(NSFW) cruelty - marina abrimov rhythm o

[ashlesha]

i wasn't sure if i should put this in psychology or art.





Rhythm 0, 1974. To test the limits of the relationship between performer and audience, Marina Abramović developed one of her most challenging performances. Abramović had placed upon a table 72 objects that people were allowed to use (a sign informed them) in any way that they chose. Some of these were objects that could give pleasure, while others could be wielded to inflict pain, or to harm her. Among them were a rose, a feather, honey, a whip, scissors, a scalpel, a gun and a single bullet. For six hours the artist allowed the audience members to manipulate her body and actions. Initially, members of the audience reacted with caution and modesty, but as time passed (and the artist remained impassive) people began to act more aggressively. As Abramović described it later: “What I learned was that if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you. I felt really violated: they cut up my clothes, stuck rose thorns in my stomach, one person aimed the gun at my head, and another took it away. It created an aggressive atmosphere. After exactly 6 hours, as planned, I stood up and started walking toward the audience. Everyone ran away, to escape an actual confrontation.”

http://www.moma.org/explore/multimedia/audios/190/1972

[Aquagraph]

GENIUS.

*the enchanted, clumsy combination of bow, applaud and drool*

[Radio]

lol wtf

this is actually really interesting as a social experiment, idk what it's supposed to be on an artistic level.

[squirreltual]

this woman. Acconci and Chris Burden too... *sigh* the seventies... If you haven't checked out Bas Jan Ader then do. His life and artwork really collided...

[Creepy-male]

kind of fucked up, but I believe it.

[mu4]

You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.

[Aquagraph]

You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.

Did you imply that it reminded you about the effectiveness of a warning? If not, how do you expect others to underestimate the power of warning or was "you'd be surprised" just a figure of speech? How do you evaluate the effect of the power of warning?

To all:
Would you honestly do something to her? If yes, of what nature could it be?

[strrrng]

she and her husband also did an exhibition/experiment where they repeatedly walked bare-chested into a wall. and I think he was the one who wired himself to the loud speakers in some theater and masturbated to showcase the potency of anonymous publicity. they also 'ended' their relationship by walking around the great wall of china, meeting halfway and moving on. interesting stuff.


edit: that doesn't even make sense. her experiment was the antithesis of a warning... more like a primordial open-arms policy. which is precisely why people went from anxious modesty to misguided aggression... the confusion over the social boundaries in play remained the same, she was their abyss. your quasi-diplomatic officiousness is grating, hkkmr.

[mu4]

edit: that doesn't even make sense. her experiment was the antithesis of a warning... more like a primordial open-arms policy. which is precisely why people went from anxious modesty to misguided aggression... the confusion over the social boundaries in play remained the same, she was their abyss. your quasi-diplomatic officiousness is grating, hkkmr.

You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.

[mu4]

To all:
Would you honestly do something to her? If yes, of what nature could it be?

I wouldn't be at her art show. Does that count?

[Aquagraph]

this is actually really interesting as a social experiment, idk what it's supposed to be on an artistic level.

Usually when determining whether something has an artistic value I tend to favor the following parameters:
Did it invoke thoughts?
Did it invoke feelings?
Did it move you in a spiritual manner?
Did it redefine what can be art?
Did it make people question something or redefine their beliefs?
Did it invoke discussion?

edit: that doesn't even make sense. her experiment was the antithesis of a warning... more like a primordial open-arms policy. which is precisely why people went from anxious modesty to misguided aggression... the confusion over the social boundaries in play remained the same, she was their abyss. your quasi-diplomatic officiousness is grating, hkkmr.

This was my reaction too.

Hkkmr, why wouldn't you be and what if you just happened to be?

[strrrng]

You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.

dude, go suck off a politician if you're that proudly repressed. pandering for a trophy doesn't make you civil, it means you're a bitch. the prevalence of people like you is the reason why people like her carry on masochistic art exhibitions. now warn me.

[Aquagraph]

Hkkmr, make him a warning example using your moderator powers.

[mu4]

“What I learned was that if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you."

strrrng isn't worth the time to warn, I mean if he really wants it, he can do something really bad.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure strrrng's pretty bitchy...

[Hays]

If I was there I would have liked to have removed the rose thorns which someone stuck into her stomach and then covered her bare chest.
I was pleased to read that somebody removed the gun aimed at her head.

I think to most it would have seemed that she was welcoming them to experiment with her body artistically which of course means that once the art expression got in motion, people were able to play out silliness, fantasy and aggression almost forgetting that the model had thoughts, emotions and could feel the pain inflicted upon her body.

[Aquagraph]

Anyways, I'm pretty sure strrrng's pretty bitchy...

Am I bitchy too or why don't you answer any of my questions?

[mu4]

Am I bitchy too or why don't you answer any of my questions?

I answered one.... This is the second.

The other answers I'll get back to you on.

[squirreltual]

Would you honestly do something to her? If yes, of what nature could it be?

Yes. Hmm... I think my protective instinct would come out if I judged that she was scared and would probably do something nice. If I couldn't see her face or if there was no other audience I think I'd be more aggressive/a complete arsehole.

[Aquagraph]

Thank you, Hkkmr.

I was pleased to read that somebody removed the gun aimed at her head.

I would probably turn around with the gun on one hand and the bullet in one hand, do something with the bullet, turn, aim and then pull the trigger.
I leave it up to you (and the artist at that point) to figure out whether I'd put the bullet in the chamber or in my pocket.

[strrrng]

Yes. Hmm... I think my protective instinct would come out if I judged that she was scared and would probably do something nice. If I couldn't see her face or if there was no other audience I think I'd be more aggressive/a complete arsehole.

if you had alice locked in a dungeon...

yeah I think that was the true purpose of the experiment. just how influenced are you by what other people are watching, do you know what you see? when the line between human and fetishized object is blurred, one can barely choose between instincts and morals. actually what she did was not too dissimilar to my response to hkkmr, which is why he didn't warn me. it's not so much about the generic kind of defiance someone could accuse her of, because she accepted the consequences; more that people would expect she desire one thing or the other, and her self-denying ambiguity prevented them from understanding what they desired, so it became a matter of 'just how far can I go?' which is pretty much why this kind of thing could only be public. jesus was too arrogant.

[Aquagraph]

This is cool.
@Aquagraph - your question is moot.

And this remark is a killjoy. But, like most of the times, you are right.

[Aquagraph]

if you had alice locked in a dungeon...

This is not relevant but I want to know if this is a reference to something?

[Codie]

haha she's brave...

[squirreltual]

if you had alice locked in a dungeon...

yeah I think that was the true purpose of the experiment. just how influenced are you by what other people are watching, do you know what you see? when the line between human and fetishized object is blurred, one can barely choose between instincts and morals. actually what she did was not too dissimilar to my response to hkkmr, which is why he didn't warn me. it's not so much about the generic kind of defiance someone could accuse her of, because she accepted the consequences; more that people would expect she desire one thing or the other, and her self-denying ambiguity prevented them from understanding what they desired, so it became a matter of 'just how far can I go?' which is pretty much why this kind of thing could only be public. jesus was too arrogant.

Hi. I'm not Shayley If we do nothing, I think she will be disappointed. That will truly hurt her.

[Hays]

Thanks for clarifying that Squirreltual .

If I did participate I think it would likely be something to do with a feather for I would not want to hurt her.

[strrrng]

This is not relevant but I want to know if this is a reference to something?

well how she mentioned 'if no one was looking/if she were alone'... I think it's a sadistic showcase of the observed-observer dilemma. having alice in a dungeon embodies complete freedom and repression, like an honest utopia. reminds me of when the SLE those christian girls dosed faceplanted in a giggling frenzy. the vulnerability's absurdity overrode the 'take the apple' appeal.

Hi. I'm not Shayley If we do nothing, I think she will be disappointed. That will truly hurt her.

lol fixed

[Aquagraph]

well how she mentioned 'if no one was looking/if she were alone'... I think it's a sadistic showcase of the observed-observer dilemma. having alice in a dungeon embodies complete freedom and repression, like an honest utopia. reminds me of when the SLE those christian girls dosed faceplanted in a giggling frenzy. the vulnerability's absurdity overrode the 'take the apple' appeal.

I was just wondering why Alice and whether the band Alice in Chains has anything to do with this idiom.

[strrrng]

nah the movie lol... the paradox of being trapped in wonderland

[ArchonAlarion]

I wouldn't do anything to her, maybe tickle her or something. I find the concept disgusting even though she volunteered... I have no wonder or inclination to harm people just to see the consequences.

[Aquagraph]

I have no wonder or inclination to harm people just to see the consequences.

Do you remember ever trying such?

[ArchonAlarion]

Nothing definite, and I can't remember anything physical. At least, purely out of curiosity to see the consequences. It just doesn't interest me.

[squirreltual]

I wouldn't do anything to her, maybe tickle her or something. I find the concept disgusting even though she volunteered... I have no wonder or inclination to harm people just to see the consequences.

She didn't just volunteer - she created the concept and organized her role as "object", knowing at any time she could stop being passive. But she isn't really passive. She is provoking a nest of ants with a magnifying glass under full glare of the sun. It's a dare.

[Aquagraph]

Nothing definite, and I can't remember anything physical. At least, purely out of curiosity to see the consequences. It just doesn't interest me.

You walk your walk but as an enthusiastic pusher of people's buttons, I feel like saying that you are missing a lot.

[PistolShrimp]

I would probably have taken pictures of the performance unfolding instead of interacting with her directly. Or maybe I would have duct-taped her ankles together if I knew she was going to walk at the end just for the lulz.

[ArchonAlarion]

You walk your walk but as an enthusiastic pusher of people's buttons, I feel like saying that you are missing a lot.

I get the point of the piece, but I would not interact. That is my contribution.

[Gilly]

You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.

Lick my big white balls you chink bitch

[strangeling]

I'm surprised people didn't try to turn this into a bdsm gangbang or an orgy, where she becomes the willing participant. Maybe it would be too weird with cameras and a bunch of people just watching. This would be cool if she changed the atmosphere and saw how people acted differently to the experiment. I have a feeling the way she put herself on display was to completely dehumanize her. Or was that the point to see how people are willing to take advantage of her dehumanized position when they could choose to humanize her?

[jessica129]

This sort of art just kind of bothers me. It's trying way too hard to make a statement, imo. It's a good idea, but just..blah. And I don't understand why people could be so cruel. She's standing there doing nothing, why would any sane person harm her? It's disturbing.

[Radio]

Usually when determining whether something has an artistic value I tend to favor the following parameters:
Did it invoke thoughts?
Did it invoke feelings?
Did it move you in a spiritual manner?
Did it redefine what can be art?
Did it make people question something or redefine their beliefs?
Did it invoke discussion?

Interesting. I see what you mean.

I don't know what I'd do in that position, I reckon it's highly contextual and depends on how anonymous I was among the crowd. If I was there with a friend my response would be drastically different from if I was with complete strangers. I can imagine within the moment very slowly transgressing limits, to "test" per se how far I could go, try to prick her, scratch her, inflict pain to see if she would flinch. I wouldn't do something too radical, though, but who knows.

[Absurd]

Would you honestly do something to her? If yes, of what nature could it be?

Never did anything to me but I bet you would axe her to death like that dead cat artist.