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Thread: (NSFW) cruelty - marina abrimov rhythm o

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    Default (NSFW) cruelty - marina abrimov rhythm o

    i wasn't sure if i should put this in psychology or art.





    Rhythm 0, 1974. To test the limits of the relationship between performer and audience, Marina Abramović developed one of her most challenging performances. Abramović had placed upon a table 72 objects that people were allowed to use (a sign informed them) in any way that they chose. Some of these were objects that could give pleasure, while others could be wielded to inflict pain, or to harm her. Among them were a rose, a feather, honey, a whip, scissors, a scalpel, a gun and a single bullet. For six hours the artist allowed the audience members to manipulate her body and actions. Initially, members of the audience reacted with caution and modesty, but as time passed (and the artist remained impassive) people began to act more aggressively. As Abramović described it later: “What I learned was that if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you. I felt really violated: they cut up my clothes, stuck rose thorns in my stomach, one person aimed the gun at my head, and another took it away. It created an aggressive atmosphere. After exactly 6 hours, as planned, I stood up and started walking toward the audience. Everyone ran away, to escape an actual confrontation.”

    http://www.moma.org/explore/multimedia/audios/190/1972

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    GENIUS.

    *the enchanted, clumsy combination of bow, applaud and drool*
    Last edited by Aquagraph; 07-03-2012 at 02:53 AM. Reason: better phrasing
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    ■■■■■■ Radio's Avatar
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    lol wtf

    this is actually really interesting as a social experiment, idk what it's supposed to be on an artistic level.

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    this woman. Acconci and Chris Burden too... *sigh* the seventies... If you haven't checked out Bas Jan Ader then do. His life and artwork really collided...

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    kind of fucked up, but I believe it.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.
    Did you imply that it reminded you about the effectiveness of a warning? If not, how do you expect others to underestimate the power of warning or was "you'd be surprised" just a figure of speech? How do you evaluate the effect of the power of warning?

    To all:
    Would you honestly do something to her? If yes, of what nature could it be?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    she and her husband also did an exhibition/experiment where they repeatedly walked bare-chested into a wall. and I think he was the one who wired himself to the loud speakers in some theater and masturbated to showcase the potency of anonymous publicity. they also 'ended' their relationship by walking around the great wall of china, meeting halfway and moving on. interesting stuff.


    edit: that doesn't even make sense. her experiment was the antithesis of a warning... more like a primordial open-arms policy. which is precisely why people went from anxious modesty to misguided aggression... the confusion over the social boundaries in play remained the same, she was their abyss. your quasi-diplomatic officiousness is grating, hkkmr.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    edit: that doesn't even make sense. her experiment was the antithesis of a warning... more like a primordial open-arms policy. which is precisely why people went from anxious modesty to misguided aggression... the confusion over the social boundaries in play remained the same, she was their abyss. your quasi-diplomatic officiousness is grating, hkkmr.
    You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    To all:
    Would you honestly do something to her? If yes, of what nature could it be?
    I wouldn't be at her art show. Does that count?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    this is actually really interesting as a social experiment, idk what it's supposed to be on an artistic level.
    Usually when determining whether something has an artistic value I tend to favor the following parameters:
    Did it invoke thoughts?
    Did it invoke feelings?
    Did it move you in a spiritual manner?
    Did it redefine what can be art?
    Did it make people question something or redefine their beliefs?
    Did it invoke discussion?

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    edit: that doesn't even make sense. her experiment was the antithesis of a warning... more like a primordial open-arms policy. which is precisely why people went from anxious modesty to misguided aggression... the confusion over the social boundaries in play remained the same, she was their abyss. your quasi-diplomatic officiousness is grating, hkkmr.
    This was my reaction too.

    Hkkmr, why wouldn't you be and what if you just happened to be?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.
    dude, go suck off a politician if you're that proudly repressed. pandering for a trophy doesn't make you civil, it means you're a bitch. the prevalence of people like you is the reason why people like her carry on masochistic art exhibitions. now warn me.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Hkkmr, make him a warning example using your moderator powers.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    “What I learned was that if you leave it up to the audience, they can kill you."

    strrrng isn't worth the time to warn, I mean if he really wants it, he can do something really bad.

    Anyways, I'm pretty sure strrrng's pretty bitchy...

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    If I was there I would have liked to have removed the rose thorns which someone stuck into her stomach and then covered her bare chest.
    I was pleased to read that somebody removed the gun aimed at her head.

    I think to most it would have seemed that she was welcoming them to experiment with her body artistically which of course means that once the art expression got in motion, people were able to play out silliness, fantasy and aggression almost forgetting that the model had thoughts, emotions and could feel the pain inflicted upon her body.
    Last edited by Shay; 07-03-2012 at 02:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Anyways, I'm pretty sure strrrng's pretty bitchy...
    Am I bitchy too or why don't you answer any of my questions?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Am I bitchy too or why don't you answer any of my questions?
    I answered one.... This is the second.

    The other answers I'll get back to you on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Would you honestly do something to her? If yes, of what nature could it be?
    Yes. Hmm... I think my protective instinct would come out if I judged that she was scared and would probably do something nice. If I couldn't see her face or if there was no other audience I think I'd be more aggressive/a complete arsehole.

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    Thank you, Hkkmr.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shayley View Post
    I was pleased to read that somebody removed the gun aimed at her head.
    I would probably turn around with the gun on one hand and the bullet in one hand, do something with the bullet, turn, aim and then pull the trigger.
    I leave it up to you (and the artist at that point) to figure out whether I'd put the bullet in the chamber or in my pocket.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Anyways, I'm pretty sure strrrng's pretty bitchy...
    All IEI are bitchy. It's not something we can help.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    not a bumblebee octo's Avatar
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    This is cool.
    @Aquagraph - your question is moot. I don't think people are truly capable of saying what they will/won't do when put in a certain situation, unless they've been in that situation themselves and are reporting what they actually did.

    Interesting related Wikipedia arghticles for your viewing pleasure:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundame...ribution_error
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

    So I guess my answer to your question would be: I hope I'd do something artistic but benign. Place a rose in her mouth perhaps. But I'd be unrealistic if I said I definitely wouldn't harm her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squirreltual
    Yes. Hmm... I think my protective instinct would come out if I judged that she was scared and would probably do something nice. If I couldn't see her face or if there was no other audience I think I'd be more aggressive/a complete arsehole.
    if you had alice locked in a dungeon...

    yeah I think that was the true purpose of the experiment. just how influenced are you by what other people are watching, do you know what you see? when the line between human and fetishized object is blurred, one can barely choose between instincts and morals. actually what she did was not too dissimilar to my response to hkkmr, which is why he didn't warn me. it's not so much about the generic kind of defiance someone could accuse her of, because she accepted the consequences; more that people would expect she desire one thing or the other, and her self-denying ambiguity prevented them from understanding what they desired, so it became a matter of 'just how far can I go?' which is pretty much why this kind of thing could only be public. jesus was too arrogant.
    Last edited by strrrng; 07-03-2012 at 03:25 AM.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    This is cool.
    @Aquagraph - your question is moot.
    And this remark is a killjoy. But, like most of the times, you are right.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    if you had alice locked in a dungeon...
    This is not relevant but I want to know if this is a reference to something?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    not a bumblebee octo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    And this remark is a killjoy. But, like most of the times, you are right.
    I'm always right.

    Also wanted to add that her impassivity could've contributed to the escalation - kind of like how little kids kick "statue" street performers in the shins if they don't respond to prodding. Poking at the unnatural to try to elicit a response that corresponds to expectations?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    haha she's brave...

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    Fascinating concept.

    I probably wouldn't harm her. Even if I were alone, I wouldn't, as I'm easily queasy & she simply wouldn't deserve it. I would probably do something silly and witless to her. Pour honey all over her scalp, face & breasts and tickle her face with a feather.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    if you had alice locked in a dungeon...

    yeah I think that was the true purpose of the experiment. just how influenced are you by what other people are watching, do you know what you see? when the line between human and fetishized object is blurred, one can barely choose between instincts and morals. actually what she did was not too dissimilar to my response to hkkmr, which is why he didn't warn me. it's not so much about the generic kind of defiance someone could accuse her of, because she accepted the consequences; more that people would expect she desire one thing or the other, and her self-denying ambiguity prevented them from understanding what they desired, so it became a matter of 'just how far can I go?' which is pretty much why this kind of thing could only be public. jesus was too arrogant.
    Hi. I'm not Shayley If we do nothing, I think she will be disappointed. That will truly hurt her.

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    Thanks for clarifying that Squirreltual .

    If I did participate I think it would likely be something to do with a feather for I would not want to hurt her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph
    This is not relevant but I want to know if this is a reference to something?
    well how she mentioned 'if no one was looking/if she were alone'... I think it's a sadistic showcase of the observed-observer dilemma. having alice in a dungeon embodies complete freedom and repression, like an honest utopia. reminds me of when the SLE those christian girls dosed faceplanted in a giggling frenzy. the vulnerability's absurdity overrode the 'take the apple' appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirreltual
    Hi. I'm not Shayley If we do nothing, I think she will be disappointed. That will truly hurt her.
    lol fixed
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    well how she mentioned 'if no one was looking/if she were alone'... I think it's a sadistic showcase of the observed-observer dilemma. having alice in a dungeon embodies complete freedom and repression, like an honest utopia. reminds me of when the SLE those christian girls dosed faceplanted in a giggling frenzy. the vulnerability's absurdity overrode the 'take the apple' appeal.
    I was just wondering why Alice and whether the band Alice in Chains has anything to do with this idiom.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    nah the movie lol... the paradox of being trapped in wonderland
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    I wouldn't do anything to her, maybe tickle her or something. I find the concept disgusting even though she volunteered... I have no wonder or inclination to harm people just to see the consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I have no wonder or inclination to harm people just to see the consequences.
    Do you remember ever trying such?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Nothing definite, and I can't remember anything physical. At least, purely out of curiosity to see the consequences. It just doesn't interest me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I wouldn't do anything to her, maybe tickle her or something. I find the concept disgusting even though she volunteered... I have no wonder or inclination to harm people just to see the consequences.
    She didn't just volunteer - she created the concept and organized her role as "object", knowing at any time she could stop being passive. But she isn't really passive. She is provoking a nest of ants with a magnifying glass under full glare of the sun. It's a dare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Nothing definite, and I can't remember anything physical. At least, purely out of curiosity to see the consequences. It just doesn't interest me.
    You walk your walk but as an enthusiastic pusher of people's buttons, I feel like saying that you are missing a lot.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    I would probably have taken pictures of the performance unfolding instead of interacting with her directly. Or maybe I would have duct-taped her ankles together if I knew she was going to walk at the end just for the lulz.

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    You walk your walk but as an enthusiastic pusher of people's buttons, I feel like saying that you are missing a lot.
    I get the point of the piece, but I would not interact. That is my contribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You'll be suprised how effective a warning and some expectations are in keep people civil.
    Lick my big white balls you chink bitch
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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