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Thread: Common PoLR Fallacies

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    Default Common PoLR Fallacies

    What are some things that people who have your polr in their ego, or value your polr incorrectly assume?

    Ti-values, when interacting with me, tend to do a lot of "Oh, you would like this thing that is perhaps vaguely if at all related to your current interests." Of course, being the fake SEE bastard that I am I often humor them, but just because I like transformers doesn't mean hot wheels are a good gift.

    Or similarly, just because I like video games, doesn't mean I think FIFA is fun.
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    Fe-egos generally assume too much regarding the mood of other people, imho. It might actually work most of the time and their inclination to talk about it/help is well received by the other person. But this approach often fails if they apply it to Fe-polrs, even if they don't notice that. That's not because they actively hide the status of their mood, but rather because it's less easy to see it from the outside. (However, this may drastically change if both people know each other.) And if the Fe-egos believe they have detected a bad mood, even there is none (Fe-polrs may frequently feel "nothing", but not in a bad way, more like an absence of describable positive or negative feeling) they start asking about that which pisses off the Fe-polr.

    I have actually a hard time to cover up how I feel. That's because it influences virtually everything, the posture, the tone of my voice, how much I talk, ect. But being silent is not necessarily a sign for sadness/frustration, it could be totally unrelated to that but if you tell the Fe-ego it's nothing they just won't believe you and keep probing.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
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    Also, this:

    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how Ti-egos in real life see me in terms of my devalued Ti. On here though, I find that people sometimes like to use me being Ti PoLR as an excuse for me making shitty arguments (even when they're not shitty and the other party simply doesn't understand the implications of what it is I'm saying) and to discontinue the argument on the grounds of "no logic derp."
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    What are some things that people who have your polr in their ego, or value your polr incorrectly assume?
    That I'm angry/pissed/"something's wrong" when I'm just chilling or doing whatever and not being particularly expressive. As if I should wear a smile and be super jovial all the time... or otherwise something must be bothering me.

    Another thing along similar lines is when people draw all sorts of conclusions and relations between things I have said/expressed when there aren't any. Wrongly connecting the dots, so to speak. Like "he said [so and so] so he must mean [this and that]", or "if he does [so and so] than he thinks [this and that]". And these kind of assumptions piss me off to no end, because it's so much easier to just talk to me and ASK me what I think and if I meant to imply something I wasn't explicit about, than just assume things that might or might not be correct (and act upon them). This might be more related to weak Ni/Ne than Fe PoLR, though, I'm not sure.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    But even if asked, it's a bit like they wouldn't listen or automatically think that you didn't want to tell them.

    It's usually like that:
     











    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    So Fi-egos don't ask if something is wrong? :/
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    But even if asked, it's a bit like they wouldn't listen or automatically think that you didn't want to tell them.

    It's usually like that:
     











    Lol, exactly. It's like why do you even fucking ask if you don't trust what I tell you, or you think I'm lying if I spontaneosly scratch my head or don't smile while I'm talkin to you.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    So Fi-egos don't ask if something is wrong? :/
    They do, but they listen and care. And then develop trust towards the Te egos who appreciate straightforwardness and verbal honesty, and confide themselves in people who won't evaluate them according to their outward emotional expression.
    Last edited by Park; 07-08-2012 at 09:00 PM.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    So Fi-egos don't ask if something is wrong? :/
    Of course, they do that too (if they think something is wrong). But they might not be influence by what they see in the same way as Fe-egos. That means they don't trust the outward appearance ("objective" expression) that much and rely more on the emotional logic (no reason to feel bad + person say they're fine = nothing wrong). I'm not entirely sure, but that could be the reason. On the other handside, that might lead to brooding over the other's mood. But perhaps the Fi-ego might not be equally prone to probing as the Fe-ego.

    As I said, it's much different if the people involved know each other, anyway.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Fe polr makes me a little paranoid, so although I don't always ask if something is wrong, I do often wonder if I have done something wrong or if I should be doing something to create more ease or engagement. Lots of odd little disconnections pile up in prolonged interactions, and these can range from amusing to null to exasperating depending on the level of friendship and trust (generally with INTps, as ISTps in my life have been extended family or co-workers but not friends per se, I don't think).

    Si egos ... SEIs give me the impression that I'm intruding on their world but also failing to pick up on some of their cues, cues they give to signal needs (friends) or boundaries (non-friends). They have the ability to relax and seem to take note when I can't follow them there--my tension level locks me out of their intimacy maybe. One LSE told me I was "at odds with the physical world"; I'd get criticized for dietary choices like sugar in my tea. ESEs tend to be ok, they don't usually mind my issues irl? ISTPs just give me a wide berth, are often polite to me, but it's awkward.

    Wow, I'm not focused today. What Si egos seem to assume is that I don't care about things like cooking or comfort. I do, but I seem to approach those in different ways than they do. Like I am not into the ritual of cooking and eating, but I still want my food to be really good and enjoy a meal with someone. Somehow they seem to do comfort in a way that I find threatening or suffocating. And they see me as not doing it at all because I have to get there via an indirect route.
    Last edited by golden; 07-08-2012 at 09:31 PM.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    people often think Se PoLR implies a lack of verbal assertiveness. i don't know if this is just on the internet, but yesterday a person in a chat room i frequent said something to the effect of that verbal forwardness was one of my most defining personality features. kinda flies in the face of the stereotype considering i'm quite unproblematically INxj.

    i would say Se PoLR does induce a certain form of lacking assertiveness but it has more to do with things for which there don't exist explicit articulable "rules" such that you have to get a "feel" for them to get the motions right. where verbal assertions are concerned this can mean that the INxj knows perfectly well *what* to say but can't modulate their expression well enough to have the assertion respected by others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Hmm… I think Si egos have been more likely to operate on the assumption that I don't pay enough attention to detail and regard me as a bit reckless because of it… though that's not exactly an incorrect assumption, lol. People do get wary of me over this and sometimes I can't blame them for feeling that way.

    I also relate a lot to what @Pa3s said.
    Interesting to hear this, Ashton, thanks for sharing...

    Along those lines, I think it's relevant to mention that I am generally an easygoing person but not enough attention to detail can make me really mad, annoyed, and frustrated with someone I am working with or trying to communicate with. It also makes me more neurotic because I feel that I can't trust that person's work, so I end up obsessively checking everything they do and possibly redoing some of the work, or asking them 1000 questions in different ways to make sure everything is done to my satisfaction.

    I didn't realize this is related to Si. I thought maybe it's related to my Te-HA...
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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I'm not sure how Ti-egos in real life see me in terms of my devalued Ti. On here though, I find that people sometimes like to use me being Ti PoLR as an excuse for me making shitty arguments (even when they're not shitty and the other party simply doesn't understand the implications of what it is I'm saying) and to discontinue the argument on the grounds of "no logic derp."
    I've noticed this too, in here and IRL.
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    On that same vein, I find that Si egos (more so with the Si subtypes) often place very heavy emphasis on details in the way important things are carried out, like they have a strong sense of extrinsic timeline in regard to how important processes (should) work. "Here's the plan: we will meet each other at 2:15 outside the revolving doors, then we will walk inside the building where I will give you the documents, you will then sign your name at the bottom using red ink from a pen my father gave to me when I was 13," etc. etc. My dad can get obsessive about these plans when he wants to be, as well as an Si-SEI teacher of mine. They don't think this way with all things of course, just with the plans that they most assuredly don't want fucked up. It's kinda nice for me to an extent, particularly when I don't understand what it is I have to do and need some sort of initial navigational guideline, but once I have the groundwork set it becomes overly superfluous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labster View Post
    people often think Se PoLR implies a lack of verbal assertiveness. i don't know if this is just on the internet, but yesterday a person in a chat room i frequent said something to the effect of that verbal forwardness was one of my most defining personality features. kinda flies in the face of the stereotype considering i'm quite unproblematically INxj.

    i would say Se PoLR does induce a certain form of lacking assertiveness but it has more to do with things for which there don't exist explicit articulable "rules" such that you have to get a "feel" for them to get the motions right. where verbal assertions are concerned this can mean that the INxj knows perfectly well *what* to say but can't modulate their expression well enough to have the assertion respected by others.
    This is an example of what happen while out shopping with my LSE cousin yesterday; we walked into Tiffany's and she told me that they polish their rings/jewelry if you you have them on you, starring down at her ring; I asked her when the last time she had hers done, she said a year ago. The sales staff walked up to us and she couldn't ask them to get it done, having some sort of a restraint against doing so, which I've noticed in her several times, at odd times; so, I asked the guy to polish her ring; this has to be Se PoLR related, somewhat because I can mobilize for action and ask for what I want.

    But, while shopping for clothing, she was being "creative" and picking out interesting combinations of style, while I was having an Se PoLR meltdown. I couldn't stand being around all those items, all those clothing. Forget it! I walked into the exercise store, where all the pants are black, and grabbed a pair of yoga pants and a tight top....very few color choices, just needed one in my size. She kept trying to be mildly encouraging, "you gotta give yourself a chance"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    Also, this:


    I never hug, really. I think a lot of Fe-valuing Sensing types are better/more comfortable with hugging and/or humanly/playfully touching people (in a friendly way) than some Beta NF's are, anyway. Perhaps its my misconception that this may be easier/more natural for Beta ST's (for example) as opposed to Beta NF's. Fe-ENFj with a Sensing subtype, for example, might find it a lot easier. INFp with an Intuitive subtype, for example, maybe not so much.

    There may have been a time when I sort of felt like hugging a girl, yet it was probably because I smoked marijuana.

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    Sometimes it feels like Te valuers take my words hyperliterally and can't tell when I'm just saying something for effect, or else they can tell that I'm making a joke, but get hung up on the factual accuracy of what I've said, as if I'm not aware of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    Also, this:

    That is also sub-cultural.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    When I eat, I die.
    Si-polr sux :-/
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by labster View Post
    i would say Se PoLR does induce a certain form of lacking assertiveness but it has more to do with things for which there don't exist explicit articulable "rules" such that you have to get a "feel" for them to get the motions right. where verbal assertions are concerned this can mean that the INxj knows perfectly well *what* to say but can't modulate their expression well enough to have the assertion respected by others.
    this seems like the most common + most annoying assumption made about me by Se-egos, i.e. if I'm not immediately able to articulate something in terms they will understand, it means i don't know what i'm talking about. this goes hand in hand with the accusation(s) that I'm a) confused b) trying to make shit up to save face c) trying to come off smarter than i really am, all of which is untrue in nearly every case. the reality is closer to that what i'm hinting at is a lot more amorphous, implicit, and broad in scale that it's difficult to convey it in terms readily analogous within the environment, so more often than not i end up relying on "gut feeling" and subjective impressions, shrugging with "trust me, i just know".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    This is an example of what happen while out shopping with my LSE cousin yesterday; we walked into Tiffany's and she told me that they polish their rings/jewelry if you you have them on you, starring down at her ring; I asked her when the last time she had hers done, she said a year ago. The sales staff walked up to us and she couldn't ask them to get it done, having some sort of a restraint against doing so, which I've noticed in her several times, at odd times; so, I asked the guy to polish her ring; this has to be Se PoLR related, somewhat because I can mobilize for action and ask for what I want.

    But, while shopping for clothing, she was being "creative" and picking out interesting combinations of style, while I was having an Se PoLR meltdown. I couldn't stand being around all those items, all those clothing. Forget it! I walked into the exercise store, where all the pants are black, and grabbed a pair of yoga pants and a tight top....very few color choices, just needed one in my size. She kept trying to be mildly encouraging, "you gotta give yourself a chance"
    sometimes while at a store, all the clothing decisions hit my Ne-Polr and I just start spinning and spinning spinning because I'm too afraid to make a decision, which color bra, red green yellow, blue pink...too many to choose from, I can't take it. so after I spin three times, I close my eyes and grab whatever my hands land on. If I came in for a bra but grabbed a sock, that's too bad. I have to leave with the sock because I can't think of any other possibilities of what to do.

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    hkkmr what if machines would be better at it than humans
    hkkmr machines being better at determining type
    hkkmr and intertype relations
    lungs why are you asking this
    hkkmr what if that were true
    hkkmr because if it were true what you say will be quite foolish
    hkkmr if it were false what I say would be quite foolish
    hkkmr but the future is kinda of fickle
    lungs but uh its not true so i guess you're foolish

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    sometimes while at a store, all the clothing decisions hit my Ne-Polr and I just start spinning and spinning spinning because I'm too afraid to make a decision, which color bra, red green yellow, blue pink...too many to choose from, I can't take it. so after I spin three times, I close my eyes and grab whatever my hands land on. If I came in for a bra but grabbed a sock, that's too bad. I have to leave with the sock because I can't think of any other possibilities of what to do.
    I get like this too. Maybe that's also why I go thru obsessions and have to buy every colored underwear/bra/sock I see just so I don't have to bother with matching them. This is why I HATE shopping. Then you have to find the right shoes, the right bag, the right accessories. This is why the majority of my wardrobe is black. EW shopping.

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    i've ruined it so that everyone refuses to go shopping with me because i will take all day and then maybe buy one thing lol. but a lot of that is because i grew up without much money and i feel guilty for spending more than i "should" on anything even if i can afford it so on top of not knowing what to choose it becomes realllllly arduous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    Sometimes it feels like Te valuers take my words hyperliterally and can't tell when I'm just saying something for effect, or else they can tell that I'm making a joke, but get hung up on the factual accuracy of what I've said, as if I'm not aware of it.
    yes, this. also i have been accused of not seeing reality, etc. by Te-valuers. whatever the situation may be, they see the Te: the visible & verifiable action, the objective occurrence, the "actuality" of the situation, and that is their reality, their "truth". i don't necessarily care about these things so much as i care about my own understanding & interpretation, my opinion, my own "truth" (their objective reality be damned!). as a result i may dismiss what they see in favor of what i see as a more lucid, fundamentally relevant explanation (Ti). i think this may result in some Te-valuers seeing me (or at least my perspective) as simple-minded, shallow, or even just plain stupid, clinging to an overly simplistic viewpoint while ignoring what they see as the more complex reality.
    Last edited by glam; 07-10-2012 at 06:40 AM.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    i don't think any type or function has a claim to "seeing reality" or "being objective" by default. the most basic rule of rational discourse, namely that views by themselves are not constitutive of truth no matter by whom they are held, does not simply get rewritten by socionics.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labster View Post
    i don't think any type or function has a claim to "seeing reality" or "being objective" by default. the most basic rule of rational discourse, namely that views by themselves are not constitutive of truth no matter by whom they are held, does not simply get rewritten by socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    sometimes while at a store, all the clothing decisions hit my Ne-Polr and I just start spinning and spinning spinning because I'm too afraid to make a decision, which color bra, red green yellow, blue pink...too many to choose from, I can't take it. so after I spin three times, I close my eyes and grab whatever my hands land on. If I came in for a bra but grabbed a sock, that's too bad. I have to leave with the sock because I can't think of any other possibilities of what to do.
    So you shop impulsively? That's pretty Se to me.

    I don't leave stores with items just because I can't see the possibilities. I'm better at fighting trough things, my indecision. I go to the store and get overwhelmed by options, and eventually pick what I need. I usually will ask someone for a decision, but will never buy something on impulse. I will buy what I need. If I went in for socks, and there are too many choices, I will buy socks and nothing else, or I will not buy socks. I won't say "screw it we'll get this" I will filter the feedback of sensory things out of my system and spend more time than I need at the store, but I will go and get what I need.

    I browse for Ne, ideas, and will not buy things. I usually go in with the idea and plan of what I want and look for as many of that thing in different styles as possible. So I like possibilities.

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    My contribution to this thread about common PoLR fallacies:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    So you shop impulsively? That's pretty Se to me.
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    Get them, Maritsa.

  33. #33
    FoxOnStilts's Avatar
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    Fi egos just assume that I know how they feel and expect me to agree with it or at least act accordingly when really I have no idea what their feelings are on anything.

  34. #34
    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    LOL, I was completely joking. I thought that was apparent. Who spins in a department store? I like shopping...

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    LOL, I was completely joking. I thought that was apparent. Who spins in a department store? I like shopping...
    You like shopping, you're Se.

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    Te-valuers seem to think I just "don't give a shit," lol. And I don't. Occasionally I take a moment to mourn a Te-tragedy: too much money spent on something, overdraft again, never finished that paperwork, forgot to turn in large assignment, etc. Even XEEs cringe. But I always bounce back within the hour.

    Some excellent contributions by SLIs in this thread. I love SLIs so much. ;O;<3 The SLI I work with is one of the most genuine people I've ever met, and even being Fe-PoLR, so very sweet. Our ILI friend nicknamed him "the last unicorn" lmao, had something to do with how rare his sort of character is. Whenever he speaks "from the heart," it stuns me in the best possible way.

    I did have to learn eventually that trying to "liven up" SLIs with Fe-prodding is generally counter-productive though.
    Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9.

  37. #37
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    sometimes while at a store, all the clothing decisions hit my Ne-Polr and I just start spinning and spinning spinning because I'm too afraid to make a decision, which color bra, red green yellow, blue pink...too many to choose from, I can't take it. so after I spin three times, I close my eyes and grab whatever my hands land on. If I came in for a bra but grabbed a sock, that's too bad. I have to leave with the sock because I can't think of any other possibilities of what to do.
    There's a ESI-female description which mentions this point.

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ale_and_female

    "Prepare for the fact..." etc.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Most common of all PoLR fallacies is that you can't use your PoLR; SEI can very well organize and EII, don't organize. Um...let's see...more? Later!

    I recall my mom's major words to me "honey, you never do anything in any organized fashion." Pffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

    But then she wants to live with me so she can keep telling me what to do. What to do.....

    No. I love her but she knows the only person telling me what to do is the person who's going to do it.

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    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    There's a ESI-female description which mentions this point.

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ale_and_female

    "Prepare for the fact..." etc.
    i like shopping .. lol..

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    Ti-values, when interacting with me, tend to do a lot of "Oh, you would like this thing that is perhaps vaguely if at all related to your current interests." Of course, being the fake SEE bastard that I am I often humor them, but just because I like transformers doesn't mean hot wheels are a good gift. Or similarly, just because I like video games, doesn't mean I think FIFA is fun.
    an IEE friend does this all the time. it's her Ne that makes these wondrous associative jumps leading her to voice these far-reaching guesses about someone's preferences and attitudes. once in a while she gets a piercing insight into other people, other times it's like she's playing pin the tail with a blindfold stumbling in the dark. yet she doesn't have anything to do with Ti. it's her polr and an element that is annoying for her to be around.

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