Enneagram Type 8 Faustian Bargain

[Azure Flame]

I read something in the enneagram 8 personal growth that I'm curious to see if anyone can elaborate on it some more through personal experience, how to avoid it, etc.

Eights typically overvalue power. Having power, whether through wealth, position, or simple brute force, allows them to do whatever they want, to feel important, to be feared and obeyed. But those who are attracted to you because of your power do not love you for yourself, nor do you love or respect them. While this may be the Faustian bargain you have made, you will nevertheless have to pay the price that whatever power you accumulated will inevitably be at a cost you, physically and emotionally.

What does this mean? I don't like the idea that people would like me only for my "power." I want to be very successful in life but I also seek close relationships.

[strrrng]

they integrate to 2... meaning they unconsciously deem themselves unworthy of others' affection until they've proven their 'strength.' not too much of a leap to see how this would be molded by our godforsaken world. man on fire is a more realistic depiction of an E8 compromise.

[Galen]

I think the greater point to take from that quote is that the more your neuroses develop, the more they overtake you and the more that other people see them. While you as an 8 may be keen on seeking advancement of your personal position in relation to others - or whatever you 8s do - placing heavy mental focus on this drive will invariably rub off in how you present yourself to others, and your relationships with others will be in part defined by how they perceive this drive in you. This pretty much applies to every type's core fixations.

[Azure Flame]

Shit when you put it like that,

when there's a goal I'm going for, I tend to obsess over it. I'll talk about it non-stop and people will just get kinda annoyed. Its like trying to talk to your dude friend who is too busy staring at some hot chick and he ignores most of what you say but asks you questions about his appearance and if you think it'll work between him and her etc. I wonder if this has something to do with it.

Somewhere else in there it says, "Its hard for people to love you when you're in your fixation."

[strrrng]

that's really true. I'm not sure how every type expresses it, but personally I've found a distinct polarity between my independence and need for personal commitment. it's gotten to the point where the stronger I feel about someone, the more I'll cave in, it feels like a blade slowly moving down my throat. fixations are like the opaque spot behind a camera flash, you know it's there every time you open your eyes, and can neither look away nor face it head on, but just have to take the picture knowing you may blink. with 8s I feel like this mechanism is the opposite to 4s, instead of caving in, they would distend to a point of critical self-consumption (8w9 probably a more implosive feel but yeah). 7s also feel familiar, like a disjointed frenzy of pings that move closer to a flatline with every repulsion.

[consentingadult]

I read something in the enneagram 8 personal growth that I'm curious to see if anyone can elaborate on it some more through personal experience, how to avoid it, etc.

What does this mean? I don't like the idea that people would like me only for my "power." I want to be very successful in life but I also seek close relationships.

It means:

ENTITLEMENT / GRANDIOSITY

The belief that one is superior to other people; entitled to special rights and privileges; or not bound by the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction. Often involves insistence that one should be able to do or have whatever one wants, regardless of what is realistic, what others consider reasonable, or the cost to others; OR an exaggerated focus on superiority (e.g., being among the most successful, famous, wealthy) -- in order to achieve power or control (not primarily for attention or approval). Sometimes includes excessive competitiveness toward, or domination of, others: asserting one's power, forcing one's point of view, or controlling the behavior of others in line with one's own desires---without empathy or concern for others' needs or feelings.

(http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm)

I'm not sure if this applies to you. Desire for success does not equal lust for power.

[Satan]

Shit when you put it like that,

when there's a goal I'm going for, I tend to obsess over it. I'll talk about it non-stop and people will just get kinda annoyed. Its like trying to talk to your dude friend who is too busy staring at some hot chick and he ignores most of what you say but asks you questions about his appearance and if you think it'll work between him and her etc. I wonder if this has something to do with it.

Somewhere else in there it says, "Its hard for people to love you when you're in your fixation."

stop being a cock.

it's as easy as that.

[Satan]

It means:

ENTITLEMENT / GRANDIOSITY

The belief that one is superior to other people; entitled to special rights and privileges; or not bound by the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction. Often involves insistence that one should be able to do or have whatever one wants, regardless of what is realistic, what others consider reasonable, or the cost to others; OR an exaggerated focus on superiority (e.g., being among the most successful, famous, wealthy) -- in order to achieve power or control (not primarily for attention or approval). Sometimes includes excessive competitiveness toward, or domination of, others: asserting one's power, forcing one's point of view, or controlling the behavior of others in line with one's own desires---without empathy or concern for others' needs or feelings.

(http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm)

I'm not sure if this applies to you. Desire for success does not equal lust for power.

i disagree.

[consentingadult]

i disagree.

Impossible. You can not agree or disagree, since you don't know shit.

[The Ineffable]

What does this mean? I don't like the idea that people would like me only for my "power." I want to be very successful in life but I also seek close relationships.

It probably means that this kind of person is judged by someone who doesn't share the same values. I heard before that people who long for financial success or power can't find true happiness or love, but I think it's bullshit. They IMO find their kind of happiness.

when there's a goal I'm going for, I tend to obsess over it. I'll talk about it non-stop and people will just get kinda annoyed. Its like trying to talk to your dude friend who is too busy staring at some hot chick and he ignores most of what you say but asks you questions about his appearance and if you think it'll work between him and her etc. I wonder if this has something to do with it.

You sound like an ILE. What if you're looking for the wrong Dual?

Edit: yeah I read your older posts, you strike me hard as an ILE, not a LIE.

[consentingadult]

It probably means that this kind of person is judged by someone who doesn't share the same values. I heard before that people who long for financial success or power can't find true happiness or love, but I think it's bullshit. They IMO find their kind of happiness.

You sound like an ILE. What if you're looking for the wrong Dual?

Edit: yeah I read your older posts, you strike me hard as an ILE, not a LIE.

Ne base for sure. My personal opinion: IEE who is heavily socialized by beta values.

[The Ineffable]

Hahaha!! "In relationships (BAM)... girls don't like Ti" Is this him?

Yeah apparently very Ne-Base in that video!

My personal opinion: IEE who is heavily socialized by beta values.

I incline to say that your proposition is better. Though I find something I haven't seen in IEEs, but have seen in ILEs - talking about intense feelings, like there ... hmm I gtg and have no time to review, but there was something i this video and something in a post like cool things that makes him feel like crying.

Just why "Beta values"?

[consentingadult]

Just why "Beta values"?

In some of his posts, as well as some other videos I've seen of him, he's using a lot of Se-role. Power language, power ideas, action language, that sort of thing. All more in the expressive style common to Betas, not Gammas.

To anticipate people saying: "but that could be Se-mobilizing instead of Se-Role, in support of an LIE typing!" It couldn't. Se-mobilizing makes a person look pathetic, you know he's trying to show off. With over-the-top Se-Role, you actually feel sorry for such a person, he's trying to be something he isn't. In a sense, Se-mobilizing is egosyntonic, Se-Role is not.

ETA: you're right about the "crying": i wrote about that in a previous post, which was my argument in favor of IEE:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post847689

[Azure Flame]

This is why I shouldn't post my type. I'm sick of people sitting here analyzing what I am instead of answering my questions.

[Creepy-pokeball]

This is why I shouldn't post my type. I'm sick of people sitting here analyzing what I am instead of answering my questions.

Bad Kitty! Claws down.

[Azure Flame]

mreowr

[consentingadult]

This is why I shouldn't post my type. I'm sick of people sitting here analyzing what I am instead of answering my questions.

Well, I did answer your question, but I also said it didn't apply to you. Apart from that, this thread is not your personal property, and it's not for you to decide what we can and cannot write.

[The Ineffable]

ETA: you're right about the "crying": i wrote about that in a previous post, which was my argument in favor of IEE:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post847689

I don't know what to say. Have you seen an IEE talking that cheesy way? Assuming these two options, ILE and IEE, I've seen only the former appealing to that "Shakespearish" sublime-evoking drama bullshit. "Bullshit" I mean through Te/Fi-Valuing, of course. And I'm telling you this because I experienced misunderstanding from the non-Fe-Valuers myself; when I feel compelled to express those feelings in their presence, it is like I'm making part a freakshow or something. I experienced this with IEEs in particular, they don't laugh, they seem to take you pretty seriously, but they're like... stunned and clueless.

[Absurd]

I read something in the enneagram 8 personal growth that I'm curious to see if anyone can elaborate on it some more through personal experience, how to avoid it, etc.

What does this mean? I don't like the idea that people would like me only for my "power." I want to be very successful in life but I also seek close relationships.

Okay.

Thing with Enneagram is, it is claimed that each and every human on Earth has one, one of the nine Enneagram numbers, not two, not three and not seven at the same time. Before you or anyone else disagrees bare in mind it was set this way by Gurdjieff himself who called it esoteric Christian teachings basing it on numerology where God has nine different faces. What you use now is actually the work of Oscar Ichazo and his colleague Claudio Naranjo, former being the disciple of Gurdjieff, which means what you use now was developed in 1960's, which further means it has a bit of additions here and there to the original, for example it was reinforced by Naranjo with 9 of Freud’s 10 personality defense mechanisms not to mention that Ichazo claimed to receive instructions from a higher entity called "Metatron, the prince of the archangels."

So no, it doesn't have anything to do with Moslem something and swirling as some very knowledgeable person on here claimed it has.

As for you question try to balance it, keep it on healthy level?

This is why I shouldn't post my type. I'm sick of people sitting here analyzing what I am instead of answering my questions.

You actually invite them to "analyse" you more, but cool, that is, some people on here will think "person doesn't self-type, I'm going to do it for her/him."

[Azure Flame]

Okay.

Thing with Enneagram is, it is claimed that each and every human on Earth has one, one of the nine Enneagram numbers, not two, not three and not seven at the same time. Before you or anyone else disagrees bare in mind it was set this way by Gurdjieff himself who called it esoteric Christian teachings basing it on numerology where God has nine different faces. What you use now is actually the work of Oscar Ichazo and his colleague Claudio Naranjo, former being the disciple of Gurdjieff, which means what you use now was developed in 1960's, which further means it has a bit of additions here and there to the original, for example it was reinforced by Naranjo with 9 of Freud’s 10 personality defense mechanisms not to mention that Ichazo claimed to receive instructions from a higher entity called "Metatron, the prince of the archangels."

So no, it doesn't have anything to do with Moslem something and swirling as some very knowledgeable person on here claimed it has.

As for you question try to balance it, keep it on healthy level?



You actually invite them to "analyse" you more, but cool, that is, some people on here will think "person doesn't self-type, I'm going to do it for her/him."

I've heard about metatron. He is the reason we have enneagrams? That's AWESOME! Now I can officially confirm my theory that enneagram is a cult.

[The Ineffable]

This is why I shouldn't post my type. I'm sick of people sitting here analyzing what I am instead of answering my questions.

My apologies, but first of all I just saw this contradiction between your self-typing and my impression, so I just wanted you to know my opinion. My first statement was strictly on the topic. Then, this is a place to discuss Socionics (Socionics Discussion -> General Discussion) so I assumed that we may make use of that, of the knowedge of your self-typing, to develop a bit further, especially because it is interesting to associate a personality of determination and high goals in life with the stereotypes of Ne-Base types. I honestly think there is no problem with that, and not that it is necessarily atypical to Irrationals, view that might have contributed to your self-typing as LIE.

The point IMO is to *trully* understand what's going on under the hood, in the end the description of that aspect of E8s entails no explanation, it's just stating some facts, which additionally, come from a particular standpoint (a bias). And as long as I returned to the initial issue, I might add that it makes some assumptions. One of them is that you are not able to pick the relatives you actually want. If you are such a person, that is what you want, that is what you naturally do, "coercing" people to stay the "proper way" - you don't avoid the causes, you only deal with the effects. You know what I mean? Let me give you an example: I've seen many people - particularly Se and Te Base tyes - who, then they have troubles in relationships (any kind, can be spouse or employees), they don't address the root cause, aka what's deep in the other's soul, but only try to prevent troubles. I've seen possessive woman (LSE) dealing with her husband's bursts that way, "let me go talk to him" - but that's no solution, IMO, you're just convincing him doing things your way, but he in fact has a much deeper issue, for instance an unexpressed desire which she is incapable or unwilling to satisfy. Things are really, not "fine", though these people are not doomed as suggested by that description, they just need help, need advice, unless they simply don't want/trust them. - see note #2 at the bottom.

Some background: you see, this view is pretty much like the positive analysis of a person or a society based on their actual deeds only, not their *potential deeds*. Formally. It is an important distinction to make, their actual deeds are merely circumstantial, there are many cheaters, thieves, rapists, paedophiles, even murderers among us, they just haven't acted, yet or ever, due to different constraints, mainly the law. I am interested in your opinion, DJ Arendee, do I make sense to you here? I am asking you this, because you don't have to, there are people whose cognition simply don't permit them to see this latent potential as classifying a person, but only what was actually performed. Ever seen the public opinion stunned when a "good" or "respectable" person commits a crime? They make al sort of crazy speculation, that the perpetrator went insane, that he is "not normal" invoking some ridiculous quirk, something from his childhood emerged (psychoanalysis [1]), that he was payed or makes part of a secret organization, and so on. That's just bullshit, though I can see their role in all this - in particular Ni and Fi Base types - and how they can open new roads that the future proves as legitimate. Such things are never a surprise to some people, the ones who understand that we are "good" due to personal (principles, etc) and/or external constraints (law, etc), not necessarily inside, though it might be the case.

The idea is that when you use means of power, the people under its influence - including your relatives - will tend to act not according to their *real* motives, but to what their environment - which includes you - allows them. That is what that description says, it addresses cases like having a wife that is with you for the money, not due to love, however, in my opinion the lack of love or respect is not a necessary consequence, although I agree that using that influence and only it to deal with people, you will have a blind spot, being unabe to discern, it's evident. But pictures tell more than a thousand words, I recommend you to watch the movie "The Punisher" (2004) analyze the character of Howards Saint (John Travolta) - he is a business lord who throws his wife off a bridge and kills his most trustworthy friend (in his case being also an employee) because he is simply unable to understand the real motives of people, he could simply not tell whether they were loyal or not after he was deceived by a set-up of his enemy. But those two people actually cared for him and loved him very much, he couldn't be more happy than that, his way.


Stereotypical real-life examples: Larry Ellison; Silvio Berlusconi, Muammar Gaddafi.

Your answer would tell a lot about you, and if you do not relate to that "power" view describe by me, you are that way - as described - solely on grounds of that association between you, that E-type and that description, although the procedure or the data of this attribution must be mistaken somewhere, as it ends-up in a contradiction to who is being objective.
---

[1] - well psychoanalysis is what I'm doing, too, that just refers to how it is commonly done, the Freudian-style baseless speculations.
[2] - SLE, IMO. Well that is a movie, perhaps the guy was very busy, as in my experience, IRL Beta STs subject their relatives to formal tests, in order to experimentally confirm their loyalty.

[Absurd]

I've heard about metatron. He is the reason we have enneagrams? That's AWESOME! Now I can officially confirm my theory that enneagram is a cult.

http://www.arica.org/

You have to realise that Jung, Socionics and Enneagram have the same thing in common, which is spiritual study.

[consentingadult]

 

Douchebag.

 

Said the biggest cunt on this forum.

[Gilly]

Don't listen to ineffable

He's a quack

[glam]

@Ashton and @consentingadult, please chill out

[consentingadult]

I don't know what to say. Have you seen an IEE talking that cheesy way? Assuming these two options, ILE and IEE, I've seen only the former appealing to that "Shakespearish" sublime-evoking drama bullshit. "Bullshit" I mean through Te/Fi-Valuing, of course. And I'm telling you this because I experienced misunderstanding from the non-Fe-Valuers myself; when I feel compelled to express those feelings in their presence, it is like I'm making part a freakshow or something. I experienced this with IEEs in particular, they don't laugh, they seem to take you pretty seriously, but they're like... stunned and clueless.

Like I said: imo this is a highly socialized person. And I mean that in both the sociological (i.e. made to internalize group norms) and psychological meaning (Freudian Superego) of the word. I agree, you don't often see an IEE doing it, because most of them are, like ILEs and other types, not functioning from the Super-Ego (mainly Role) functions. The cheesy ILE behavior described by you can also be explained by means of the Mobilizing function, which is why you can observe it more often in ILEs. In particular I would like to recall the forum member that went by many names, such as Gulanzon. When he used his Mobilizing-Fe, which he did a lot, it could actually make me smile with amusement, as there was no real harm in such behavior. Hence 'egosyntonic'.

The difference between this sort behavior coming from an IEE (i.e. Role-behavior) and that coming from an ILE (Mobilizing behavior), is that you can actually "laugh" about or to some extent appreciate the behavior from someone using their mobilizing function. Someone leaning to much on their Role function, imho, is typically not a pretty or funny thing to observe. DJ's behavior to me does not feel cheesy at all.

[Azure Flame]

Don't listen to ineffable

He's a quack

lol.

[The Ineffable]

Will you answer my questions, DJ Arendee?

[Gilly]

Will you answer my questions, DJ Arendee?

OBJECTION, badgering the witness

[The Ineffable]

You may now sit down, Gilligan boy.

[Azure Flame]

You wrote a pretty big wall of text. I read the first paragraph and started to forget I was a human being, then forgot where I was. I couldn't really keep reading. Sorry.

[Park]

@Ashton and @consentingadult, please chill out

Or the forum police is going to hunt you down.

[consentingadult]

Or the forum police is going to hunt you down.

They're most welcome, I'll receive them with tea and biscuits. Or some joints from one of the three 'coffee shops' around the corner, if that pleases them more.

[Absurd]

They're most welcome, I'll receive them with tea and biscuits. Or some joints from one of the three 'coffee shops' around the corner, if that pleases them more.

Three or fours stouts each and we have a deal plus you and Park have to do some lobbying here and there and everyone is going to be happy except those banned people. Casualties of war

[ArchonAlarion]

This is why I shouldn't post my type. I'm sick of people sitting here analyzing what I am instead of answering my questions.

Welcome to the16types.

You're totally EXTp, though... You're probably getting it harder than most here because it is so obvious you are one. Just the way you move is indicative of Extraverted Perception dominance. I won't post again in this thread though about the subject unless you request that I do, because it is off-topic after all and I'd rather not irritate you.

[Absurd]

Hey Archon you want to to kill Ep people with me. No offence to DJ nor any Ep people like PayPal, I mean consentingadult, but it is time.

[Park]

lol, that guy looks like discojoe.

[ArchonAlarion]

[Absurd]

lol, that guy looks like discojoe.

Haha.

[Absurd]

lol, that guy looks like discojoe.

Well...