Fe is for fake

[Aivonaima]

Inspired by a couple of rl conversations and these posts:

More often than not Fe comes across as "obviously fake and over the top" to me, and having talked about it with other Fi valuing people I believe it's a fairly common experience.

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts.

You are in the theater, accusing the actors that they are pretending the show.

I'm really bad at starting topics... DISCUSS.

[Beautiful sky]

When Fe is only trying to promote a certain emotional atmosphere that may be contrary to a mellow, calm, and one where there's no conflict and conflicts are being resolved easily, they can come off fake because it just seems like all they are doing is trying to get you to talk and for them to take the devils advocate.

[Pookie]

To those who see Fe as fake, i think it's because Fe will smile and be cordial to you. Regardless if they like you or not.

"She smiles in your face, but behind your back she talks shit about you all the time."

And Fi equivalent would just talk shit all the time, but wouldnt appear to be on good terms with you. Thus, Fe = Fake. Whereas Fi can come across as bitchy for the inverse reason.

[Pookie]

However, just to clarify, Stuck-up is the worst.

[JWC3]

I don't think that Shakespeare quote is necessarily related to Fe, I understand the connection that is being made, but he could just as easily be talking about playing various social roles (acting) than talking about atmospheric emotion.

As for Fe being fake *shrugs* haters gonna hate. I mean if anything SEE is the most stereo-typically 'fake' type.

My opinion? Engage bigotry at your own risk.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm bitchy in an atmosphere because I feel bad for my personal feelings and situation, not because of what's going on in that atmosphere

[Phthalate]

Nah, I don't think Fe is fake all of the time. It really is just about visually and verbally expressing how you feel in the inside. Some people might find it exaggerated, but some people are just reactive like that.

[mu4]

IMO, it's more like this

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ication-Styles

Sincere types IXFX all have 4D

Passionate types EXFX all have 4D

2 of the sincere types are ego.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post878895

Also I write about how E elements are going to seem fake as it takes into consideration objects/people/things external to oneself.

[Simon Ssmall]

I don't think there is much to discuss, it is an ancient topic and was talked about quite often.
Fi valuers tend to see Fe valuers as fake while Fe valuers tend to see Fi valuers as cold, bitchy, moralizing. Two different perspectives, neither is true. And despite the fact it is not true it would still be my natural reaction to most Fe valuers.

[lemontrees]

re: Fe/Fi feelings toward fakeness...

I think Fi-base are more likely to come across as moralistic and bitchy to me, whereas Fi-creatives are more likely to come across as fake and manipulative.

Hmm, it's like when some Fi-creatives go out of their way to be really personally caring with you in these little gestures, (like IEE's who remember your name or SEE's who pretend you're bff) and it's like "WTF you don't even know me"--I actually feel like I've been pulled into some tight space without wanting to be. It's difficult to navigate b/c suddenly if you do one thing or another you're "violating" some code of conduct decided purely by this person who, through their actions of solidarity toward you, now demand a certain response. Whereas with Fe, it's almost like there's a unspoken contract that it's not about personal relations, and so when an Fe person is being annoying fake, it's a more straight-forward kind of fake. I don't feel intruded upon--it really is all just "floating in the air" and I can choose to swim in it or ignore it.

[Ryan]

Role-playing = Ni (mostly) + Fe

[Park]

"She smiles in your face, but behind your back she talks shit about you all the time."

Argh...

[Codie]

re: Fe/Fi feelings toward fakeness...

I think Fi-base are more likely to come across as moralistic and bitchy to me, whereas Fi-creatives are more likely to come across as fake and manipulative.

Hmm, it's like when some Fi-creatives go out of their way to be really personally caring with you in these little gestures, (like IEE's who remember your name or SEE's who pretend you're bff) and it's like "WTF you don't even know me"--I actually feel like I've been pulled into some tight space without wanting to be. It's difficult to navigate b/c suddenly if you do one thing or another you're "violating" some code of conduct decided purely by this person who, through their actions of solidarity toward you, now demand a certain response. Whereas with Fe, it's almost like there's a unspoken contract that it's not about personal relations, and so when an Fe person is being annoying fake, it's a more straight-forward kind of fake. I don't feel intruded upon--it really is all just "floating in the air" and I can choose to swim in it or ignore it.

Very true ime, I know what you're talking about there.

[Red Villain]

I think it's more typical of the types with creative to be "Fake". This is because, within the operations of the creative function, is serving the higher purpose of the base function and gives it a sort of (for lack of a better term) "opportunistic" character. To illustrate an example, I once had and SEI confide to me she is able to utilize high levels of charisma on those around her if she ever needs something they would outright give to her under normal circumstances and saw no moral aberrations in doing so. Contrary to this, I was formally acquainted with an EIE who, after falling out of touch with members of her church, felt a high level of personal degradation because she was physically incapable of being an active and helpful member of the churches community (This was in spite of the qualitatively high levels of animosity particular members expressed to her in consequence of her "sinful" behavior).

The main thing that should be considered here (assuming there is any at all validity to socionics theory), that in having what Jung referred to as a "biological precursor", the brains valorization, reception, and production of certain aspects of reality over others gives them an objective character and therefore exist in a context particular to it's own modes of operation; irrespective of the labels we attribute to their perceivable manifestations. A persons ulterior motives, the functional use of an Information Element and our personal sentiments of their use are all very distinct things and I think that any attempt to give said sentiments objective emancipation actually, on the contrary, emasculates whatever real merits Socionics desperately clings to.

[Gilly]

Inspired by a couple of rl conversations and these posts:




I'm really bad at starting topics... DISCUSS.

Everyone wants to be happy, or exciting; everyone wants life to be bigger, more important in some way, for the things they do to matter and for day in, day out to not be a weary reel of film. Some of us have the energy to expend to make that a little bit more a reality, to take things to a slightly different level, to give a hue to life, even if it is depressing steel grey-blue instead of a sterile whitewash, and it doesn't matter if you see us as "fake," because even if it seems odd on the outside, it makes things FEEL more real to us when we can align our expression with our perception, and shake things up a bit. We are not robots. Everything is connected, so everything matters, and knowing that is not enough: we have to live it.

[redbaron]

Everyone wants to be happy, or exciting; everyone wants life to be bigger, more important in some way, for the things they do to matter and for day in, day out to not be a weary reel of film. Some of us have the energy to expend to make that a little bit more a reality, to take things to a slightly different level, to give a hue to life, even if it is depressing steel grey-blue instead of a sterile whitewash, and it doesn't matter if you see us as "fake," because even if it seems odd on the outside, it makes things FEEL more real to us when we can align our expression with our perception, and shake things up a bit. We are not robots. Everything is connected, so everything matters, and knowing that is not enough: we have to live it.

+10

[Gilly]

Role-playing = Ni (mostly) + Fe

Disagree

Most people I have met who are into role-playing, whether sexually or LARPing or whatever, are Si/Ne quadras. My girlfriend's brother is a LARPer and he is SLI to the max. I had a roommate who was ESE who was kind of into it, but had other Alpha friends who were all about it.

[Gilly]

Was the you directed at me? Just for the record, I list myself af Fe-creative, so don't worry. I'm just very, very interested in viewpoints on the subject. And I WILL CONTRIBUTE LATER... Ti egos ahoyy, I need your logic to build understandable maps.

No it was more of a royal "you" I guess or whoever was saying that to aqua, I guess.

[willekeurig]

Everyone wants to be happy, or exciting; everyone wants life to be bigger, more important in some way, for the things they do to matter and for day in, day out to not be a weary reel of film. Some of us have the energy to expend to make that a little bit more a reality, to take things to a slightly different level, to give a hue to life, even if it is depressing steel grey-blue instead of a sterile whitewash, and it doesn't matter if you see us as "fake," because even if it seems odd on the outside, it makes things FEEL more real to us when we can align our expression with our perception, and shake things up a bit.

Ehh.. are you referring to Fe types? Because this surely is not a Fe thing. Made me think of IEEs actually, but any type can be like that. I'd associate the "wanting life to be bigger, more important in some way" with Fi actually, but I guess the methods Fi and Fe people use are just different.

[Gilly]

Ok then you are missing my meaning then

[willekeurig]

I don't think there is much to discuss, it is an ancient topic and was talked about quite often.
Fi valuers tend to see Fe valuers as fake while Fe valuers tend to see Fi valuers as cold, bitchy, moralizing. Two different perspectives, neither is true. And despite the fact it is not true it would still be my natural reaction to most Fe valuers.

This.

[Gilly]

IEEs and SEEs especially can be very expressive outwardly and emotionally, but its not the same. To Fe types, there is an underlying current that the Fi-creative/Fe-demonstrative form of outward expression misses. I'm not saying they are (necessarily) being fake, but the internal origin of their expression is noticeably different from what Fe considers "genuine" expression.

And NO, it is not always so simple as Mr. Ssmall makes it out to be. Yes that is a common theme between Fe and Fi valuers but its not really relevant to what I'm talking about.

[krieger]

the whole "Fe = fake" stigma is the result of Fi types trying to find a Fi sentiment behind words and actions where there simply isn't one in Ti/Fe types. so when a Fe type communicates something resembling sentiment A, but it's not consistent enough to be real, a Fi type will infer the person really "felt" sentiment opposite-of-A instead, when in reality they just felt nothing. a Fe type communicates emotive content without the need for such a core sentiment. the "emotion" is driven by a pragmatic motive only.

[Nowisthetime]

Fe can be seen as fake but imo it is not type related so much, but rather related to subtype or emphasised function that any type can have. I know ESIs who show lots of (fake) Fe.
Some Fe creatives can be very not-fake (or whatever the word is) because they adapt to the emotional athmosphere around them so to fit in without drawing attention to themselves.

[Ryan]

Tell me about this.

Ni as leading function in IEI (INFp; Esenin) and ILI (INTp; Balzac) - "Fluid like a river": involuntarily adjusts himself to the interlocutor in conversation by taking form of consciousness that is best fitted for the situation. By this he isn't playing a role, his consciousness is simply multifaceted and he is directed by his inner "wholeness". That is, he simply presents a version of himself. Communicating with you, he always feels your moods as if he is living through them together with you, adjusts himself to this.

Ni as creative function of EIE (ENFj; Hamlet) and LIE (ENTj; Jack London) - They make for great artists, because they know how to and love to "become" one with an image of a man and play a role from his worldview. Often realize themselves in art and writing, as this is also a good way to use the function. They are able to enter into various internal psychological states. A good speaker, as he is able to influence positively on the internal state of others. Their product is the "wholeness" of the internal state, and therefore they can find success in field of psychology, because it means that they are the healers of souls. In life they loved to dramatize everything. Everyone around becomes informed about the slightest change in their mood or internal state. Usually they are very fond of "making mountains out of molehills", for them this is a way to find work for their second function. The more they become exposed - the greater the realization of their personality in the world.

Source.

Disagree

Most people I have met who are into role-playing, whether sexually or LARPing or whatever, are Si/Ne quadras. My girlfriend's brother is a LARPer and he is SLI to the max. I had a roommate who was ESE who was kind of into it, but had other Alpha friends who were all about it.

Who said anything about quadras?

[Beautiful sky]

Can we please stop calling each other "fake"?

No one is fake, no type is fake. "our side" is familiar and comfortable, and their side is strange, but not fake, not any more fake than our own.

[Gilly]

Can we please stop calling each other "fake"?

No one is fake, no type is fake. "our side" is familiar and comfortable, and their side is strange, but not fake, not any more fake than our own.

<3

[JWC3]

Can we please stop calling each other "fake"?

No one is fake, no type is fake. "our side" is familiar and comfortable, and their side is strange, but not fake, not any more fake than our own.

Naw, I'm pretty fake. It makes me feel better if we say it's type related.

[Beautiful sky]

I NEED SLE to make me feel strong, again.

[Pookie]

I NEED SLE to make me feel strong, again.

Stop being so fuckin' fake

[Beautiful sky]

Stop being so fuckin' fake

Interesting. why would that come off fake? I really do value my SLE friendships because these are the friends who tell me to do things because I'm good at them.

[Pookie]

It's... it's the thread... Fe is for fake. Y no understand?

[Creepy-pokeball]

She's literal, and some forms of humor translate bad online, which is unfortunate.

[Beautiful sky]

She's literal, and some forms of humor translate bad online, which is unfortunate.

Yeah.

[noid]

I don't think there is much to discuss, it is an ancient topic and was talked about quite often.
Fi valuers tend to see Fe valuers as fake while Fe valuers tend to see Fi valuers as cold, bitchy, moralizing. Two different perspectives, neither is true. And despite the fact it is not true it would still be my natural reaction to most Fe valuers.

This.

Yes. Perhaps it's even generalizable to introverted info element see the extroverted version as "superficial" or something in this vein.

[fen]

Largely why I can't be Fe ego. Cause I can't pretend to be anything I'm not. I can't pretend to be happy if I'm not, at least longterm. I can't pretend my feelings. Well, I can, but with limited endurance. It wears me out and I lose myself and I get nothing back in these situations typically. I do it for the sake of others, which is fine...but sometimes it gets to the point where it's not even appreciated, what I do, and I end up bending over backwards for people who wouldn't do the same for me. If I really care about a person, I will do this...almost to no end, but...it really isn't constructive for me to do so longterm.

[Pookie]

Largely why I can't be Fe ego. Cause I can't pretend to be anything I'm not. I can't pretend to be happy if I'm not, at least longterm. I can't pretend my feelings. Well, I can, but with limited endurance. It wears me out and I lose myself and I get nothing back in these situations typically. I do it for the sake of others, which is fine...but sometimes it gets to the point where it's not even appreciated, what I do, and I end up bending over backwards for people who wouldn't do the same for me. If I really care about a person, I will do this...almost to no end, but...it really isn't constructive for me to do so longterm.

Right on. You decided your type!

[redbaron]

I sometimes use fake (happy) emotions to cover up difficult ones. I don't like this about myself. But it makes things easier in the short term when I can't deal with the difficult ones effectively when I'm not sure yet how I feel yet don't want to disturb the here-and-now atmosphere. I don't suggest it though.

[Gilly]

I sometimes use fake (happy) emotions to cover up difficult ones. I don't like this about myself. But it makes things easier in the short term when I can't deal with the difficult ones effectively when I'm not sure yet how I feel yet don't want to disturb the here-and-now atmosphere. I don't suggest it though.

Yeah, no.

[Beautiful sky]

Largely why I can't be Fe ego. Cause I can't pretend to be anything I'm not. I can't pretend to be happy if I'm not, at least longterm. I can't pretend my feelings. Well, I can, but with limited endurance. It wears me out and I lose myself and I get nothing back in these situations typically. I do it for the sake of others, which is fine...but sometimes it gets to the point where it's not even appreciated, what I do, and I end up bending over backwards for people who wouldn't do the same for me. If I really care about a person, I will do this...almost to no end, but...it really isn't constructive for me to do so longterm.

Fen, why do you feel like you have to give so much of yourself? Is it because you see the need for it, but you expect it to be returned and it's not?