What Information Elements are Associated with Knowledge of Cause and Effect?

[SacredKnowing]

We know that Ti is correctness, logical consistency. We know that Te is usefulness, purpose. And we also know that Fi is ethics and morality. But what information elements are associated with knowledge of cause and effect?

[pasleine]

Ni? Ni leads are always talking about this kind of stuff. Ni demo is supposed to be associated with "knowing the outcome of situations, but not pressing it onto others" . also Ni seems tied to Time, which i think is linked to events happening, for if there were no events happening, Time would not be distinguishable

[godslave]

We know that Ti is correctness, logical consistency. We know that Te is usefulness, purpose. And we also know that Fi is ethics and morality. But what information elements are associated with knowledge of cause and effect?

That's Te, the same causes produce the same effects . .

[on a peaceful hiatus]

Ni ofc

[timber]

Depends.

Cause and effect of what​?

[Chillaxe]

Pretty sure the definition would be Ni blocked with Te for things, Fe for relationships and people.

Should have said : as far as forcasting something goes.

[Ave]

Ti/L

[Ave]

Ni/T is not about cause and effect at all. It has no mechanistic perception. It doesn't see events as connected at one point in time.

Jung said that "thinking without an aim" was intuition, and thinking "with an aim" was thinking (logic).

Thinking about causes and effects (understanding why things happened and trying to make sense of them) is Ti. Thinking about the outcome of things (what needs to be done to obtain X or Y) is a Te thing. Ti tries to "make sense" of things and Te tries to see what benefits can be wrought from things. Te is utilitarian (outcome oriented), Ti is rationalistic (things need to make sense).

Ni is more about a feeling of apprehension of danger, but it doesn't know why on its own. This leads to caution and restraint. Ni usually is on the lookout for problems and what might go wrong in the outside world, but it doesn't try to understand what leads to what in a cause-effect manner.

[Squirrel]

Ni/T is not about cause and effect at all. It has no mechanistic perception. It doesn't see events as connected at one point in time.

Jung said that "thinking without an aim" was intuition, and thinking "with an aim" was thinking (logic).

Thinking about causes and effects (understanding why things happened and trying to make sense of them) is Ti. Thinking about the outcome of things (what needs to be done to obtain X or Y) is a Te thing. Ti tries to "make sense" of things and Te tries to see what benefits can be wrought from things. Te is utilitarian (outcome oriented), Ti is rationalistic (things need to make sense).

Ni is more about a feeling of apprehension of danger, but it doesn't know why on its own. This leads to caution and restraint. Ni usually is on the lookout for problems and what might go wrong in the outside world, but it doesn't try to understand what leads to what in a cause-effect manner.

So accurate

[on a peaceful hiatus]

@Wavebury: strong Ni usually comes with pretty decent Ti (if Ti is base, Ni is demo or activating and vice versa, so it might be a bit tricky to isolate them.

[The Reality Denialist]

Ni/T is not about cause and effect at all. It has no mechanistic perception. It doesn't see events as connected at one point in time.

Jung said that "thinking without an aim" was intuition, and thinking "with an aim" was thinking (logic).

Thinking about causes and effects (understanding why things happened and trying to make sense of them) is Ti. Thinking about the outcome of things (what needs to be done to obtain X or Y) is a Te thing. Ti tries to "make sense" of things and Te tries to see what benefits can be wrought from things. Te is utilitarian (outcome oriented), Ti is rationalistic (things need to make sense).

Ni is more about a feeling of apprehension of danger, but it doesn't know why on its own. This leads to caution and restraint. Ni usually is on the lookout for problems and what might go wrong in the outside world, but it doesn't try to understand what leads to what in a cause-effect manner.

Let's see there is something what Jung said about feeling too.

The nature of valuation by feeling may be compared with intellectual
apperception(q.v.) as an apperception of value. We can distinguish active and passive
apperception by feeling. Passive feeling allows itself to be attracted or excited
by a particular content, which then forces the feelings of the subject to
participate. Active feeling is a transfer of value from the subject; it is an
intentional valuation of the content in accordance with feeling and not in
accordance with the intellect. Hence active feeling is a directed function, an
act of the will(q.v.), as for instance loving as opposed to being in love. The
latter would be undirected, passive feeling, as these expressions themselves
show: the one is an activity, the other a passive state. Undirected feeling is
feeling intuition. Strictly speaking, therefore, only active, directed feeling
should be termed rational, whereas passive feeling is irrational(q.v.) in so far
as it confers values without the participation or even against the intentions
of the subject. When the subject’s attitude as a whole is oriented by the
feeling function, we speak of a feeling type(v.Type)

[godslave]

"Knowledge" is part of Te domain ( Acquired Data ). "Cause and Effect" is part of Te Domain (think of the Scientific Method for instances) there is a "principle of certitudes" implied : The same exact causes produce the same exact effects. Also Te is Dynamic logic there is a mouvement implied a disturbance in the status quo as it were.

Ti is static Logic there are no movement implied, it's the logic of static objects and their interconnections, structure.
Logical Judgement about "relations" between objects and Internal consistency between objects within a framework based on premises is Ti !

An atomic bomb is a complex static object. all it's internal mechanism comes from Ti (static and stable (hopefully !)). However an actual Nuclear bomb chain reaction implies a movement : a cause (detonation) producing an effect (chain reaction) leading to the release of energy and that's the Te aspect of it.

[Ave]

@Wavebury: strong Ni usually comes with pretty decent Ti (if Ti is base, Ni is demo or activating and vice versa, so it might be a bit tricky to isolate them.

I don't use model A, and so I don't consider activating function strong, quite the contrary (it can be accentuated though). (not that activating function is strong in model A, either)

In ILI and LII, the two functions will both be strong, yes, but I wouldn't use a comparison between "demo" and lead function to distinguish between these two types.

In any case, my post was about differenciating between the functions, but I wouldn't rely on it to distinguish between types.

[Ave]

"Knowledge" is part of Te domain ( Acquired Data ). "Cause and Effect" is part of Te Domain (think of the Scientific Method for instances) there is a "principle of certitudes" implied : The same exact causes produce the same exact effects. Also Te is Dynamic logic there is a mouvement implied a disturbance in the status quo as it were.

Ti is static Logic there are no movement implied, it's the logic of static objects and their interconnections, structure.
Logical Judgement about "relations" between objects and Internal consistency between objects within a framework based on premises is Ti !

An atomic bomb is a complex static object. all it's internal mechanism comes from Ti (static and stable (hopefully !)). However an actual Nuclear bomb chain reaction implies a movement : a cause (detonation) producing an effect (chain reaction) leading to the release of energy and that's the Te aspect of it.

I don't think you're wrong, as outcomes and cause and effect are related, but the Te attitude imo also wants to figure out what is beneficial, it is pragmatic. Ti wants things to make sense, hopefully not in a way that is detrimental to the outcome (some LSIs can be stuck in their own system even at their own or others' detriment) but it doesn't consider benefit for itself and those close to it too much. As a Ti lead type, I think naturally in terms of what I feel is just, because what is just is in my interest, in the long run. Giving out information others close to them might find useful or beneficial is something Ti leads have to train, it comes with the development of Fi (focus on close people is Fi, what makes sense more broadly is Ti).

I think I should have said Ti is concerned with causes, and Te with consequences.

[godslave]

I don't think you're wrong, as outcomes and cause and effect are related, but the Te attitude imo also wants to figure out what is beneficial, it is pragmatic.

Thank you. The word "beneficial" is connoted and implies a judgment of value (good) which is outside Te Domain imho. Pragmatism is a word that we are kinda used to when it comes to Te descriptions, it's neutral and chemically pure so to speak (yes I'm nitpicking !).

Ti wants things to make sense, hopefully not in a way that is detrimental to the outcome (some LSIs can be stuck in their own system even at their own or others' detriment) but it doesn't consider benefit for itself and those close to it too much.

Yes, That's the forceful imposition of the structure (Ti/Se) (My way or no way) some LSIs can manifest.

As a Ti lead type, I think naturally in terms of what I feel is just, because what is just is in my interest, in the long run. Giving out information others close to them might find useful or beneficial is something Ti leads have to train, it comes with the development of Fi (focus on close people is Fi, what makes sense more broadly is Ti).

I agree that Fi development is important. However "focus" on close people seems not natural to LSI because of a tendency to want to be universally "Just". If this tendency is somewhat too influenced by Fi then we can have some patterns of behaviors close to nepotism and that's the danger.

I think I should have said Ti is concerned with causes, and Te with consequences.

When we split "causes" from "effects" we have now another configuration. The presence in a given system of an object which shouldn't be there (foreign object) have most certainly an effect, think of the origin of the term "Bug" in computer science for instance. So the "cause" here is more a troubleshooting or debugging in the context of a Ti system or framework.

Now, "Te consequences" I'm not sure about that because in isolation the word "consequence" implies an antecedent and that can be undetermined or even unknown so there can be a doubt and/or uncertainty about what that might be which can lead to speculations and that's not Te but rather the N domain in this situation an orientation to the Past--->future events so there could be a touch of Ni- there.

[Metaphor]

Just saying, but Ni isn't really about cause and effect - this is a misconception. Ni possesses a fluid understanding of time (timeliness):

"Timeliness refers to the time expectation for accessibility and availability of information. Timeliness can be measured as the time between when information is expected and when it is readily available for use."

If anything, this is the property of static informational metabolism of elements (Ti/Se/Fi/Ne). However, if you ask me, causation (therefore, then, "leads to", "caused by") is not always related to elements - I would rather argue it is rather related to cognitive mechanics instead.

[Metaphor]

Now, "Te consequences" I'm not sure about that because in isolation the word "consequence" implies an antecedent and that can be undetermined or even unknown so there can be a doubt and/or uncertainty about what that might be which can lead to speculations and that's not Te but rather the N domain in this situation an orientation to the Past--->future events so there could be a touch of Ni- there.

That's Kairos. However, that's not what cause and effect actually is - Te predicts outcomes based on requirements according to their evaluation.
And that is not the definition of causation.

[Ave]

Thank you. The word "beneficial" is connoted and implies a judgment of value (good) which is outside Te Domain imho. Pragmatism is a word that we are kinda used to when it comes to Te descriptions, it's neutral and chemically pure so to speak (yes I'm nitpicking !).

No worries, nitpick away lol. Not sure about beneficial not applying to Te because Te does calculate profit. I see LIEs for example calculate all their decisions in terms of cost efficiency. The desired outcome is material benefits, though I agree that "beneficial" is problematic, because it can also mean things being beneficial in a universal manner, which is more Ti. I see Te (and Fi) as being directed more towards its close people.

Yes, That's the forceful imposition of the structure (Ti/Se) (My way or no way) some LSIs can manifest.

Yes, sometimes it is forceful, and sometimes it is just stubborn lol.

I agree that Fi development is important. However "focus" on close people seems not natural to LSI because of a tendency to want to be universally "Just". If this tendency is somewhat too influenced by Fi then we can have some patterns of behaviors close to nepotism and that's the danger.

But wouldn't focus on close people cause nepotism for any type? I do think that's what Te and Fi are more about: focus on close people. This isn't necessarily about wealth or power: usually it's more about sharing knowledge and information that might be helpful, or doing things to help close people imo. Nepotism is a trap of betas and gammas when they get into power because of how Se works. So I think it's common for LSIs to fall into it (as they often occupy powerful positions, especially D subtype).

When we split "causes" from "effects" we have now another configuration. The presence in a given system of an object which shouldn't be there (foreign object) have most certainly an effect, think of the origin of the term "Bug" in computer science for instance. So the "cause" here is more a troubleshooting or debugging in the context of a Ti system or framework. Now, "Te consequences" I'm not sure about that because in isolation the word "consequence" implies an antecedent and that can be undetermined or even unknown so there can be a doubt and/or uncertainty about what that might be which can lead to speculations and that's not Te but rather the N domain in this situation an orientation to the Past--->future events so there could be a touch of Ni- there.

Yes, I don't think the functions work in isolation from each other in practice, so it can be hard to isolate them totally. I do agree with @Metaphor though that Ni sees time in a fluid manner and is itself not responsible for the human desire to see causality.

[Ave]

That's Kairos. However, that's not what cause and effect actually is - Te predicts outcomes based on requirements according to their evaluation.And that is not the definition of causation.

Could you perhaps develop this more, perhaps with an example? The part about Te predicting outcomes based on one's evaluation.

[godslave]

That's Kairos. However, that's not what cause and effect actually is - Te predicts outcomes based on requirements according to their evaluation.
And that is not the definition of causation.

I don't know if the notion of prediction is part of Te, there is a certainty of outcome if you follow a set of instructions and logic of actions. It's pure algorithm, chain work, productivity, logic in motion(dynamic) etc. If you add the time factor (prediction involves time) to that then it's whole other thing imho.
I don't want to go to the territory of Poincaré's chaos theory because I'm incapable of that but the causation and predictability in a dynamic system depends on the initial conditions (I've watched a documentary about that few hours ago ahah!).

Anyway, at least on the physical level we have the good old Newton who said one thing or two about motion so we might find some clues there..

[Renna]

Even the same function would work differently in different Quadra. Like gamma SF Fi focus on close relationship more when delta NF Fi would think about it in society level more.

I don’t think the topic make very sense, but knowledge probably in Ti and Te domain. Even if someone observed something by their observing function, they have to filter it by Ti or Te before they can “save” it as a useful information and share it to other people.

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Common sense? I mean, it doesn't require much to know, "if I have sex, it make baby"

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Depends.

Cause and effect of what​?

Yeah, that was similar to my own thoughts. You really can't explain it through Socionics, lol. "If I do x, it will hurt Bob" requires something different than "If I do x, sales will increase."

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

The first thought I had when reading the title of this thread was, "is there a point in knowing this answer?" How is it useful knowledge?

[EIE H]

The first thought I had when reading the title of this thread was, "is there a point in knowing this answer?" How is it useful knowledge?

That’s probably how 95% of the world would react, barring bigoted individuals. Hahahaha

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

That’s probably how 95% of the world would react, barring bigoted individuals. Hahahaha

You speak facts lol

[Metaphor]

Could you perhaps develop this more, perhaps with an example? The part about Te predicting outcomes based on one's evaluation.

Also reply to @godslave's opinion about outcomes prediction in Te:

Socionics Te is known as the activity logic-- it means "weather" in modern Greek, but contemporarily, it has something to do with opportunity or time as in the "opportune moment" instead, which is related to events instead of beneficial purpose or creating a decisive moment-- in which deals with the external activity when it comes to the opportune moment of logic in its utilization.

Therefore, Te is Kairos (not +Ni according to Mr. G's Model G, this is false). In modern Greek, Kairos means "weather". However, in his Rhetoric, Aristotle defined Kairos as "the time and space context in which the proof will be delivered" or in other words, the delivery of contextual application of rhetorical proof in terms of time and space. He made a claim that there are times in each rhetorical situation when one needs to be utilized over the others then added this into the contextual elements of rhetoric, later concluded that different rhetorical devices need to be applied one point at the time since he believed that each rhetorical situation was different. In modern example, Kairos is defined as "a starting point for grasping the whole argument." But it can also be implied as "the decorum or propriety of any given moment and speech act, implying a reliance on the given or known", or as "the opportune, spontaneous, or timely." In other words, there is a sense of appropriateness in terms of its application.

Hippocrates then, who was known for his inductive reasoning methodology, later quoted, "every Kairos is Chronos, but not every Chronos is Kairos." This quote further implies that, in terms of outcomes, Kairos, by its application, does wait for the right moment to deliver any contextual element at a time. But despite of this concept, that doesn't man that every time is the right moment either (...not every Chronos is Kairos) since there is a specificity in its appliance to deliver this right moment - it needs a specific situation for such context to be utilized.

At last but not least, for the verdict, Te deals with algorithms, check-or-balance, and the phenomenon according to the specific procedure, which implies that Te uses a quantitative aspect to predict (read: estimate) the outcomes based on the evaluation about such requirements that are needed to achieve their own goal. However, it also isn't merely a tool for a detective to solve a complicated problem; it rather deals with the efficiency, pragmatism, and objectivity, which means that it is accurate to define Te as the algorithmic (computational procedure) logic.

[godslave]

One thing leading to another... Ancient Greeks and their Conceptualization of Time :

Chronos The God of Time (Physical Time / The course of Time)



Kairos The God of "Opportunities" (Metaphysical Time / Time of "game changing Events" Point of breakthroughs )



Aîon the God of Eternity (Cyclical /was -is-will ever be)



Those concepts have been used a lot in personal development and spiritual teachings.

[Ave]

Also reply to @godslave's opinion about outcomes prediction in Te:Socionics Te is known as the activity logic-- it means "weather" in modern Greek, but contemporarily, it has something to do with opportunity or time as in the "opportune moment" instead, which is related to events instead of beneficial purpose or creating a decisive moment-- in which deals with the external activity when it comes to the opportune moment of logic in its utilization.Therefore, Te is Kairos (not +Ni according to Mr. G's Model G, this is false). In modern Greek, Kairos means "weather". However, in his Rhetoric, Aristotle defined Kairos as "the time and space context in which the proof will be delivered" or in other words, the delivery of contextual application of rhetorical proof in terms of time and space. He made a claim that there are times in each rhetorical situation when one needs to be utilized over the others then added this into the contextual elements of rhetoric, later concluded that different rhetorical devices need to be applied one point at the time since he believed that each rhetorical situation was different. In modern example, Kairos is defined as "a starting point for grasping the whole argument." But it can also be implied as "the decorum or propriety of any given moment and speech act, implying a reliance on the given or known", or as "the opportune, spontaneous, or timely." In other words, there is a sense of appropriateness in terms of its application.Hippocrates then, who was known for his inductive reasoning methodology, later quoted, "every Kairos is Chronos, but not every Chronos is Kairos." This quote further implies that, in terms of outcomes, Kairos, by its application, does wait for the right moment to deliver any contextual element at a time. But despite of this concept, that doesn't man that every time is the right moment either (...not every Chronos is Kairos) since there is a specificity in its appliance to deliver this right moment - it needs a specific situation for such context to be utilized.At last but not least, for the verdict, Te deals with algorithms, check-or-balance, and the phenomenon according to the specific procedure, which implies that Te uses a quantitative aspect to predict (read: estimate) the outcomes based on the evaluation about such requirements that are needed to achieve their own goal. However, it also isn't merely a tool for a detective to solve a complicated problem; it rather deals with the efficiency, pragmatism, and objectivity, which means that it is accurate to define Te as the algorithmic (computational procedure) logic.

Interesting, thanks.

[Metaphor]

Aîon the God of Eternity (Cyclical /was -is-will ever be)


Those concepts have been used a lot in personal development and spiritual teachings.

Now I'm even more convinced that Aion is +Ni, not Kairos.

[Exodus]

Pretty vague question but somewhere in the Ni and/or Te realm usually. If it's about negative consequences of actions then definitely involves Ni, but it may require some kind of mechanistic knowledge (like say, if your car is making X noise then Y part has a problem).