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Thread: Why is the Bringer of Light evil?

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Default Why is the Bringer of Light evil?

    For the sake of discussion, let's forget about logical inconsistensies like paradox of free will, omnipotence paradox, theodicy and other things that might hinder a pleasant analysis about most monotheistic religions.


    Why is Satan evil?

    This graph demonstrates the death tolls of both of the parties. Only events with a specific number were counted so it doesn't include the flood, plagues, famine, Sodoma nor Gomorrah.

    The ten people killed were Job's family and God gave his permission to this action.

    I also found this to be a compact package.
    •Satan, like Prometheus, gave knowledge to humanity by giving Eve the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did. Satan gave humans true capacity for moral judgment, unlike God, who simply expected everyone to mindlessly obey his orders.
    •There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide.
    •There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.
    •Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.
    In comparison Satan looks like a hero.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    The incompleteness of Satan's power is an issue.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


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    Also I might add that:

    1) God is the creator of life, what god makes he can take away. Satan created no lives.
    2) Satan introduced death into the world, as the "knowledge of Good and Evil" was not academic knowledge of Good and Evil but first hand knowledge based on experience. In Eden, there was no" first hand" knowledge (read as "first hand experience") of good and evil until Satan, knowing the consquences of sin, introduced Adam and Eve to God's judgement. Phrased again, the knowledge of Good and Evil was the issue of "first hand knowledge based on experience" - knowledge by direct experience of God's wraith. Satan was not a philosopher giving to man philosophy, but a trisky trickster who forced man to become wise philosophers by exposing them to harsh consequences.
    3) Jehovah is a God of Justice and Mercy, two opposing ideas. He is Lion and Lamb. The angel of death has always been his loyal angel- one of the "good guys." Satan is the angel of the morning light and the chief musician of the angels. As leader of the fallen angels, the angel of light represents vainty, envy, charisma. He is the angel of egotism.
    4) God is the taker of lives. However, Satan works to make sure that peoples lives are wasted and life is fultile. People die apart from their true place and purpose because of Satan. God has always been the one in charge of death. It is man's choice to live a life that is worth it, and Satan is there to cloud man's judgement.
     
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    Well Aquagraph, I've considered the subject in all of its theological depth and have come to the conclusion that:

    BLARG RELIGION BLAH BLAH TRIBAL SOCIETIES BLAG BLARB TRANSFORMATION OF SPIRIRTUALITY INTO MALE-CENTRIC HIERARCHY BLAH BLAH ARBITRARY BULLSHIT HARDY HAR ONLY THE CLERGY COULD READ THE BIBLE YAR MATEY HAR PEOPLE RELIED ON MAGICAL THINKING FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS EEEK BLEEP FAITH YUM YUMS THE ELDER FATHER FIGURE IS VICTORIOUS AGAINST THE UPSTART SON GOOPTY GOO ONE TIME I SAW A GHOST.

    That's probably the most succinct explanation one could come up with, but I could go on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    1) God is the creator of life, what god makes he can take away.
    Infanticide is ok?
    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    2) Satan introduced death into the world, as the "knowledge of Good and Evil" was not academic knowledge of Good and Evil but first hand knowledge based on experience. In Eden, there was no" first hand" knowledge (read as "first hand experience") of good and evil until Satan, knowing the consquences of sin, introduced Adam and Eve to God's judgement. Phrased again, the knowledge of Good and Evil was the issue of "first hand knowledge based on experience" - knowledge by direct experience of God's wraith. Satan was not a philosopher giving to man philosophy, but a trisky trickster who forced man to become wise philosophers by exposing them to harsh consequences.
    So the humankind made a single mistake and for that all of their offspring should suffer from hard labor and menstruation and what not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    3) Jehovah is a God of Justice and Mercy, two opposing ideas. He is Lion and Lamb. The angel of death has always been his loyal angel- one of the "good guys." Satan is the angel of the morning light and the chief musician of the angels. As leader of the fallen angels, the angel of light represents vainty, envy, charisma. He is the angel of egotism.
    Well, he sure hired one hell of an angel for such a job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    4) God is the taker of lives. However, Satan works to make sure that peoples lives are wasted and life is fultile. People die apart from their true place and purpose because of Satan. God has always been the one in charge of death. It is man's choice to live a life that is worth it, and Satan is there to cloud man's judgement.
    Why is he called the Bringer of Light then? Deception? If so, does "the word of God" display his name in an ironic way?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    The OP shows me once again that I chose the right side (by being a heathen) if all that stuff was actually true, after all.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Also I might add that:

    1) God is the creator of life, what god makes he can take away. Satan created no lives.
    2) Satan introduced death into the world, as the "knowledge of Good and Evil" was not academic knowledge of Good and Evil but first hand knowledge based on experience. In Eden, there was no" first hand" knowledge (read as "first hand experience") of good and evil until Satan, knowing the consquences of sin, introduced Adam and Eve to God's judgement. Phrased again, the knowledge of Good and Evil was the issue of "first hand knowledge based on experience" - knowledge by direct experience of God's wraith. Satan was not a philosopher giving to man philosophy, but a trisky trickster who forced man to become wise philosophers by exposing them to harsh consequences.
    3) Jehovah is a God of Justice and Mercy, two opposing ideas. He is Lion and Lamb. The angel of death has always been his loyal angel- one of the "good guys." Satan is the angel of the morning light and the chief musician of the angels. As leader of the fallen angels, the angel of light represents vainty, envy, charisma. He is the angel of egotism.
    4) God is the taker of lives. However, Satan works to make sure that peoples lives are wasted and life is fultile. People die apart from their true place and purpose because of Satan. God has always been the one in charge of death. It is man's choice to live a life that is worth it, and Satan is there to cloud man's judgement.
    If God is omnipotent, then he created Satan with full knowledge of the consequences, and therefore is to blame for both good and evil. He creates people with "free-will" just to see them fall into temptation due to the qualities he gave them and thus go to Hell or otherwise not be allowed into paradise after death. Therefore God is a sadistic jerk.

    Please refer to my previous post for an even better explanation.

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    Well, you all can have a good time with Satan. I do not post often as I am doing something right now. In any case, what you are addressing is two separate issues - the first is the meaning of the passage of Genesis chapter 2 and 3. My explanation of it is sufficient. I am not God's attorney. The second issue is the nature of Man's freedom. Humanity exists between two contrasting elements, life and death. The passages in genesis frame human existence between those elements and builds on that. The theme is about a dilemma. If you do not buy into it, then so be it.
    Last edited by Saberstorm; 07-02-2012 at 02:58 AM.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
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    Definitely not buying it, at least for any historical merits. The message appears to be kind of anachronistic and fucked too, but I'm sure some can scrape away the shit from the gold flecks.

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    I am getting a bunch of error messages from this site when I click on anything, so I shall retire from this discussion until the system is more stable. I think the double post above me is related to this site issue. I am signing off for now.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    The OP shows me once again that I chose the right side (by being a heathen) if all that stuff was actually true, after all.
    Join me in the dark side just to piss off Christians.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    satan is evil because light has to announce itself through darkness.

    edit: figure it out lol
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Why is Satan evil?
    Because he was defiant of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    This graph demonstrates the death tolls of both of the parties. Only events with a specific number were counted so it doesn't include the flood, plagues, famine, Sodoma nor Gomorrah.

    The ten people killed were Job's family and God gave his permission to this action.
    But Aqua, you are forgetting that those 2.47 million were all evil people, who like Satan chose to disobey God, so their deaths do not count as any sort of evildoing on His part.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    BLARG RELIGION BLAH BLAH TRIBAL SOCIETIES BLAG BLARB TRANSFORMATION OF SPIRIRTUALITY INTO MALE-CENTRIC HIERARCHY BLAH BLAH ARBITRARY BULLSHIT HARDY HAR ONLY THE CLERGY COULD READ THE BIBLE YAR MATEY HAR PEOPLE RELIED ON MAGICAL THINKING FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS EEEK BLEEP FAITH YUM YUMS THE ELDER FATHER FIGURE IS VICTORIOUS AGAINST THE UPSTART SON GOOPTY GOO ONE TIME I SAW A GHOST.
    this needs more "BLARG" to be an accurate depiction of the progression of religious thought

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    YOU DISOBEYED GOD EVIL ONE AND SANTA CLAUS SEES YOU WHEN YOU'RE SLEEPING
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    If God is omnipotent, then he created Satan with full knowledge of the consequences, and therefore is to blame for both good and evil. He creates people with "free-will" just to see them fall into temptation due to the qualities he gave them and thus go to Hell or otherwise not be allowed into paradise after death.
    Truth there, which is why I often just feel like a little ant playing a role in this thing called life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    The incompleteness of Satan's power is an issue.
    Not untrue; for example, we can clearly see the consequences of Satan's temptation of Eve, but in the end it looks like nothing more than their own foolishness and a kind of psycho-somatic mistrust of each other based on a lie carried on between Satan and God. I mean, it was just a fucking apple, and Eve took the bite willingly, and we already KNOW Adam wasn't any better than Eve to begin with. So they were already fucked; God put them in a game they were never going to keep winning for ever and ever. And God made Satan, so even if Satan is a dick, it's God's fault for being a controlling, paternalistic ass to begin with! If he was perfect he woulda had perfect kids, unless he just wanted to see some drama, in which case he is no better than anyone who watches Jersey Shore. Therefore, GOD IS EITHER JUST AS IMPERFECT AS US, OR AN ASSHOLE WHO IS PLAYING GAMES WITH US
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Oh hey look Aquagraph already said most of what I said

    Surprise
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    I am getting a bunch of error messages from this site when I click on anything, so I shall retire from this discussion until the system is more stable. I think the double post above me is related to this site issue. I am signing off for now.
    I'm getting these database error messages too!

    God is punishing us!

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    One who defies god ?

    Bringer of light.

    Depends on whose god anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I'm getting these database error messages too!

    God is punishing us!
    But I havent had any...

    OH I GOT IT

    I still have left over credit from my first 12 years of piety!

    sc0re
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I fidgeted too much in church =/

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    Me too, me and my SEI sister used to play fight in the front row while my dad preached
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I might have actually replied to this thread with some responses had anyone actually had genuine inquiry and not, let me pretend to pose a question so I can tell you how wrong your answer is. Good try though.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    I think of satan more of as someone who defines god. Yes he defies him but the opposition of those two forces is what gives either shape and that is the purpose of either's existence. Labeling one as evil simply allows us to label the other as good, you could switch those labels if you like, but the opposition is more important than the labels even though the opposition is also the source of the labels.

    Did I accidentally do a paradox? I didn't read the things I wasn't supposed to do :S
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    YOU DISOBEYED GOD EVIL ONE AND SANTA CLAUS SEES YOU WHEN YOU'RE SLEEPING
    /fap

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    in which case I'd like a lake of fire in the backyard for my christmas present

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    I read the title and thought it was a crazedrat thread...
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    How i understand it is that that who defies god ( the current order) is the new bringer of light, and first persecuted and harrassed until others adopt his way. That who destroys the current obtained harmony like kain.

    Children of kain who force the dynamic current towards static wood boring walls, bringing them down

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    No harmony is ever mantained forever. The first evils will be the new dawning light


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYikxlJYdeQ

    CRUCIFY THE CHRISTFUCKASS

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    Evil are those who see the bringers of light evil the themselves that part of them is dying.

    Light is movement, moisture and heat so that which is most exciting option always wins and that is determined by the context in the frail illusion of time. When people even the slow fuck are wiped away by the faster moving light blocks when they have started getting old

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    Satan exists in a negative context, because there had to be something to account for the negative traits in the Human species. That's the merit; it attempts to explain and curb "undesirable" traits in humanity. Someone has to be the bad guy, and this was written by men thousands of years ago. You cant just expect them to be good writers by today's standards.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    OP,that aint no something you can get answered here.like,the magicol world of new age is right there waiting for you (and with it being constantly promoted by oprah oh boy is it part of some nasty agenda) .just google "5d earth","i can see angels am i crazy","illuminati jay z","indigo children satan" or just the thread title.anyway,the thing is that you sound like you are muddling through duality and that is like such an Age-of-Pisces-ish thing to do,duh.

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    Anyways, I'm on the side of the rebellion. If there's a big cosmic asshole that's sending my people to burn, then let's fuck him up.

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    There's a book called the Universe is a Dream.

    In there, the author purported the idea that Oneness is good, and perception is bad/evil.

    Oneness is God, "Christ Consciousness", the Holy Spirit. Perception, identity, etc. is evil and satanic.

    He also said a few anti-woman things like extreme religious people are ought to do. Meaning that he can't follow what he preaches and teaches because a large part of it is bullshit.

    The true Jesus WEPT indeed.

    Look, any 'Oneness' has to carry all the little small things (like perception and color) or it isn't true oneness- it is instead hypocritical oneness. It is is Narcissistic Oneness (which ain't oneness at all), since it is impossible for the ego brain to know 'everything' anyway, there's just too much information on so many things and information is created too quickly by everybody anyway. It's a constant hunger that never goes away.

    Oneness, the big picture, the eternal presence- includes things that clash or contradict with each other. The Everything also has the nothing, and also includes death. So far, nobody has known to make something older than Time and make it better. That would be a mistake. (Aimee Mann lyrics)

    Why would perfect christ/god create things like Satan anyway? Why would he create different things that cause conflict if He did not want them to be there? Why aren't we all just a fuzzy general oneness spirit floating in the sky, why do we have different thoughts and beliefs and different levels of aggression and passiveness and passion. Yet there is still a 'general human empathy core' that we can all feel it when it breaks but yet we still have different levels of sensitivity to all sorts of things. Extreme religious ppl are against Gay people because they don't see god as a rainbow of diverse differences and colorful perception: They see God as a pure vanilla white straight male. They say that's the purest form of God, before the lightning bolt came/original sin came and fucked everything up.


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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer View Post
    OP,that aint no something you can get answered here.like,the magicol world of new age is right there waiting for you (and with it being constantly promoted by oprah oh boy is it part of some nasty agenda) .just google "5d earth","i can see angels am i crazy","illuminati jay z","indigo children satan" or just the thread title.anyway,the thing is that you sound like you are muddling through duality and that is like such an Age-of-Pisces-ish thing to do,duh.
    I absolutely could not agree any more than i already do.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jennifer View Post
    OP,that aint no something you can get answered here.like,the magicol world of new age is right there waiting for you (and with it being constantly promoted by oprah oh boy is it part of some nasty agenda) .just google "5d earth","i can see angels am i crazy","illuminati jay z","indigo children satan" or just the thread title.anyway,the thing is that you sound like you are muddling through duality and that is like such an Age-of-Pisces-ish thing to do,duh.
    New new new new new new enwwewewnewnenwnage

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    I hope your christ comes down for you

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    no comes down on you, Sucks you dry

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    I'd really love it if you'd edit your post when you feel like you need to add some more of your insights. Makes threads more pleasant to read.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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