take them or their values seriously. They feel obligated to do the work they believe others will not do—or will not do as well—and they become more resentful. They feel misunderstood by their peers and often withdraw from others to sort out their feelings, much like average-to-unhealthy Fours. Similarly, Ones under prolonged stress can become disillusioned with themselves and their lot in life. Over time, they can become depressed and isolated, often turning to self-indulgent behavior in an attempt to feel better. They allow themselves various "escape hatches" —indulgences that go against their expressed values in some way. For instance, a One who is scrupulously observing rigorous health regimens and diets might start treating herself to ice cream sodas or chocolate bars. Guilt usually follows, leaving her more depressed and critical of herself.
    This also fits her pretty well.

    - Seeking Saftey/Comfort


    • Udit Patel Self-Control (Ichazo's "Anxiety")

      Self-Preservation Ones focus their resentment and perfectionism in areas of health, self-management, and homemaking. They are not necessarily worked up about the plight of refugees in the Third World but may have very firm convictions about proper diet and exercise or the best way to maintain one's household or family budget. Self-Pres Ones like to be organized, to have their life structured, and their possessions put in their proper place. They are neat, punctual, and fastidious—sometimes to a fault. They believe that controlling the "dirt" and chaos in their lives will enhance their well being, even their survival. It seems to them that a well-ordered life is the best hedge against chaos and danger, and they are concerned that any mistakes on their part could have dire consequences. Thus, they tend to be careful and meticulous in the planning of their lives. Many Self-Pres Ones also take an active interest in preventative health matters: vitamins, cleansing diets and fasts, exercise routines, alternative medicine, and cutting-edge medical knowledge.
    But then again so does this but not so much in terms of bringing attention to things. More like jumping in and doing her part. I know social status was very important to her but so was security,

    Social Ones: The Crusader (Ichazo's "Inadaptability")

    Social Ones focus their perfectionism in the social realm; thus, they are interested in local and world affairs. What is going on with the school district? Has that new environmental legislation been passed? Why doesn't anyone care about the enormous problem of world hunger? Social Ones take these issues personally, and they devote their time and energy to bringing people's attention to social ills. In other words, they do not want merely to talk about problems, they want to get involved and take action. While they may work tirelessly for the causes that they care about, Social Ones may have trouble developing a personal life. They are not particularly interested in social ease, for themselves or for others; rather, they are concerned with finding the "right way" for people to conduct themselves with one another. When they are more identified with this attitude, they may feel that others do not know what is best for them. With regard to themselves, Social Ones feel that personal needs can be addressed only after more pressing social problems have been faced. This zeal can be hard on their families and intimates, but people are often amazed by the strength of the Social One's convictions and are grateful for the good work that they contribute to the community.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




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    Default Si information element vs. self-preservation instinct

    What distinguishes the two? When considering whether someone is sp-last or Si polr, how can you tell when someone is one and not the other, both, or neither?

    What is an sp-last Si ego like? What is an sp-last Si suggestive type like ( @Chae ), or even an sp-last Si HA type?

    What is an sp-first Si polr type like?

    Do sp-last Si polr types behave in any notable ways, considering they should be the worst in terms of caring about health?

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    To me instinctual stacking is just what you care most about, is most important and how you focus your energy: sp 1 person, sx 2 people, so +3 people. It indicates if you are focused in yourself, your partner, or groups. It doesnt contradicts or is related to functions necessarily.

    To answer your question a Si Sp last would be selfless, like caring most about others (well being, opinions, comfort, safety etc) than for his/herself.

    I know a lot of ppl Sp first who are not Si egos. You can find some in this forum. EIEs, LIEs can be Sp first, it would just make them focused on themselves. How they would be, it depends on a lot of factors like sociotype, enneatype and the whole order of their i.stacking not just your first instinct.
    Last edited by Crystal; 10-30-2017 at 06:24 PM.


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    A good rule when comparing typologies is, if the descriptions overlap then the people they describe are going to overlap too.
    The higher, the fewer

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    Very good topic. Okay, with the example you gave:

    A person's focus -> instinct priority in the stacking. WHAT/WHY*?
    Perceiving the topic per se ->
    socionics element. HOW?

    Si is evaluating how good you feel in the moment.
    SP is focusing on providing for yourself, including this very feeling, but it's not mandatory. It's a drive from childhood, how you choose to survive. In this case, on your own as SP is not a people-dependent as SX and SO. It doesn't have to include cognition.


    This is how it merges.
    SP last :Si: suggestive: I am unable to create comfort for myself but I wish I could. But my focus really is elsewhere - I prefer stimulating activity. I do readily accept anything that puts me at ease while I myself might have completely forgotten about it. For instance, I'm so busy with hobbies/interests (, SX) and connecting to people at close range (, SX-->SO) that I barely remember to eat sometimes, or procrastinate sleeping. Even small SP things like budget management are forgotten. A reminder of that comes as a surprise but I like it.



    *WHY is also connected to the person's enneagram. So I for instance am interacting and busy with interests to feel a sense of accomplishment and worth through action, just doing something (3).
    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    This doesn't take a grain of salt, it takes a: BIG ASS SALTY ASS FREAKING ASS GAY MOUNTAIN!

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    What is an sp-last Si ego like?
    Charming.

    What is an sp-first Si polr type like?
    Hard working.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    To me instinctual stacking is just what you care most about, is most important and how you focus your energy: sp 1 person, sx 2 people, so +3 people. It indicates if you are focused in yourself, your partner, or groups. It doesnt contradicts or is related to functions necessarily.

    To answer your question a Si Sp last would be selfless, like caring most about others (well being, opinions, comfort, safety etc) than for his/herself.

    I know a lot of ppl Sp first who are not Si egos. You can find some in this forum. EIEs, LIEs can be Sp first, it would just make them focused on themselves. How they would be, it depends on a lot of factors like sociotype, enneatype and the whole order of their i.stacking not just your first instinct.
    I see, that makes sense. I wasn't thinking about the instincts like that before. So Sp-first EIEs/LIEs would just be focused on their own goals more than Sp-last ones would, instead of being more oriented toward physical maintenance like food, healthcare, and exercise (which are stereotypically associated with Sp)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    This is how it merges.
    SP last :Si: suggestive: I am unable to create comfort for myself but I wish I could. But my focus really is elsewhere - I prefer stimulating activity. I do readily accept anything that puts me at ease while I myself might have completely forgotten about it. For instance, I'm so busy with hobbies/interests (, SX) and connecting to people at close range (, SX-->SO) that I barely remember to eat sometimes, or procrastinate sleeping. Even small SP things like budget management are forgotten. A reminder of that comes as a surprise but I like it.
    So there's two dimensions, how good one is at creating comfort/keeping up with physical maintenance and how much one likes it. SP last are bad at it, but can either like it when others help them with it or not like it, depending on whether they are Si valuing?

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    Viewing them like this for comparison shows how different they really are. I have seen them confused many times. Sp is a more of a "me first" drive. "Me first" can also extend to what is their's including family. It is going to look different depending which Si ego or Si polr type and their enneagram too. The more balanced someone becomes the harder it will be to tell what their primary instinct is.

    A few words can be said in general about the various instincts. The instinct for self-preservation is attuned to the protection of the self, to its needs, health, comforts, security, and stability. This instinct is the strongest and most fundamental in virtually all life forms, and can easily override the other instincts should the life or safety of the individual be in immediate danger. In such threatening conditions, all of us are dominated by the instinct for self-preservation. But, in more general circumstances, when our health, life or security is not obviously or immediately endangered, this instinct will take a back seat, if the individual is dominated by the sexual or social instincts.

    Claudio Naranjo describes the dominant instinct as a “weakness which looks like a strength.” By this, he seems to have meant that, as the dominant instinct is overdeveloped, it certainly will attend to the needs associated with that instinct; in this sense it appears to be a strength. But, as the instinct is unbalanced and guided by a fixated personality, it is not being properly utilized, and, in this disturbed state often does not actually best serve the overall interests of the individual who is in its grip.

    Those individuals who are dominated by the instinct for self-preservation often have a grounded or practical quality; they frequently develop a high degree of self-sufficiency, discipline and maturity. Many self-pres subtypes devote themselves to programs for self-improvement and, of all the subtypes are probably the most “focused.” All of these qualities can clearly be beneficial, but when the personality is unbalanced, a dominant self-preservational instinct can manifest in an obsessive concern with questions of health, such as a focus on diet or exercise which might be punitive or otherwise excessive. Some self-pres types, when unbalanced, worry too much about health, mortality, finances or security. In fact, as life is ephemeral and safety an illusion, worry in general, of whatever sort, is a frequent manifestation of a dominant instinct for self-preservation.

    When the instinct for self-preservation is last in the instinctual stacking, the individual will often be somewhat ungrounded or seemingly “immature.” Such individuals often have a hard time focusing on issues such as financial security or the commitment to the development of practical skills. Sometimes, issues of health are ignored. In the more extroverted types, individuals who are self-pres last, often find it difficult to develop “inwardness.”

    https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.co...tual-subtypes/



    Introduction to

    Introverted sensing is an irrational, introverted, and dynamic information element. It is also referred to as Si, S, experiential sensing, or white sensing. Si is associated with the ability to internalize sensations and to experience them in full detail. Si focuses on tangible, direct (external) connections (introverted) between processes (dynamic) happening in one time, i.e. the physical, sensual experience of interactions between objects. This leads to an awareness of internal tangible physical states and how various physical fluctuations or substances are directly transferred between objects, such as motion, temperature, or dirtiness. The awareness of these tangible physical processes consequently leads to an awareness of health, or an optimum balance with one's environment. The individual physical reaction to concrete surroundings is main way we perceive and define aesthetics, comfort, convenience, and pleasure.

    In contrast to extroverted sensing (Se), is related to following one's own needs instead of focusing on some externally-driven conception of what is necessary to acquire or achieve. So, whereas Se ego types feel capable to evaluate how justified others' preferences are, Si ego types will try to adjust to them in any way possible (given that it does not extremely affect their own comfort), wishing to minimize conflict. In contrast to introverted intuition (Ni), Si is about direct interaction and unity (or discord) with one's surroundings, rather than abstract process and causal links.

    Types that value Si prefer to spend their time doing enjoyable activities rather than straining themselves to achieve goals. They like to believe that if activities are done with enjoyment, people will give them more effort and time, and also becoming more skilled at what they are doing in the long run. They believe that goals should suit people's intrinsic needs rather than shaped by the demands and constraints of the external world, and so do not try to force others into doing things they don't want to do. They also try to be easygoing and pleasant, preferring peaceful coexistence to conflict, except when their personal well-being or comfort is directly at stake.

    Si as Leading Function

    A strong ability to recognize internal physical states in themselves and others, to understand how these states are reached, and to recreate and avoid these physical states. Individuals who possess Si as a base function are drawn to situations that satisfy their inner physical experience. Whenever Si base function individuals are taking part in something that involves recognizing, recreating, or analyzing physical states, they feel a great deal of personal power and enthusiasm.

    The avoidance of discomfort is one of the primary motivations of these types. Feelings of internal discomfort can arise from a tense psychological atmosphere, working too hard and sapping the body's resources, being pressured by other people or by numerous "things to do," and from unsatiated or oversatiated physical needs. These types tend to quickly recognize and be quite vocal about discomfort that arises and either take clever measures to dissipate it or simply get out of whatever is bothering them. They are very receptive to other people sharing feelings of discomfort with them and can help alleviate the tension and offer good solutions.

    Si leading types are constantly adjusting themselves to their environment (which includes the people around them), and rarely have any fixed ideas about what is "appropriate" to desire in a given situation. Thus they are willing to accommodate other people's needs in an ad hoc manner. It is enough for something to "feel right" for them to justify doing it. This behavior may seem random to outside observers, since it is concomitant with weak Ni.
    Enneagram Instinctual Subtypes Chart

    Instinct
    Self-Preserving
    Myself
    Social
    All of Us
    Sexual
    You and Me
    Drive The search for Survival

    The search for Community

    The search for Intimacy
    Focus Self
    My World
    Group
    Our Greater World
    The Beloved
    Our Intimate World
    Desire Desire for Security

    Well being
    Food • Comfort • Safety
    Protection • Conservation
    Desire for Group

    Social Acceptance
    People • Recognition
    Popularity • Honor • Status
    Desire for Mate

    Pair Bonding
    Affinity • Closeness • Wholeness
    The other half • The beloved
    Fear Fear of Not Surviving

    Suspense • Poverty
    Illness • Endangerment
    Loss • Annihilation
    Fear of Not Belonging

    Loneliness • Low ranking
    Inferiority • Failure • Outcast
    Alienation • Isolation
    Fear of Undesirability

    Unworthiness • Letting go
    Brokenness • Incompleteness
    Disconnection • Invalidation

    Issue
    Living Issues

    To be or not to be
    How to be
    Relating Issues

    To relate or not to relate
    How to relate
    Intimacy Issues

    To be intimate or not to be intimate How to be intimate
    Preoccupation Coping

    Anxiety • Mortality • Health • Diets Obesity • Vigilance • Safety • Ease
    Finances • Nourishment • Time
    Essentials • Sensuality• Possessions
    Prestige

    Fellowship • Events • Cooperation
    Admiration • Pecking Order • Clubs High Ranking • Superiority •Glory Causes • Companionship • Fame
    Connection

    Intrigue • Encounters • Rivalry Attractiveness • Impulse • Passion
    The Best Friend • Revealing Self
    Eye Contact • Union • Glamour
    Strategy Caution or Self-destruction

    Aggressive-Defensive
    Logistics • Health Fanatic
    Constriction • Accumulating
    Conservation • Hoarding • Paranoia
    Sociability or unsociability

    Approval-Shame
    Philanthropy • Misanthropy
    Rigidity • Companionship
    Friendliness • Enmity • Achievement
    Abstinence or promiscuity

    Power-Submission
    Responsiveness • Creativity
    Imagination • Searching • Curiosity
    Gender Roles • Possessiveness
    Energy Conserved energy

    Grounded
    Somber • Heavy • Serious
    Stable • Consistent • Solid

    Split energy

    Cursory
    Personable • Superficial • Cooperative
    Superficial • Inconsistent • Rigid

    High energy

    Intense
    Playful • Light • Penetrating
    One on One • Passionate • Lyrical

    Theme
    Statements

    How am I?
    I am my body

    Am I secure?
    I am invincible

    I sacrifice for myself
    I must make it on my own
    Who am I?
    I am my group

    Am I popular?
    I am considerate

    I sacrifice for the group
    We can make it if we all cooperate
    What am I?
    I am my relationship

    Am I attractive?
    I am powerful

    I sacrifice for the relationship
    You and Me against the world
    1 Anxiety, worry, expectation 1 Rigid, non adaptable, righteous 1 Zeal, jealousy, rivalry, heat
    2 Entitlement, me first, privilege 2 Ambition, aspirations, devotee 2 Seduction, aggression,assault
    3 Security, accumulating, scarcity 3 Prestige, achievement, accolades 3 Masculine or feminine role, ideal
    Enneagram 4 Dauntless, tenacious, contained 4 Shame, honor, rejected elitist 4 Competition, hatred, idolatry
    Point 5 My home, my castle, hideout 5 Totem, identity, secret societies 5 Confidence, trust, supreme love
    Concerns 6 Warmth, affection or rejection 6 Dutiful, fellowship, social enforcer 6 Strength & beauty, provocative
    7 Chosen family or group security 7 Sacrifice for group, martyr 7 Fascination, suggestibility, charmer
    8 Satisfactory survival, territory 8 Comradeship, friends & foes 8 Possession, surrender, devotion
    9 Appetites, insatiable, collector 9 Peripheral participation, anchor 9 Union, merging, oneness,symbiosis
    Enneastyle • 650-327-4404 • Enneastyle@aol.com • enneagram.net • © 1995 KKH Chernick-Fauvre (rev.04)

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     




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    Quote Originally Posted by Saoirse View Post
    I see, that makes sense. I wasn't thinking about the instincts like that before. So Sp-first EIEs/LIEs would just be focused on their own goals more than Sp-last ones would, instead of being more oriented toward physical maintenance like food, healthcare, and exercise (which are stereotypically associated with Sp)?



    So there's two dimensions, how good one is at creating comfort/keeping up with physical maintenance and how much one likes it. SP last are bad at it, but can either like it when others help them with it or not like it, depending on whether they are Si valuing?
    I don't think sp first is related to health (not in the sense of having healthy habits necessarily at least). As Aylen said its related to 'me/my children/family' first, in the sense of I must survive. I know a lot of ppl sp first. They are focused in their own stuff. Not necessarily healthy, just taking care of their own needs over those of others. Sometimes looking kinda selfish.
    Last edited by Crystal; 10-31-2017 at 06:53 PM.

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    As a non sp-last individual with Si PoLR, I can give the appereance of being sp last due to said Si PoLR.

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    Sx is an instinct of self preservation and Si is information processing a persons sensational stuff. I guess that Sx people like having a home, food and stability in this area. Si lead people can be SxSo for example which can live like a hobo or something but still have a keen awareness of their sensations.

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