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Thread: Jimmy Wales is an Objectivist

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Jimmy Wales is an Objectivist.

    I wasn't aware of his political views until a few minutes ago, but yeah, he is a self-described libertarian and objectivist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_w...economic_views

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    Jimmy Boyle was an objectivist as well.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    meh@Objectivism

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I liked The Fountainhead. Atlas Shrugged was boring, couldn't get through it; it seemed to have lost the independent artistic edge of her earlier conviction, it feels purely political to me.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I would say "meh" at Objectivism, except that it is vastly superior to most modern philosophies in its sheer conviction. Objectivists try to distance themselves from libertarians because they are "badass" and whatnot, but the labels are mostly interchangeable. Most libertarians have objectivist influence and most objectivists will imply libertarian methods and lifestyles, now that the Rand cult is dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I would say "meh" at Objectivism, except that it is vastly superior to most modern philosophies in its sheer conviction. Objectivists try to distance themselves from libertarians because they are "badass" and whatnot, but the labels are mostly interchangeable. Most libertarians have objectivist influence and most objectivists will imply libertarian methods and lifestyles, now that the Rand cult is dead.
    I don't mind Objectivism, and admire it's tenets. It was actually an Objectivist who introduced me to Austrian economics, which sent me down the path I'm on now. I don't believe their political views go far enough, though.

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    Yeah. Rand refused to follow her own train of logic to statelessness.

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    Can someone simply explain what is the link between philosophical objectivism and laissez faire capitalism?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    @Aquagraph Laissez-faire capitalism offers the optimal conditions for individuals' sole determination of their own value, which is perhaps the most basic tenant of Randian objectivism.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Can someone simply explain what is the link between philosophical objectivism and laissez faire capitalism?
    There's none, actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    @Aquagraph Laissez-faire capitalism offers the optimal conditions for individuals' sole determination of their own value, which is perhaps the most basic tenant of Randian objectivism.
    What's Randian objectivism?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    What's Randian objectivism?

    Here
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    I liked The Fountainhead. Atlas Shrugged was boring, couldn't get through it; it seemed to have lost the independent artistic edge of her earlier conviction, it feels purely political to me.
    I'm reading it at the moment, and the entire book is like she has an agenda of what she believes, so she tries to position the characters so that the reader will like those who are in favour of Objectivism. Unfortunately, I can't be convinced that being selfish is justified because the guy who can design extraordinary metal thinks those who are against being selfish are "repulsive". I guess I might agree with Ayn Rand and that her theory seems justified within the book, but the problem is that the characters seem completely unbelievable in today's society.
    Warm Regards,



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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Lol yeah, I checked that Wikiarticle and I can see how laissez faire is linked to individual rights that are part of pursuing one's happiness but can someone simply explain what does
    mind-independent reality have to do with laissez faire?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownsandEntropy View Post
    I'm reading it at the moment, and the entire book is like she has an agenda of what she believes, so she tries to position the characters so that the reader will like those who are in favour of Objectivism. Unfortunately, I can't be convinced that being selfish is justified because the guy who can design extraordinary metal thinks those who are against being selfish are "repulsive". I guess I might agree with Ayn Rand and that her theory seems justified within the book, but the problem is that the characters seem completely unbelievable in today's society.
    Well Rand was a refugee from communist Russia, coming to America in the 1920s, so she saw a much different America than we do, with very different eyes. To Rand, America was the antithesis of communist Russia, where people were treated like parts of a machine, so it's only natural that she would project and exacerbate the most anti-communist traits of America, presumably in hope of bolstering and preserving the creative, entrepreneurial spirit that is the backbone of our existence.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Lol yeah, I checked that Wikiarticle and I can see how laissez faire is linked to individual rights that are part of pursuing one's happiness but can someone simply explain what does
    mind-independent reality have to do with laissez faire?
    Rand named her philosophy Objectivism because she believed her manner of seeing the world was based around the instinct that drives the most basic, undeniable, "objective" conditions of man's existence: the instinct for self-preservation. She took the fact that "we exist because we take responsibility for our own survival" to its philosophical asymptote.
    Last edited by Gilly; 07-05-2012 at 02:22 PM.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Can someone simply explain what is the link between philosophical objectivism and laissez faire capitalism?
    Ayn Rand was a rational egoist, and considered laissez-faire capitalism the only socio-economic "system" compatible with Objectivist ethics.

    This flash animation, which I've posted here before, is an excellent primer on the fundamentals of Objectivism.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Lol yeah, I checked that Wikiarticle and I can see how laissez faire is linked to individual rights that are part of pursuing one's happiness but can someone simply explain what does mind-independent reality have to do with laissez faire?
    they aren't related, unless you agree with Rand's premise that a rational person who examines the objective reality will conclude that anything that limits the ability of people to pursue their own self-interest is immoral, and thus the most moral economic system is one that does not put any limits, regulations, or control over people's behavior, in order not to obstruct the pursuit of their self-interest: the ideal of laissez-faire. without acceptance of these ideas, the belief in laissez-faire as the only system compatible with objective reality does not follow.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Lol yeah, I checked that Wikiarticle and I can see how laissez faire is linked to individual rights that are part of pursuing one's happiness but can someone simply explain what does
    mind-independent reality have to do with laissez faire?
    Objectivism is about the Capital O.

    NIN did a commentary of it with Capital G.



    Now we just need a Dick to make it a real dog and pony show.

    Unfortunately the only Dick I can think of is Nixon and he was a communist quaker who wanted universal health care.

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    rand was too emphatic; the very phrase 'free market' is a redundancy, since any market -- no matter how regulated -- is fundamentally governed by the ebb and flow of human impulse and action. a system already in place forces one to posit any alternative in a systemic form; but the premise of laissez-faire/capitalist thought is the emergent nature of an economy. this notion is incompatible with modern ideas because control/structure is seen as something external, when the very act of self-governance begins within. this also relates to the supposed exclusion between self-interest and societal well-being, such that instead of hank rearden building his empire and creating more labor, we have bill gates and oprah monopolizing charities with wealth that could be more efficiently allocated (seem as interested in others as you are selfish -- the vow of altruism). so yeah, her ideas can only be taken so far, personally I felt they were a fresh reminder and a necessary warning, which has proven pretty accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    they aren't related, unless you agree with Rand's premise that a rational person who examines the objective reality will conclude that anything that limits the ability of people to pursue their own self-interest is immoral, and thus the most moral economic system is one that does not put any limits, regulations, or control over people's behavior, in order not to obstruct the pursuit of their self-interest: the ideal of laissez-faire. without acceptance of these ideas, the belief in laissez-faire as the only system compatible with objective reality does not follow.
    This.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    they aren't related, unless you agree with Rand's premise that a rational person who examines the objective reality will conclude that anything that limits the ability of people to pursue their own self-interest is immoral, and thus the most moral economic system is one that does not put any limits, regulations, or control over people's behavior, in order not to obstruct the pursuit of their self-interest: the ideal of laissez-faire. without acceptance of these ideas, the belief in laissez-faire as the only system compatible with objective reality does not follow.
    edit: wait for it
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    She took the fact that "we exist because we take responsibility for our own survival" to its philosophical asymptote.
    Great phrase.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Great phrase.
    Lol thank you
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    edit: wait for it
    now i really want to know!

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