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Thread: Hatred of phonies

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    Default Hatred of phonies

    I often hear people say this but have no idea what they mean. If you hate phony people could use please explain your perspective to me? Examples would be nice.
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    Have you read JD Salinger's book "The Catcher in the Rye?" The protagonist in that story hates phonies, and much of the book is about this hatered of them. Perhaps you should read it.
     
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    Fake people, from the phrase 'phoning it in'. People who can never be honest about what they really like and really want, you never feel truly connected with them. (well what they're essentially doing is avoiding being disliked or ruining an external social reputation, which makes people dislike them even more.) They put on a front. They usually have good social skills because much of socialization is about keeping harmony/productivity going rather than being truly honest about one's desires. They say ESFj-ish 'fake nice' Fe things. Or maybe it's the other way around: They are rude and blunt to hide a big faggy heart. Either way is being fake to their true nature.

    I value honesty but being entertaining sometimes is better. They say that everybody is showing you a face. 9 times out of 10, the face they are showing you is not the real one. Actually, Faith said that in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (tv show) and I thought it was really interesting.

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    Those people are trying to figure themselves out. That or they got molested by their teacher. Pretty much the plot of Catcher in the Rye.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

  5. #5
    Creepy-male

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    It's being unauthentic. Basically acting one way but being a different way. You say you like something but you don't. Maybe because you are afraid of being different or because you are trying to accomplish something.

    A good realistic example is a salesmen, con-artist, lawyer or politician who is trying to sell you something or persuade you to something. They may pretend to enjoy your company in order to have the opportunity to sell you something so they can make out with the cash, they may even lie about the quality or price of their goods if they think you will buy it. This would lead to the idea of confidence games and con-artists, selling you a prospect for a better life in exchange for your money. You get the item or say thing, and it makes you feel hopeful or good for a little while before you become disinterested and realize now it was built on some false prospect. A lawyer that tries to sell a particular viewpoint on someone's innocence or guilt, they may be less concerned about the truth behind the case and more concerned with advocating their point of view in an argument to win. A politician who is trying to sell a particular message to people in order to win their acceptance and votes, that may be out of line with their own viewpoints.

    Also I would say that everyone puts up a front or image to some degree, its people's underlying motivation for that that matters.

    That's my take.

  6. #6
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Pretty much the plot of Catcher in the Rye.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catcher_in_the_rye

    The majority of the novel takes place in December 1949. The story commences with Holden Caulfield, the seventeen-year-old narrator and protagonist of Catcher, addressing the reader directly from a tuberculosis rest home in southern California. He tells a psychoanalyst about events which took place over a two-day period the previous December. It is a frame story, or long flashback, constructed through Holden's memory as he describes encounters he has had with students and faculty of Pencey Prep (scholars often compare Pencey Prep to Valley Forge Military Academy, which Salinger attended from the ages of 15 to 17) in Agerstown, Pennsylvania.[13] He criticizes them for being superficial, as Holden would say, "phony."

    Holden commences his story at Pencey Prep, an exclusive private school in Pennsylvania, on the Saturday afternoon of the traditional football game with school rival, Saxon Hall. Holden misses the game. As manager of the fencing team, he managed to lose the team's equipment on the subway that morning, resulting in the cancellation of a match in New York. He is on his way to the home of his history teacher, Mr. Spencer, to say good-bye. Holden has been expelled and is not to return after Christmas break, which commences the following Wednesday. Spencer is a well-meaning but long-winded old man. Much to Holden's annoyance, he makes Holden read aloud from his history examination paper, in which Holden wrote a note to Mr Spencer so that his teacher would not feel badly about failing him in the subject.

    Holden returns to the dorms, which are quiet because most of the students are at the football game. Wearing his new red hunting cap, he begins to read a book. His reverie is temporary; first, a dorm neighbor named Ackley disturbs him. Later, Holden argues with his roommate, Stradlater, who fails to appreciate a theme that Holden has written for him about Holden's deceased brother Allie's baseball glove. A womanizer, Stradlater has just returned from a date with Holden's old friend Jane Gallagher. Holden is distressed because he is scared that Stradlater might have taken advantage of Jane. Stradlater does not appreciate Jane in the manner in which Holden does; initially, he even thinks that Jane's name is 'Jean.' The two roommates fight, and Stradlater wins easily. Holden decides at this point that he has had enough of Pencey Prep, and catches a train to New York City, where he plans to stay in a hotel until Wednesday, when his parents expect him to return home for Christmas vacation.

    He checks into the dilapidated Edmont Hotel. After observing the behavior of the "perverts" in the hotel room facing his, he struggles with his own sexuality. He states that although he has had the opportunity to lose his virginity, the timing never felt right and he was always respectful when a girl said, 'no.' He spends an evening dancing with three tourist women in their thirties from Seattle in the hotel lounge, and enjoys dancing with one. but ends up with only the check. He finds it slightly frustrating because the women seem unable to carry a conversation. Following a disappointing visit to Ernie's Nightclub in Greenwich Village, Holden agrees to have a prostitute, Sunny, visit his room.[14] His attitude toward the prostitute changes the minute she enters the room, because she seems to be about the same age as Holden and he starts to view her as a person. Holden becomes uncomfortable with the situation, and when he tells her that all he wants to do is talk, she becomes annoyed with him and leaves. However, he still pays her for her time. Sunny and Maurice, her pimp, later return to Holden's hotel room and demand more money than was originally agreed upon. Despite the fact that Sunny takes five dollars from Holden's wallet, Maurice punches Holden in the stomach.

    After a short sleep, Holden telephones Sally Hayes, a familiar date, and agrees to meet her that afternoon to go to a play. Meanwhile, Holden leaves the hotel, checks his luggage at Grand Central Station, and has a late breakfast. He meets two nuns, one an English teacher, with whom he discusses Romeo and Juliet. Holden looks for a special record for his 10-year-old sister, Phoebe, called "Little Shirley Beans." He spots a small boy singing "If a body catches a body coming through the rye," which somehow makes Holden feel less depressed. After seeing the play with Sally featuring Broadway stars Alfred Lunt and Lynn Fontanne, the two go skating at Radio City, and while drinking Coke, Holden impulsively invites Sally to run away with him, but she declines. Her response deflates Holden's mood, which prompts a remark: "You give me a royal pain in the ass, if you want to know the truth." He regrets it immediately, and Sally storms off as Holden follows, pleading with her to accept his apology. Finally, Holden gives up and leaves her there, sees the Christmas show at Radio City Music Hall, endures a movie, and gets very drunk. Throughout the novel, Holden has been worried about the ducks in the lagoon at Central Park. He tries to find them but only manages to break Phoebe's record in the process. Exhausted physically and mentally, he heads home to see his sister.

    Holden spends a total of three days in the city, and the time is characterized largely by drunkenness and loneliness. At one point he ends up thinking about the Museum of Natural History, which he frequently visited as a child. He contrasts his life with the statues of Eskimos on display. For as long as he can remember, the statues have been unchanging. These concerns may have stemmed largely from the death of his brother, Allie. Eventually, he sneaks into his parents' apartment while they are away, to visit his younger sister, Phoebe, who is the only person with whom he seems to be able to communicate. Holden and Phoebe are close friends as well as siblings. Holden shares a fantasy he has been thinking about (based on a mishearing of Robert Burns' Comin' Through the Rye): he pictures himself as the sole guardian of numerous children running and playing in a huge rye field on the edge of a cliff. His job is to catch the children if, in their abandon, they come close to falling off the brink, to be a "catcher in the rye." Because of this misinterpretation, Holden believes that to be a "catcher in the rye" means to save children from losing their innocence.

    After leaving his parents' apartment, Holden drops by to see a former and much-admired English teacher, Mr. Antolini, in the middle of the night, and is offered advice on life and a place to sleep. Mr. Antolini tells Holden that it is the mark of the mature man to live humbly for a cause, rather than die nobly for it. This is at odds with Holden's ideas of becoming a "catcher in the rye," a heroic figure who symbolically saves children from "falling off a crazy cliff" and being exposed to the evils of adulthood. During the speech on life, Mr. Antolini has a number of cocktails served in highball glasses. Holden is upset when he wakes up in the night to find Mr. Antolini patting his head in a way that he regards as "flitty." There is much speculation on whether Mr. Antolini was making a homosexual advance on Holden or whether he was merely overreacting to a fatherly gesture made by Antolini. Holden leaves and spends his last afternoon wandering the city. He later wonders if his interpretation of Mr. Antolini's actions was actually correct, and seems to wonder how much it matters anyway.

    Holden makes the decision that he will head out west and live as a deaf-mute. When he mentions these plans to his little sister Monday morning, she decides she wants to go with him. Holden declines her offer and refuses to have her accompany him. This upsets Phoebe, so Holden does her a favor and decides not to leave after all. Holden tries to reverse her saddened mood by taking her to the Central Park Zoo. He realizes his mistake as she rides the carousel that lies within the zoo. He is filled with happiness and joy at the sight of Phoebe riding the carousel in the rain.

    At the conclusion of the novel, Holden decides not to mention much about the present day, finding it inconsequential. He alludes to "getting sick" and living in a mental hospital, and mentions that he'll be attending another school in September; he relates how he has been asked whether he will apply himself properly to study this time around and questions whether such a question has any meaning before the fact. Holden says that he doesn't want to tell us anymore, because surprisingly he found himself missing two of his former classmates, Stradlater and Ackley, and even Maurice, the elevator operator/pimp. He warns the reader that telling others about their own experiences will lead them to miss the people who shared them.

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    The lack of authenticity AND sincerity.

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    At first I thought the thread was "hatred of ponies" lol

    I figure a phony to be someone whose presentation strikes me as inauthentic compared to who I believe them to really be. I find that a lot of it reads in tone of voice, where they speak about who they are or what they like/hate without any real sense of conviction or sentiment; just hollow words ringing out of their mouths without any forethought put into it. There's also straight-up lying about yourself or what you've said/done in the past, which is much easier to track but harder for me to latch onto. I guess I see people in a highly holistic sense, where it's very difficult for me to express what exactly it is that strikes me as inauthentic or otherwise but I can readily tell that it's there.


    Relevant side story:
    Just today on the train there was this guy who was talking shit to other passengers, accusing perfect strangers of saying or doing things they never even remotely did. I did my best to completely ignore him and not make eye contact, but it was like he was talking to the wind and expecting some imaginary reaction or retaliation. One woman got so visibly scared from this encounter that once we got off the train she broke into a sprint up the escalator; I myself tried to steer as far clear from him as I could so I double-stepped up the stairs. But upon further reflection of the situation, it struck me that the guy's words had no conviction behind them. It was clear from his tone of voice that he never felt at all threatened by anybody around him; he didn't start yelling, his pitch didn't fluctuate that much, and maintained a fairly even keel over his verbal flow. He was just throwing words into a deaf sea of people, either for his own amusement or to puff up his own dangerously inflated ego in an attempt to seem "tough;" I choose to believe the latter.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Relevant side story:
    Just today on the train there was this guy who was talking shit to other passengers, accusing perfect strangers of saying or doing things they never even remotely did. I did my best to completely ignore him and not make eye contact, but it was like he was talking to the wind and expecting some imaginary reaction or retaliation. One woman got so visibly scared from this encounter that once we got off the train she broke into a sprint up the escalator; I myself tried to steer as far clear from him as I could so I double-stepped up the stairs. But upon further reflection of the situation, it struck me that the guy's words had no conviction behind them. It was clear from his tone of voice that he never felt at all threatened by anybody around him; he didn't start yelling, his pitch didn't fluctuate that much, and maintained a fairly even keel over his verbal flow. He was just throwing words into a deaf sea of people, either for his own amusement or to puff up his own dangerously inflated ego in an attempt to seem "tough;" I choose to believe the latter.
    This really happened?

    What kinds of things was he saying, like what were the events surrounding him beginning to talk? What kind of train was it, what city were you in? I'm incredibly curious.

    I'd probably try to talk to the guy.

    Really what you are describing sounds like being anti-social or sociopathic. Pathological lying is very common as an attribute to anti-social and sociopathic types. In some ways I almost feel sorry for the guy, if he really has never felt threatened at all by anyone around him then in a way he's kind of innocent in a way. What's more likely is that he was padding his ego with a false sense of superiority, which is particularly nasty when you discover the reality.
    Last edited by male; 07-10-2012 at 08:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    At first I thought the thread was "hatred of ponies" lol
    lol me too. I clicked for the ponies :3

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    Most criticism concerning my personality in this forum is about me being fake, a poser or a phony.
    When I confronted them, nobody has been able to tell how am I such.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Most criticism concerning my personality in this forum is about me being fake.
    He meant fake as in not being yourself, I think. That is, presenting some image you want to be in a specific situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    He meant fake as in not being yourself, I think. That is, presenting some image you want to be in a specific situation.
    Who did?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Who did?
    Frank Zappa. No, JWC3, but what do I know. I mean, all I know is that my book is almost ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Frank Zappa. No, JWC3, but what do I know.
    JWC likes me.

    ..As if it's not possible to make such remarks about people you like.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    JWC likes me.

    ..As if it's not possible to make such remarks about people you like.
    I don't know what "JWC3 likes me" has anything to do with what I have said, but okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I don't know what "JWC3 likes me" has anything to do with what I have said, but okay.
    If someone likes somebody, they rarely think that somebody is a phony.
    And even if they do, they rarely say it. And even if they do say it, they phrase it differently.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    I'm ending this here.

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    Aqua doesn't seem fake to me...he's maybe not the most "everything on the table" kind of person but I think "fake" is a strong word. He doesn't strike me as extremely shallow or superficial. I mean everyone is to some degree but I don't think Aqua really stands out in this way.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    This really happened?
    Sure did, it was fucking weird haha

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    What kinds of things was he saying, like what were the events surrounding him beginning to talk? What kind of train was it, what city were you in? I'm incredibly curious.
    I don't remember details, but something about other people trying to start fights with him or intruding upon his space. Lots of "crackers" thrown about too (he was of the black persuasion).

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    I'd probably try to talk to the guy.
    At the time that seemed like a terrible idea. Probably not wise to engage with someone so obviously looking for a fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaveLucidDreamz View Post
    Really what you are describing sounds like being anti-social or sociopathic. Pathological lying is very common as an attribute to anti-social and sociopathic types. In some ways I almost feel sorry for the guy, if he really has never felt threatened at all by anyone around him then in a way he's kind of innocent in a way. What's more likely is that he was padding his ego with a false sense of superiority, which is particularly nasty when you discover the reality.
    Yeah, he was very likely one of those too. What's weird though is that normally in the city, those who do the most arguing with imaginary people are the homeless guys in their 40s, their brains probably so drugged out or so far gone from reality that they can't tell the difference. This guy couldn't have been older than his late 20s, and already he's already picking fights with people who aren't there. If he's either legitimately sociopathic or on the verge of schizophrenia, it's a sad situation either way.
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    http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Hole

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  23. #23
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    I don't think aqua is fake, I think people tend to over-estimate him -- he has a good image, kind of like the whole "obama is the one" thing. I don't think that's aqua fault at all though.

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    Yeah I don't think most people on this forum have a problem with being fake. It's like the opposite. We are so real that we shoot our ownselves in the foot. It really sucks but ultimately, in the end- being honest is just self-defeating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Yeah I don't think most people on this forum have a problem with being fake. It's like the opposite. We are so real that we shoot our ownselves in the foot. It really sucks but ultimately, in the end- being honest is just self-defeating.
    Hmm I don't think its being real that's the problem, I think it's what people discover in reality that's the problem, but a problem which none the less exists regardless of if one deludes themselves from believing it doesn't exist. Even the vary worst in reality is contrasted against the very best, which is part of why some people have no problem venturing into the negative aspects in pursuit of something positive. This is what I'd characterize as actual faith, versus say faith which is a delusional. It is faith to seek out reality. It is a process, not a result. A state of mind, not a conclusion about the principles of the world around oneself.

    IT IS ZE UBERMENSCH!

    Nah I'm just playing around, but you know what I'm saying. I think honesty at a certain level is a good policy, but certain situations like if a nazi asked you were the jews were, it may be a good idea to lie where they are. None the less this is not a lack of self-honesty, it is a lack of honesty to another person, and what honesty exists between people is far more complex than literal interpretations of statements and facts -- what honesty exists between people goes down to the nature of the interaction between each individual... what changes is one's ability to perceive of that interaction. I think self-honesty is a good step to honing that perception, because it allows one to see how they change based off the reflection/refraction of you. You see what they input, you react, and it inevitable leads to an output of some sort, which they react to. If you understand yourself then understand then you have a better perception of why someone elses reaction shifts to you, and you can understand other's better through your own subjective lens. You may even be able to see the reflection of yourself in them, or the reflection of this reflection, and so forth. You may be able to understand the very vibration of the strings which bond people to others, or bond things together into a weave/membrane. Not in a literal way, but a perceptive way. This is what I think honesty is focused on achieving. It's not about literal factual statements, but the pursuit of truth.

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    Yeah that's what I meant. Honesty to an extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Relevant side story:
    Just today on the train there was this guy who was talking shit to other passengers, accusing perfect strangers of saying or doing things they never even remotely did. I did my best to completely ignore him and not make eye contact, but it was like he was talking to the wind and expecting some imaginary reaction or retaliation. One woman got so visibly scared from this encounter that once we got off the train she broke into a sprint up the escalator; I myself tried to steer as far clear from him as I could so I double-stepped up the stairs. But upon further reflection of the situation, it struck me that the guy's words had no conviction behind them. It was clear from his tone of voice that he never felt at all threatened by anybody around him; he didn't start yelling, his pitch didn't fluctuate that much, and maintained a fairly even keel over his verbal flow. He was just throwing words into a deaf sea of people, either for his own amusement or to puff up his own dangerously inflated ego in an attempt to seem "tough;" I choose to believe the latter.
    My interpretation of this would be different than most people's, while my (internal) reaction would probably be pretty common -- fear. My interpretation would be that the guy is unconsciously bringing his (possibly at least partially repressed) experiences/traumas from early childhood and/or infancy into a current situation that has no direct relation to those experiences. It wouldn't surprise me if in childhood he himself was accused of doing things he didn't do by his parent(s) or whoever. They probably instilled a lot of fear in him and chances are he was also physically abused. Of course when he grows up without a helping witness, etc. the fear can also devolve into anger, delusions, psychosis, antisocial behavior, alienation, etc.

    So if he's unconsciously mimicking his (former/past) abuser's behavior (and speech/voice/words) it would make sense that he wouldn't sound as if he feels threatened, since most adults don't feel threatened by (their) children, especially when their children are (very) young. While this man was definitely born innocent, chances are he's felt more (verbally and physically) threatened in his early childhood/infancy than the majority of the people on this forum have [and of course he probably experienced these threats at the hands of his parents]. The fact that he provoked so much fear in people tells us a lot about how he himself was made to feel in his early childhood and infancy.

    So if (first-world) countries like the United States of America, Italy, Canada, etc. want a world free from antisocial and sociopathic types (and a more just rational legal system, and a more current/updated political/economic system), we've got to step up to the plate and make laws against corporal punishment and improve child-rearing.... And things like parenting centres, courses, etc. could help (especially if they're free from the destructive forces of poisonous pedagogy, emotional blindness, ignorance, etc.). In addition mothers should be given more support to stay at home with their children, especially when they're very young.... and hopefully there can be more enlightened people who can also help improve child-rearing and offer guidance and counselling. If we want a more just and peaceful world it's really up to us to change things.... Otherwise we'll just remain woefully ignorant as to why there are so many ticking walking time bombs in our world.

  28. #28
    LauriesCrusador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    I often hear people say this but have no idea what they mean. If you hate phony people could use please explain your perspective to me? Examples would be nice.
    "The spirit of resistance to government
    is so valuable on certain occasions,
    that I wish it to be always kept alive.
    It will often be exercised when wrong
    but better so than not to be exercised at all.
    I like a little rebellion now and then.
    It is like a storm in the atmosphere."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    ^ pic made me laugh but I like him.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  30. #30
    Mermaid with Stellar views SyrupDeGem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    I often hear people say this but have no idea what they mean. If you hate phony people could use please explain your perspective to me? Examples would be nice.
    Hate is a very strong word for me, i may have at times used it in the past too flippantly. I would say i very much dislike interacting with phoney people. What i mean by this is people who tend to see the truth as fluid. I see some fluidity in it myself, what is true today may be disproved by science tomorrow classic instance... 'world is flat,oh wait, world is round'. But what i really do not like is like a microcosm of this with people being manipulated for personal gain within it.

    A good example of this is the sales person, saying whatever is necessary to make the sale but not really having any meaning associated with it. It's superficiality plus manipulation in order to con someone out of their cash or even just to use them as a pawn in some way. So also players, and PUA's are great examples too.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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