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Thread: Standard VI fallacy

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    Default Standard V.I. fallacy.

    Standard socionics visual identification is extremely biased towards white, or caucasian europeans. V.I. is tantamount to palm reading. It also fails to account for children and the elderly. The posted pictures illustrate my point. I know this topic has been over done,- I really feel if socionics is going to survive it needs to cut the fat.








    I would include more, just want to keep the post small. Can there be some middle ground, when it comes to deciding a persons sociotype based on how they move, or what their facial structure is shaped liked? Or even the facial espression one habitually makes?

    Last edited by wacey; 06-27-2012 at 10:54 PM. Reason: Spoiler: Boobies.

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    I agree with you in the sense of the VI that focuses on physical features. Big nose, full lips = sensor, for instance. (Nonsense.) I don't know. I don't think VI is totally useless though... just largely useless by itself or something. You can tell things about someone by seeing pictures of them and videos of them and I think that's useful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaceysShoulder View Post
    Can there be some middle ground, when it comes to deciding a persons sociotype based on how they move, or what their facial structure is shaped liked? Or even the facial espression one habitually makes?

    this is the sort of VI that most people use around here.

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    Yeah, aside from Maritsa and maybe that one Russian guy Sol, I think most people type from mannerisms, expressions, body language, even eye-movement, and other more subtle cues.

    re: VI not working for children, that's not true, I typed all these children within 5 minutes of watching this show.



    clockwise: Fi-ISFj, Ne-ENTp, Te-INTp, Fi-INFj (or Fe-ISFp), Fi-ENFp, ????, Si-ISFp, Ne-ENFp, Fe-ESFj, Ti-ESTp, Si-ISFp, ????

    (Junior Masterchef Australia, season 1, btw)

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    SPOILER THOSE BOOBIES MAN THIS AIN'T NO DISCOVERY CHANNEL

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    Creepy-pokeball

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    ID'ing from 2nd face-on on caucasians isnt really helpful. I agree. That is why I criticized Maritsa on her lack of ability to recognize relativity. This is also probably why she is in accounting, which I think is well-suited for someone with her patterns of thought. It is definitely something painful for me to do, and something someone like her thrives in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    ID'ing from 2nd face-on on caucasians isnt really helpful. I agree. That is why I criticized Maritsa on her lack of ability to recognize relativity. This is also probably why she is in accounting, which I think is well-suited for someone with her patterns of thought. It is definitely something painful for me to do, and something someone like her thrives in.
    1 + 1 = 1.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    1 + 1 = 1.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
    but what is the square root of 69, and all of the 9s lol.

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    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae2point0 View Post
    but what is the square root of 69, and all of the 9s lol.
    8.30 and 1.0×1024, duh.

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    Creepy-pokeball

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    oh excuse me

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    So, you all practice formal logics. Okay.

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    I'm not a huge fan of VI, and not at all in the sense that you're thinking of it, like whether someone's neck is curvy or straight, or what someone's forehead or nose look like, but there is something in how a person holds and presents themselves, the expressions they use, etc. It's more of an "the eyes are the window to the soul" thing than the size of some physical feature or another. And a lot of people on this site aren't white and are able to use VI with each other and their non-white friends.

    So anyway I agree with your specific issues, but in a more general way I think there is something to VI. Even then, I think it points in one directon or another, and shouldn't be looked at as more useful than people's lives and choices and motivations, etc.
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    VI isn't really very systematic imo, it's just having a good grasp of types and a lot of interaction with individuals and making a intuitive guess at a type very quickly based on some limited information. It's a trained intuition.

    It's like some individuals who can identify people from their childhood pictures instantly.

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    I see people and I see them move and then I start nailing shit down! I weigh the morphological stuff incredibly lightly if at all, it's really about nonverbal communication expressing itself through the body...

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    Creepy-Snaps

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    WaceysShoulder,

    I was skeptical of VI when I started studying socionics also. But I found that with practice, it can be very effective in typing people, regardless of race/gender/age/etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaceysShoulder View Post
    I would include more, just want to keep the post small. Can there be some middle ground, when it comes to deciding a persons sociotype based on how they move, or what their facial structure is shaped liked? Or even the facial espression one habitually makes?
    VI based on physical facial structure, such as size of nose, distance between the eyes, etc. in my experience does not work. The areas of any relevance to VI are much more subtle, being parts of the face that can be dynamically manipulated by the brain and muscles: eyes, eyebrows, mouth, and anything else that is utilized for facial expressions. @eunice has been doing a great job with her Asian Typing thread as demonstration of what is relevant to proper VI even across races.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    I VI everyone, regardless of any background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Non-caucasians have types? wtf
    itt ashton's realization of his own blackitude
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Non-caucasians have types? wtf
    All white guys look the same, probably all alpha NTs or w/e
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Okay guys, V.I. challenge for you, since it's based on facial expressions and these are white people it should be a piece of cake.


    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Oh that guy on the right (and perhaps even the female in the middle) looks like my friend who has secretly called me 'Princess who's unable to live in the real world!' that's ok though as my secret nickname for him is 'miserable miser' .
    Once someone else called him something similar to his face though and he was most hurt.
    Him and I both have the tendency to be the most reclusive, loner types but while I dislike drama he seems to have invited it into his life.
    I think he is ISTx over INTx and most people who V.I.'d him on this site also thought him to be ISTx.
    Last edited by Shay; 06-29-2012 at 01:29 AM.

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    How can Socionics not survive?
    If everyone's gonna forget it, why should it survive?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    A professor at the university I go to who teaches phsycology laughed when I asked him about socionics. I have to agree. But I can't stop thinking about it. It's my dirty little secret. There is a reason the whole thing is not mainstream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Okay guys, V.I. challenge for you, since it's based on facial expressions and these are white people it should be a piece of cake.


    They are the same person and same type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaceysShoulder View Post
    A professor at the university I go to who teaches phsycology laughed when I asked him about socionics. I have to agree. But I can't stop thinking about it. It's my dirty little secret. There is a reason the whole thing is not mainstream.
    It's a common mistake people make, when they want to be professional or "serious". The whole VI thing is not really a big deal. Think about it: Virtually any field of study has some strange or controversial methods associated with it that some people use. It doesn't mean that the whole field sucks. If you don't like VI then just forget about it, socionics doesn't need it. People who are new to Socionics often stumble upon socionics.com when they type search words in google, and then they read about VI and they think that socionics is not worth their time. But Socionics.com is not a good source.

    I think many intelligent people are so used to knowledge being "institutionalized" and "defined" (maybe from years of formal education in school). Then when they hear about something like socionics that is not mainstream and with many versions of it, they just don't want to get involved because it cannot be real knowledge or something. Or "what will others think of me". But this is the real world where things evolve in an chaotic organic way, and you shouldn't just rely on "clean" knowledge for you to digest. You have to do the work yourself and be open minded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan View Post
    They are the same person and same type.
    What do you mean they are the same person? They are siblings btw. The girl at the middle and the guy at the right are most likely the same type, but the one on the left is most likely a different type than the other two. I wanted to know if you can actually tell me their types though.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    It's a common mistake people make, when they want to be professional or "serious". The whole VI thing is not really a big deal. Think about it: Virtually any field of study has some strange or controversial methods associated with it that some people use. It doesn't mean that the whole field sucks. If you don't like VI then just forget about it, socionics doesn't need it. People who are new to Socionics often stumble upon socionics.com when they type search words in google, and then they read about VI and they think that socionics is not worth their time. But Socionics.com is not a good source.

    I think many intelligent people are so used to knowledge being "institutionalized" and "defined" (maybe from years of formal education in school). Then when they hear about something like socionics that is not mainstream and with many versions of it, they just don't want to get involved because it cannot be real knowledge or something. Or "what will others think of me". But this is the real world where things evolve in an chaotic organic way, and you shouldn't just rely on "clean" knowledge for you to digest. You have to do the work yourself and be open minded.
    Well said. When I have some time I will elaborate on my thoughts of V.I..

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