Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: 2012 most stable states index and Delta countries

  1. #1
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default 2012 most stable states index and Delta countries

    Delta countries, as expected, "most stable":

    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/failed_...12_interactive
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  2. #2
    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    Ne-LII, 5w6
    Posts
    3,648
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What are delta countries, in your opinion? Certainly not Germany.

    And central Africa? All beta or what? Come on.

    The stability is in no way related to the quadra/personality type we associate with the country. The people in the stable contries just don't have much to complain about. I guess you would start to go on the street if your government was corrupt (I mean, more than usual) rather then say: "Meh, I'm not the right guy for protests."
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

  3. #3
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    What are delta countries, in your opinion? Certainly not Germany.

    And central Africa? All beta or what? Come on.

    The stability is in no way related to the quadra/personality type we associate with the country. The people in the stable contries just don't have much to complain about. I guess you would start to go on the street if your government was corrupt (I mean, more than usual) rather then say: "Meh, I'm not the right guy for protests."
    The relationship to Delta countries indeed isn't causal. As to Germany, It has both Beta and Delta tendencies in it.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  4. #4
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,451
    Mentioned
    204 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Of course delta countries are the most stable when you define a delta country by its high stability.

  5. #5
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Of course delta countries are the most stable when you define a delta country by its high stability.
    But that would be quite theoretical. IMHO, there are different reasons for the stability of the countries classified as most stable. Countries such as the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries (all Delta) are probably stable because of their history of Weberian goal-rationalization. Same applies to germany, but this country's culture does not feel like a Delta one. But I doubt it also goes for Canada, Australia and New Zealand (Delta countries as well).
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  6. #6
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,451
    Mentioned
    204 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well then what makes a country "delta" in the first place?

  7. #7
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Well then what makes a country "delta" in the first place?
    How its informal institutions reflect quadra values.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  8. #8
    ■■■■■■ Radio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    2,574
    Mentioned
    153 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i don't agree germany is anywhere near delta nor that stability equals delta but i've lately wondered if australian tv shows -- out of the two i've seen, next top model and masterchef -- are marginally more alpha/delta over beta/gamma, the judges seem to be mostly judicious types and the two masterchef seasons i watched (minus the ongoing season 4) were both won by deltas. maybe there's some cultural bias there. to contrast, the american version of masterchef, aside from being a hopelessly watered-down parody of the original, is dominated by a beta (what's-his-face scottish guy) and next top model by another beta (tyra banks) and i think that reflects some cultural bias in itself. or maybe it's just these two respective tv shows. eh. food for potential thought.

  9. #9
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    i don't agree germany is anywhere near delta nor that stability equals delta but i've lately wondered if australian tv shows -- out of the two i've seen, next top model and masterchef -- are marginally more alpha/delta over beta/gamma, the judges seem to be mostly judicious types and the two masterchef seasons i watched (minus the ongoing season 4) were both won by deltas. maybe there's some cultural bias there. to contrast, the american version of masterchef, aside from being a hopelessly watered-down parody of the original, is dominated by a beta (what's-his-face scottish guy) and next top model by another beta (tyra banks) and i think that reflects some cultural bias in itself. or maybe it's just these two respective tv shows. eh. food for thought.
    I think aussie tv culture in general is very delta, i.e. most of their soaps are full of delta actors.

    As to Germany (and this applies to Japan as well), the problem with pinning down quadra values is in the difference between its formal institutions (laws etc) which are Beta, and its informal institutions (customs and social norms) which are more Delta like.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  10. #10
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,451
    Mentioned
    204 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    i don't agree germany is anywhere near delta nor that stability equals delta but i've lately wondered if australian tv shows -- out of the two i've seen, next top model and masterchef -- are marginally more alpha/delta over beta/gamma, the judges seem to be mostly judicious types and the two masterchef seasons i watched (minus the ongoing season 4) were both won by deltas. maybe there's some cultural bias there. to contrast, the american version of masterchef, aside from being a hopelessly watered-down parody of the original, is dominated by a beta (what's-his-face scottish guy) and next top model by another beta (tyra banks) and i think that reflects some cultural bias in itself. or maybe it's just these two respective tv shows. eh. food for potential thought.
    Well there's never once been a Delta winner of america's next top model, so there you go.

  11. #11
    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    Ne-LII, 5w6
    Posts
    3,648
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Netherlands, Luxemburg, Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries (all Delta) [...] Canada, Australia and New Zealand (Delta countries as well).
    Those countries also happen to be very rich (or at least not too troubled by economical problems) and have high life standards in general.

    (btw: The Netherlands strike me as alpha. Switzerland is indeed delta, Australia (+NZ) and Canada probably as well. The Scandinavian contry have also a high probability to be delta, imho. Luxemburg is too small to type.)


    EDIT: The only delta in Germany I migth accept would be old Prussia, but I'm not entirely sure, either.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

  12. #12
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    Those countries also happen to be very rich (or at least not too troubled by economical problems) and have high life standards in general.

    (btw: The Netherlands strike me as alpha. Switzerland is indeed delta, Australia (+NZ) and Canada probably as well. The Scandinavian contry have also a high probability to be delta, imho. Luxemburg is too small to type.)


    EDIT: The only delta in Germany I migth accept would be old Prussia, but I'm not entirely sure, either.
    The question is not whether they are rich and have high life standards, but why this is so. These things do not fall from the sky.

    What makes you think The Netherlands are Alpha? I can understand that if one would go by the liberal aspects of our society, it would seem that way, but this only reflects a short period of Dutch history, i.e. 1960-2000. The Netherlands are currently actually returning to their petty bourgeois mentality of before the 1960's.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  13. #13
    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    Ne-LII, 5w6
    Posts
    3,648
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The question is not whether they are rich and have high life standards, but why this is so.
    I expected that you would say that. Well, I think it mostly depends on natural assets. A country like the United Arab Emirates has no means to create much at all, no foundation to build upon. If they hadn't their oil, it would be exactly as unstable as the other African countries. But I admit that the definition of a "high life standard" depends on the culture of the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    What makes you think The Netherlands are Alpha?
    I won't claim that I know better than you (because I don't), that's just my impression. It's mostly the way the Dutch build that made me think that. You know, in Germany everything is standardized and regulated. You can't just build the way you want. If the ceilings are too low, you have tear it down and start again (and the architect can queue at the job center in the meantime). While I'm pretty you can't build "as you want" in the Netherlands, either, it's still much less strict. They have much more room for innovation, and the make use of it. We frequently see Dutch projects our professors recommend us to look into.

    Then there is the way the people want their houses. Germans build for generations (even if this tradition loses importance), but Dutch want more variety, it's like they don't take building so seriously. You can easily build yourself a house you like with the most modern technology and then sell it three years later because you now want to live in the city (given the life situation didn't change or anything like that). The bad side is that they also tend to use materials for mostly cosmetic reasons. I mean the building looks like a solid brick house from the outside, but it's actually made of wood with a thin brick facing.

    Dutch architects and planners are also highly inventive if it comes to the "water problem" some cities have (like Rotterdam). They use open water plazas where it is retained so it can slowly evaporate or trickle off without flooding the sewers. Genius!


    All in all, the whole atmosphere and the people we met gave me an alpha impression. But it's very likely that this was very one-sided and did not cover all the other aspects that are important for the Dutch.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

  14. #14
    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    TIM
    LII, 5w6
    Posts
    670
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Australia could be seen as a bit delta, and it's pretty stable. On the other hand, our entire economy is based around exporting stuff we mine from the ground, so it's not like our economy was going to be unstable as long as people want to manufacture stuff. Arguably, a lot of country's stability would be based around the facts of what they have invested.
    Warm Regards,



    Clowns & Entropy

  15. #15
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    I expected that you would say that. Well, I think it mostly depends on natural assets. A country like the United Arab Emirates has no means to create much at all, no foundation to build upon. If they hadn't their oil, it would be exactly as unstable as the other African countries. But I admit that the definition of a "high life standard" depends on the culture of the country.
    I partially agree. I somewhat agree with Marx who said that the economic substructure determines the superstructure above it. Also, from a historical perspective I think it is safer to conclude that (western) culture is rather the result of high life standards instead of vice versa, although obviously the two are both cause and effect of each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    I won't claim that I know better than you (because I don't), that's just my impression. It's mostly the way the Dutch build that made me think that. You know, in Germany everything is standardized and regulated. You can't just build the way you want. If the ceilings are too low, you have tear it down and start again (and the architect can queue at the job center in the meantime). While I'm pretty you can't build "as you want" in the Netherlands, either, it's still much less strict. They have much more room for innovation, and the make use of it. We frequently see Dutch projects our professors recommend us to look into.

    Then there is the way the people want their houses. Germans build for generations (even if this tradition loses importance), but Dutch want more variety, it's like they don't take building so seriously. You can easily build yourself a house you like with the most modern technology and then sell it three years later because you now want to live in the city (given the life situation didn't change or anything like that). The bad side is that they also tend to use materials for mostly cosmetic reasons. I mean the building looks like a solid brick house from the outside, but it's actually made of wood with a thin brick facing.

    Dutch architects and planners are also highly inventive if it comes to the "water problem" some cities have (like Rotterdam). They use open water plazas where it is retained so it can slowly evaporate or trickle off without flooding the sewers. Genius!

    All in all, the whole atmosphere and the people we met gave me an alpha impression. But it's very likely that this was very one-sided and did not cover all the other aspects that are important for the Dutch.
    If you go to cities such as Amsterdam, the overall feel is indeed more Alpha. This also applies to Dutch architecture. But for the rest, it's all Delta, although that's more hidden from sight. Granted the Netherlands are not dominated by rules and regulations, the country is very much the result of careful, Delta-style Te planning and Fi consensus.

    But most of all, Dutch deltaness is best explained by our orientation towards gezelligheid, "which, depending on context, can be translated as convivial, cosy, fun, quaint, or nice atmosphere, but can also connote belonging, time spent with loved ones, the fact of seeing a friend after a long absence, or general togetherness". With a little bit of imagination, you can see Si and Fi manifested in it.

    If you want to clarify it further, you can compare it to the alphaness of the Belgians, of which Expat wrote:

    Belgium and more specifically its French-speaking Wallonia region: a great social, cultural, touristic and even economic focus is placed on enjoying good food over a very long and leisurely meal. Even in very small villlages, the existing restaurants are individually pointed out with official traffic signs. The most "typical" way of spending a Saturday afternoon is to enjoy a lengthy meal with alcoholic drinks in a large group in one of the participants' house, lasting all the way into the night; for this reason, even middle-sized Wallonian cities look remarkably empty and quiet in the Saturday afternoons if compared to similar cities in neighboring countries. Moreover, the concentration of bookshops even in larger cities such as Brussels is very noticeably thin, again in comparison to other European countries such as the United Kingdom and Germany. All of this, seen as general trends within a country, suggests Alpha values with a particular focus on Si and very low importance given to Te, as well as a preference for low levels of energy, which suggests the IP temperament. Therefore it can be said that the integral type of Wallonia and perhaps even of Belgium as a whole is SEI, which however is not meant to have any correlation to the distribution of the individuals in that region.

    The attitude Expat describes here, is what the Dutch and Belgians call "The Burgundian lifestyle". But the Si-lifestyles of the Dutch, are more Calvinist and thus sober in nature.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  16. #16
    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    Ne-LII, 5w6
    Posts
    3,648
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I think it is safer to conclude that (western) culture is rather the result of high life standards instead of vice versa, although obviously the two are both cause and effect of each other.
    Yeah, I think it's fair to say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    But most of all, Dutch deltaness is best explained by our orientation towards gezelligheid, "which, depending on context, can be translated as convivial, cosy, fun, quaint, or nice atmosphere, but can also connote belonging, time spent with loved ones, the fact of seeing a friend after a long absence, or general togetherness". With a little bit of imagination, you can see Si and Fi manifested in it.
    Yeah, we have the term "Geselligkeit" which sounds similar and means basically (maybe not totally) the same so I know what you mean. As I said, you probably know it better and if you say this is your impression then it's pretty likely true.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •