Enneagram type 4 w/ anxiety vs type 6

[ashlesha]

discuss

@HaveLucidDreamz

[Gilly]

They can seem similar because they both "try to be different." With 6s this is usually comorbid with w5 and is more about finding a functional niche or being irreplaceable in some way. CP6s also tend to want to stand out for their bravery, willingness to go avainst the odds, conquering their fears, and so on.

With 4s its more about having a distinct personal identity based on integrity with the true self. They might not even look or seem "different" or" special" but there are certain things about themselves that they accentuate.

[strrrng]

I feel less anxiety being confronted by a cop than chatting with a coworker. everything is a blind soundboard, I never have more than a vague sense of how I'm coming across, except in key archetypal moments that I often try to premeditate anyway, leaving the entire thing feeling that much more hollowed out. the kind of anxiety 5/6's seem to have strikes a familiar note, since I have a 5w6 head fix, but it's more survivalistic, more about loosing the steed's reigns. kind of the way a hitman will be hyper-attuned to everything, pour over endless details of the job before setting out, with it all perfectly controlled, but there's still that teeming harshness. well this translates in my case to always thinking the stage will collapse and never being fully willing to let the curtains open. but then again, there is always a certain unspoken sense of integrity, not just as some copout for why I obsess over it, but when the trivialties disappear and I have to acknowledge... then it's just like, whatever, I could die now and feel no less real. but yeah, it's almost sociopathic having to spend every waking second in public making sure the musical scales are aligned before streamlining melodies. ah... one of these days I will show them, the sickle, ah. I am russian.

[strrrng]

the 4w3s I've interacted with (almost all were IEI) have never inspired much competitiveness, probably because there's that implicit distance, oh the glass shard blah blah. it's kind of like we just glint each other and keep it simple. my last acid dealer and I had a problem with eye contact, we would either be moving sinuously back and forth or completely honed in, and generally I prefer to misdirect peoples' gazes, since it seems like they're always asking for something. I actually can't imagine ever having conflict with a 4w3. the 'back up' in infected mushroom tends to snake out melodies in live shows to fuck with the crowd, the little bitch always gets me, but I can't complain until the cobra brings the final anointment. ah. but then there's 3w4s... they're always the best comrades, because conflict is too implicitly ingenuous to ever do anything but solidify the strife... yeah. at my new job I keep thinking about seeming friendly enough, somehow I find the more honest I am about wanting to kill every coworker except the attractive females, their words take on an entirely new meaning. I want to kill you for being stupid, therefore I love you, swoon bitch. this one time I was in the forest, tripping and shit, and this cobra told me to pucker up pretty. so I danced, and stole away with the magistrate's mistress.

[Gilly]

at my new job I keep thinking about seeming friendly enough, somehow I find the more honest I am about wanting to kill every coworker except the attractive females, their words take on an entirely new meaning. I want to kill you for being stupid, therefore I love you, swoon bitch.

lol being honest helps unravel the misdirecting tangles of strife...everything becomes simple again.

this one time I was in the forest, tripping and shit, and this cobra told me to pucker up pretty. so I danced, and stole away with the magistrate's mistress.

Brother Thompson would envy you.

[fen]

I think any type can have anxiey, the difference is where that anxiey stems from.
I'm a 9, but I used to type as 6 because I have anxiety and 6s are "anxious"....but it didnt fit all that well at all.
If you are trying to decide between the two, Jadae might be a good person to talk to. He knows a lot about the enneagram and things about it I never knew about.

[Absurd]

What kind of anxiety?

And fenryrr is correct, any type can be anxious. Anyhow, I think I know.

[ashlesha]

What kind of anxiety?

idk. idk if its even anxiety. its like a helpless restlessness.

like back when i used to dream a lot, most of my dreams were about trying to find something or trying to accomplish something and going and going and always getting set back and it was kind of like running on a treadmill and i never finished what i wanted to do before i woke up. and i could usually not even remember the details of what i was doing - all i could remember was that treadmill feeling. and that's what i mean by "anxiety" but i don't know if that's the right word for it.

i'm not generally scared of anything in particular. uncomfortable, maybe nervous, but idk...

[fen]

Generalized anxiety, it sounds like.
I dunno, those kinds of dreams are pretty commonplace. I don't think they really clear up anything about your typing, as it seems like the fear of not accomplishing what you want to do or never finding reprieve in a fulfilling end, which is a natural human fear.

What makes you uncertain of 4 vs 6, Kassie?

[ashlesha]

Generalized anxiety, it sounds like.
I dunno, those kinds of dreams are pretty commonplace. I don't think they really clear up anything about your typing, as it seems like the fear of not accomplishing what you want to do or never finding reprieve in a fulfilling end, which is a natural human fear.

yeah i thought maybe relating the dream would be a way to convey the feeling i'm trying to explain so it wasn't so much about the dream itself.

its not even fear really, more like frustration. but not about anything specific.

What makes you uncertain of 4 vs 6, Kassie?

i don't know how to answer this because honestly prescribing any one etype to myself just doesn't feel right - not emotional or concerned with expression enough to be 4, not scared or brainy enough to be 6, too comfortable with conflict to be 9. you KNOW. lol.

most people here have said i'm a 4 and i've kind of been "ok cool w/e" about it but i wonder if by ignoring 6 i've been missing something about myself. its not really about labeling myself so much as wanting to use the enneagram to shed light on myself.

edit: also when gilly described this feeling that has been plaguing me as "anxiety" in another thread it struck a chord because i've had people irl tell me i seem like i have anxiety and even suggesting i talk to someone about it which has seemed really odd to me and i've written it off because i haven't thought that what i've been feeling is "anxiety." i never really panic or think about worst case scenarios or anything, i mean at least no more than anybody else.

[Absurd]

idk. idk if its even anxiety. its like a helpless restlessness.

Okay. I see.

like back when i used to dream a lot, most of my dreams were about trying to find something or trying to accomplish something and going and going and always getting set back and it was kind of like running on a treadmill and i never finished what i wanted to do before i woke up. and i could usually not even remember the details of what i was doing - all i could remember was that treadmill feeling. and that's what i mean by "anxiety" but i don't know if that's the right word for it.

I die in most of mine or did in the past not counting those centered around struggle and those pretty yummy I would want to dream again. I do remember every single one of them, faces, places, scenery, etc.

i'm not generally scared of anything in particular. uncomfortable, maybe nervous, but idk...

How do you feel about structure?

[ashlesha]

How do you feel about structure?

what do you mean by structure?

i think i impose structure on myself in terms of certain limits and daily habits but then i don't like feeling trapped so i end up being bothered by how small my world becomes because of it. i guess i'm ambivalent about it.

in terms of something like work or tasks i like loose structure. i like to know what to expect and to have some kind of context to navigate but i don't want to be micromanaged.

[JRiddy]

idk. idk if its even anxiety. its like a helpless restlessness.

like back when i used to dream a lot, most of my dreams were about trying to find something or trying to accomplish something and going and going and always getting set back and it was kind of like running on a treadmill and i never finished what i wanted to do before i woke up. and i could usually not even remember the details of what i was doing - all i could remember was that treadmill feeling. and that's what i mean by "anxiety" but i don't know if that's the right word for it.

i'm not generally scared of anything in particular. uncomfortable, maybe nervous, but idk...

I would call that anxiety for sure. And though the fear of not being able to really get anywhere despite effort is common, a heightened awareness of that treadmill feeling sounds a lot like head-center fear to me. Like the world just has so many obstacles that you can never get anywhere despite your best efforts. And you're filled with a shallow but pervasive energy that demands action or thought or just-shut-up-and-do-it or clever tricks or something or anything. But you feel like none of it works and you're just fated to be a mere product of an environment you cannot overcome. And you don't want to call it fear because it's not anything specific but it haunts you like a ghost all the same.

But I could just be projecting on to you. Does that resonate at all?

[Absurd]

Thanks, that's what I wanted to hear, lungs.

[ashlesha]

I would call that anxiety for sure. And though the fear of not being able to really get anywhere despite effort is common, a heightened awareness of that treadmill feeling sounds a lot like head-center fear to me. Like the world just has so many obstacles that you can never get anywhere despite your best efforts. And you're filled with a shallow but pervasive energy that demands action or thought or just-shut-up-and-do-it or clever tricks or something or anything. But you feel like none of it works and you're just fated to be a mere product of an environment you cannot overcome. And you don't want to call it fear because it's not anything specific but it haunts you like a ghost all the same.

But I could just be projecting on to you. Does that resonate at all?

i'm super tired but the bolded for sure.

i don't know that i don't think i can get anywhere, a big part of it is that there's nowhere to really go. i don't feel like obstacles are insurmountable. its like i'm all dressed up with nowhere to go. but then i don't even know if i'm really dressed for the right occasion anyway.

[ashlesha]

[JRiddy]

i'm super tired but the bolded for sure.

i don't know that i don't think i can get anywhere, a big part of it is that there's nowhere to really go. i don't feel like obstacles are insurmountable. its like i'm all dressed up with nowhere to go. but then i don't even know if i'm really dressed for the right occasion anyway.

Well, I'm a 7, so the way the anxiety manifests for a 6 is bound to be a little different--it's different between individuals of the same E-Type too--but I'm trying to get at the core of that fear specific to the head types. It's not the fear of any one thing, but just the dizziness of having to make choices in a world that doesn't make its meaning obvious to us.

What you're describing sounds a lot like the drifting feeling many 6s experience. For many 6s, the anxiety is not often at the forefront of their mind, but rather a kind of backdrop against which their emotions play out. And nothing ever feels fixed in that shifting, formless background, and nothing really feels like a goal or an endpoint of any kind.

That's not to say 4s can't experience something like this too. But with them it always seems so internal, as though they find nothing truly fixed when they investigate their own psyche; they sense that that true sense of self they feel such a strong need to project is merely a construct. And their existential dread seems more concerned with "who am I in all this" and "how can I individuate myself." Although a 4 could certainly feel "all dressed up with nowhere to go," it's more likely that they'd be concerned with how their dressing does or does not reflect something authentic about themselves.

That's just my take. It would probably be helpful to hear what other 4s have to say about anxiety.

[Absurd]

Hey king of socionics. I think it is different.

[Gilly]

@JRiddy bravo.

[Gilly]

I think 4s feel more a sense of empty dissapointment with themselves, whereas head triad types are more drowning in their own mental persistence; 6s wander in search of which way is up, 5s try to calculate it, and 7s just roam aimlessly to forget that they are drowning.

[redbaron]

For me, (and I consider myself a 4), I find that I can lose anxiety by getting out into the real world and doing things. Even if those things aren't necessarily contributing to a larger goal. I mean, I'm never happier than when I'm on the motorcycle or playing bocce (don't laugh) or tennis... or even getting other things done. If my body is moving and I'm up and about, that pretty much solves it for me. Simplistic maybe. I've given up over-thinking things because I learned that obsessing in my head or even in my gut only makes everything worse. If you can let go and be here, now, things get better automatically.

I used to dream (which I think is probably quite common) that I showed up to math class on the final day--the big exam--and hadn't attended the class for the entire semester. Therefore I knew that I would fail the test. I don't have that dream anymore but I think, metaphorically speaking, you have to let yourself fail that test. Or walk away and don't even take the test. Why does it matter to pass the test? Why does it matter that you get an A anyway? Will you die if you walk away? No. Or, if you missed that opportunity (attending the class and learning what you were supposed to learn), is it gone forever? No, you could take the class over again.

Maybe it's about not being so hard on ourselves all the time.

[JRiddy]

I used to dream (which I think is probably quite common) that I showed up to math class on the final day--the big exam--and hadn't attended the class for the entire semester. Therefore I knew that I would fail the test.

Haha I used to have that dream. Except I always dominated the test anyways because Dream Riddy is just that good.

[redbaron]

Haha I used to have that dream. Except I always dominated the test anyways because Dream Riddy is just that good.

rofl Nice to see you, btw.

[strrrng]

yeah I've spent countless hours pouring over every detail of my conscious experience, somehow trying to blend the ideas of fake and real into one fluid movement... and it only creates a glitch. the issue is unavoidable self-consciousness, though there are always times where I'm either so immersed in some experience or just feeling lighthearted that the very idea of thinking about anything vanishes. it's partly because I have an unconscious belief that without some broader understanding of my states etc. I may as well just be a garden gnome, but these days I'd take that over the most perfect awareness. anyway I owe it all to acid. my anxiety is limited to an extremely primordial upswelling that always seems to strike at the worst moments... it doesn't matter if everyone's having a great conversation, for one, I already know what's really going on, and frankly don't care if my inner states are in sync with whatever program is occurring, because that IS disingenuous, so it's just a matter of efficiency. but yeah, it's anxiety that wakes me into action when I can't go on the hunt. I would honestly prefer to live my life always on the road, living in motels, like a more coherent version of memento. since childhood I've viewed myself as cryogenically whitewashed, which is why I've always preferred sleek metallic lofts and never had pictures or anything... it's all going soon enough. but yeah the head triad anxiety becomes clearer in this light, it's more depersonalized, like you know you're a cog but can't figure out or agree with why you move a certain way, and the environment seems like it needs to be constantly tweaked, but you're also waiting for someone to mold you without sacrificing control. well, it's better than always having to think about yourself.

[redbaron]

Has anyone read A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius by Dave Eggers? Oh my gosh that book is hilarious and sad and practically unbearable. Total neurotic consciousness streaming from one thing to the next.

[blackburry]

They can seem similar because they both "try to be different." With 6s this is usually comorbid with w5 and is more about finding a functional niche or being irreplaceable in some way. CP6s also tend to want to stand out for their bravery, willingness to go avainst the odds, conquering their fears, and so on.

I relate to that^ more so than drifting away... I tend to dread the unknown until I force myself to experience it..and then find it was actually worth dreading because it sucked or that it was much much easier and I shouldn't have given it any thought.
Many times, I get so anxious about a crossroads so much so that just to rid myself of the looming choice, I impulsively pick one, usually the one I feel is right in my gut..often times regret it after but somehow, someway it feels right when I do.

[strrrng]

even compulsory choices are gut reactions

[Creepy-male]

Main Themes of the Emotional Realness (Intensity) Group

Type: FOUR
Seeks: A rescuer, someone to understand them and support their life and dreams; Fours want to be seen
Fears: Abandonment—that no one will care for them; that they will not have enough support to find and become themselves.
Deals With Others By: Keeping others interested by limiting access, playing “hard to get,” and holding onto supporters.

Type: SIX
Seeks: Both independence and support. Sixes want someone to rely on, but also needs to be “the strong one.”
Fears: Being abandoned and without support, but also fears becoming too dependent on others.
Deals With Others By: Being committed and reliable while trying to maintain their independence; they are engaging, but also defended.

Type: EIGHT
Seeks: Independence and self-reliance. Eights want to need others as little as possible, to be their own person.
Fears: Being controlled or dominated by others. Thus, they fear intimacy and becoming vulnerable by trusting or caring too much.
Deals With Others By: Keeping their guard up, not letting others get too close, and toughening themselves against hurt and their need for others.

With fours its emotional -- feelings of worth
With sixes its mental -- sense of calmness
With eights its visceral -- sense of being

6's and 8's seem similar but I can't stress enough that with sixes its mental, its a kind of sketchy paranoid thought process of assessing who is trustworthy and who is not. With 8's its visceral, its a kind of intuitive perception of the power flow, who is in charge, and will they prey on you. With 4's its emotional, who appreciates me, who is just blowing smoke up my ass?

At the highest incarnation of each
fours are confident in their uniqueness and thus are valuable for their inability to be replicated (to be original and authentic)
sixes are mentally calm and focused on who to trust and who not to, making them strong allies (strong alliances with those they trust)
eights are powerful and self-possessed, masters of their own being and find ways to protect their own and others innocence without abusing others innocence (justice/magnanimity)

[Gilly]

even compulsory choices are gut reactions

Very important fact

[ashlesha]

the posts here are wonderful and after reading all of this I have determined my type is a tie.

[fen]

Does that mean that the real answer is the average of the two, being E5?

[strrrng]

trifixes will solve world hunger

[Gilly]

trifixes will solve world hunger

Constructive

4/6/9

No other way

[Gilly]

the posts here are wonderful and after reading all of this I have determined my type is a tie.

Then I determine you are a 6 by default. I don't think I have ever encountered a 4 who did not know almost for.certain they were a 4. 6s on the other hand tend toward permanent uncertainty and indecision in all things.