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Thread: The EP vs IP Dilemma

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    Generator of Irony HandiAce's Avatar
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    Default The EP vs. IP Dilemma

    I know I'm really nitpicking at myself here, but I fee like this is something that should be resolved.

    I have reasons to suspect I might be an IP temperament despite looking like and acting like a silly Ne-ego:



    The reasons:

    - The roles I usually play with groups of friends is not so much to instigate, but to tag along and add anything I might find interesting along the way.
    - I don't maintain contacts with people. Contacts are only maintained based on the others' will to maintain contact with me or if they are providing something important enough to my own personal quests.
    - I am a melancholy type on another temperament which gears toward introversion, though it is not pure melancholy. More like Melancholy-Sanguine or Melancholy-Phlegmatic. The essential drive behind the melancholy is doing the right things for oneself. Self-esteem is not very high because of this.
    - I have had problems with inertia and getting myself to take action towards something. Without a clear reason to do something, I don't move, resulting in me not doing anything at all.
    - My parents have been disturbed by my lack of a will to go out with friends and take my social life to a higher level. I never felt the need, even though there is likely a fear of rejection playing into this.

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    Gravolez's Avatar
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    I don't see a big dilemma here
    INFP or INTP seems likely.The way you write reminds me of my own way of writing and I am INTP but that's hardly a strong argument. A notable difference between INTP and INFP is that INTPs keep their feelings to themselves and are better at gathering information and facts while INFPs are more communicative and expressive but usually prefer to ask a person that they trust instead of to try and work out the facts by themselves (or at least they often seek confirmation/consultation about the facts that they gather). INTPs might get annoyed at emotional outbursts from people around them and tend to focus on how to be optimal and delay doing stuff. INFPs have occasional emotional outbursts and are generally good in dealing with people.
    Both INTP and INFP can be inert but INTP more so.

    Edit: still ... by looking at your writing it seems precise (in terms of clarity) and structured and I associate that style with INTP.
    Second edit: I might be blamed that I see what I want to see but what I think I see is that you are an INTP(ILI).

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    How do relate to the romance styles, out of interest?
    Also, do you relate to Ti-polr or Te-polr, or neither?

    I mean, what you described below your picture seems consistent with IP temperament.
    I would like to add that I am hardly like a stereotypical silly Ne ego, although I do have my moments. I think deltas in general are pretty subdued in comparison to other quadras.

    You do seem like the kind of person I would want to take on an adventure or something. Maybe you are IP.

    If you were IP, do you think you would be feeling type?
    Last edited by fen; 05-16-2012 at 01:41 AM.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    ILE it is. Had you at IEE. I nail P functions consistently and ass up J functions a lot. The more you write, the more I see Ti > Fi.

    Introverted/Extroverted as per Socionics =/= Introverted/Extroverted in general. The Fe-SEIs I know are on average pretty damn loud and people-friendly, go get one

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    ILE's are not melancholic and EP types are the ones who tend to start conversations and try to get to other people.

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    ഗന᎕ᒹ ±ᗉᚔXᙂഗ woofwoofl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    ILE's are not melancholic
    - he never said he was strictly Melancholic
    - check this shit out and look under Judicious

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    EP types are the ones who tend to start conversations and try to get to other people.
    not always the case with the ones I know, especially the IEEs! Also not at the exclusion of the other temperaments, especially EJ...

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    He does not have to say he is strictly melancholic. What do you see in his writing that makes you think he is judicious?
    I don't get your second point too.
    First he says he does not look out for people and does not actively seek human contact.
    Then you are saying he is EP despite what he said and then you go on to say that EJ also tend to go out and seek human contact .... how exactly does that help you prove your point?

    And furthermore:
    - I have had problems with inertia and getting myself to take action towards something. Without a clear reason to do something, I don't move, resulting in me not doing anything at all.

    This is too familiar to me and is typical for INTP and INFP, while ENTPs are more inclined to go right out and do stuff for no good reason without having considered all the implications and consequences.

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    The most effective way to locate a quadra IMO, is to cross-reference the dichotomies Merry/Serious Judicious/Decisive Aristocratic/Democratic

    Ti/Fe types relate to Merry, and Fi/Te to Serious
    Ni/Se to Decisive, Ne/Si to Judicious
    Aristocratic to nf/st, and democratic to nt/sf

    If you have a really tough time finding a firm stance on the dichotomies, i would honestly lean judicious from my experience. The decisive types usually are firmer on how they feel about themselves in that regard.
    ____

    It is very much an Introvert thing to not seek contact, since an extrovert needs contact to recharge and invigorate themself. All the hermit's and recluse's i've ever met were Ip's and IJ's. And to be quite honest, F's as well.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    He does not have to say he is strictly melancholic. What do you see in his writing that makes you think he is judicious?
    I don't get your second point too.
    First he says he does not look out for people and does not actively seek human contact.
    Then you are saying he is EP despite what he said and then you go on to say that EJ also tend to go out and seek human contact .... how exactly does that help you prove your point?

    And furthermore:
    - I have had problems with inertia and getting myself to take action towards something. Without a clear reason to do something, I don't move, resulting in me not doing anything at all.

    This is too familiar to me and is typical for INTP and INFP, while ENTPs are more inclined to go right out and do stuff for no good reason without having considered all the implications and consequences.
    Your use of MBTI style acronyms and stereotypical, superficial behavioral cues gives you a way as not knowing what the fuck you're talking about.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Yes, of course, the notation that is used is of paramount importance. Probably among the people you know the ones that are familiar with MBTI and don't know shit about socionics use the MBTI notation. I on the other hand use it because I am more comfortable with it, though I don't know as much about MBTI as I know about socionics. Which does not necessarily mean I know much.
    As far as my superficial stereotypical behavioral cues ... you could be right. Though I think you threw in the adjective "stereotypical" trying to imply that it is a bad thing while according to my understanding socionics is mostly about stereotypes. I would not argue about what I wrote being superficial.

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    Would I sound smarter if I pointed out places in the text where:
    -his statements are inconclusive and full of clarifications and
    -where he talks about himself as if he is watching from the outside and
    -where he points out cause and effect relations and
    -maintains contacts that are useful and/or provide interesting information and
    -is not sure about his feelings

    I really might be wrong and I don't have any experience with typing people by what they write. Also I admit that in this particular case I typed him because his style of writing reminds of my own: how I always want to choose the most precise way of expressing what I want to say and I always try to make sure I have communicated to the other party the level of certainty that I have about what I say. Also the things he wrote correspond to my own views and behaviour. So shallow as my observations may be(or seem) I see no reason why I would be wrong about his type even though in this particular case I will probably not be able to provide the type of rationalization of my views that you would require in order to say that I know what I am talking about.

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    Generator of Irony HandiAce's Avatar
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    Here are the reasons I might be an ILE:

    I like understanding how things that interest me work. I believe everything happens for a reason.

    The reason I think I'm not an ILE:

    They tend to argue for the sake of arguing which I don't do. I try to end arguments.

    The only legitimate reason I'm convincing myself I may not be an EP temperament is because I don't get things moving like an instigator.
    @Gravolez , The only reason I'm asking for clarifications and trying to approach this subject because its important enough to me that I get the right answer. Getting the right answer just seems so important for some reason.

    I think people on these typology forums and in real life TAUGHT me how to communicate with more precision and clarity rather than it being a personal paramount need, so it must be valued somehow...

    What's paramount to me is finding what's most interesting and picking the right paths...

    Because I want to pick the right path and there is no absolute answer I can choose (because everyone has a different opinion on how the system works), this makes this system difficult to work with, seeing how I fit into a whole picture relative to other people.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    Yes, of course, the notation that is used is of paramount importance.
    No, but in your case it happens to be telling.

    Probably among the people you know the ones that are familiar with MBTI and don't know shit about socionics use the MBTI notation. I on the other hand use it because I am more comfortable with it, though I don't know as much about MBTI as I know about socionics. Which does not necessarily mean I know much.
    As far as my superficial stereotypical behavioral cues ... you could be right. Though I think you threw in the adjective "stereotypical" trying to imply that it is a bad thing while according to my understanding socionics is mostly about stereotypes. I would not argue about what I wrote being superficial.
    Well, it IS about types, but I think they are much more nuanced than the "stereotypes" we usually think of.

    I'm sorry if this came off as me just berating you for not knowing.

    The thing about Socionics is, it's a theory of cognition, whereas most other typologies are theories of behavior. While the lines get blurred a lot due to the fact that behavior is observable and cognition isn't, as you spend more time reading here, and delving into Socionics and Jungian literature, you find that, while behaviors in isolation usually tell us very little about how a person thinks, when considered in proper context and in relation to the person's whole personality, they can be telling.

    To me, filtering out information that is "socionics relevant" is a bit like those pictures you see in mall stands and books at Brookstone that you have to focus on really hard and kind of blur your eyes a little, but eventually this 3D image pops off the paper at you. Learning socionics is kind of like that, in a way; you can't always just look at a person, and assume that everything you need to type them is right there in front of you; you have to tweak your perception, and think in a couple of extra analytical steps, putting all of the pieces together to make a whole, before things will really start making sense.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Also a lot of it is simply about exposure and observing people of various types to see the underlying commonalities. That, IMO, is more central to learning to type people than anything else, although I will say it is a dangerous method to use without tempering it with cross-checking and more qualifiable forms analysis.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    What you wrote was quite boring and with some parts I agree with other I don't but ...
    Right now, for example, I feel your supervision and it's pretty annoying because EIEs tend to talk without saying much constructive and helpful things like for example: what do you think the type of HandiAce is and why. And also why do you think my arguments for him being an ILI are wrong other than your argument that I am narrow minded and I have succumbed to shallow stereotypes

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandiAce View Post
    What's paramount to me is finding what's most interesting and picking the right paths...

    Because I want to pick the right path and there is no absolute answer I can choose (because everyone has a different opinion on how the system works), this makes this system difficult to work with, seeing how I fit into a whole picture relative to other people.
    Seems Fi>Ti to me, but what do I know.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    "(because everyone has a different opinion on how the system works), this makes this system difficult to work with, seeing how I fit into a whole picture relative to other people."
    Quote Originally Posted by fenryrr View Post
    Seems Fi>Ti to me, but what do I know.
    To me that looks more like observation followed by analysis of how useful/practical the observed phenomenon is. That is to say ... HandiAce is probably an ILI

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    "(because everyone has a different opinion on how the system works), this makes this system difficult to work with, seeing how I fit into a whole picture relative to other people."


    To me that looks more like observation followed by analysis of how useful/practical the observed phenomenon is. That is to say ... HandiAce is probably an ILI
    I don't think Ace is Fe-polr. :S
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Well ... he could be IEI. In any case I sense the Ni is strong in this one
    But then again ... I could be shallow and ignorant. @HandiAce, why don't you just read IEI and ILI descriptions and see if any of them fits?

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    Ace is not Fe-PoLR.

    Gravolez, you're probably not ILI either.

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    You are welcome to discuss my type in my thread
    I notice an interesting trend: having shallow arguments is frowned upon while having no arguments but just opinions is totally OK around here.

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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    You are welcome to discuss my type in my thread
    I notice an interesting trend: having shallow arguments is frowned upon while having no arguments but just opinions is totally OK around here.
    Aerorobyn and I have both talked to Ace through video chat. I think our opinions have some weight here.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    What you wrote was quite boring and with some parts I agree with other I don't but ...
    Right now, for example, I feel your supervision and it's pretty annoying because EIEs tend to talk without saying much constructive and helpful things like for example: what do you think the type of HandiAce is and why. And also why do you think my arguments for him being an ILI are wrong other than your argument that I am narrow minded and I have succumbed to shallow stereotypes
    Much of what I say is not going to be constructive, at least in the sense of making an immediate improvement on your current understanding, because this theory is not one in which all of one's conclusions can be fully explained. It just doesn't work like that. Can a photographer describe how they line up a perfect shot? No, but it winds up looking better than an amateur, because they have experience, which is something that's necessary with this theory if you want to get things right. It's not math, you can't just add up the pieces and say "Look, he stayed in more times than he went out this week, must be an introvert!" Psychology is not a hard science, you can't just add everything up and put a stamp on it and call it a day. At the end, you have to get inside the person and see what is really going on in their head, which is hard, but can be easier if you have the experience to draw parallels, and take the time to properly understand the implications of functional definitions, rather than just saying "Oh ok well introverts are shy; this guy is shy so he's an introvert, cool."

    While my advice might not be constructive from your perspective, you sitting there and generalizing about my type isn't exactly ingenuous either. We can either fling shit at each other, or talk shop; I'm fine with either way, so your behavior will dictate how I treat you.

    I would type HandiAce Ne ego, I'm not sure of his full type yet. My main reason would be that he reminds me in very drastic and obvious ways of other Ne egos I've known, including Galen (IEE-Fi) and an ex of mine, who was LII. Generally speaking I think he seems very sort of gentle and deliberate in the way he comes across compared to Alpha NTs, who are a bit less measured in their self-presentation and tend to be a bit on the professional/clean-cut-sounding side, like hkkmr, or the casually, light-heartedly direct side, like labcoat.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    You are welcome to discuss my type in my thread
    I notice an interesting trend: having shallow arguments is frowned upon while having no arguments but just opinions is totally OK around here.
    This is precisely because typing is a really imprecise thing, you can't always explain the reasons you type someone how you do because, like I said, a lot of it is just about having human exposure and learning to recognize the naturally occurring "types" of people, rather than segmenting their behaviors and putting labels on them.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Aerorobyn has not talked to me, yet he expresses an (incorrect) opinion on my type
    So basically I can see how the weight of your opinions is compromised, though I admit that you probably have more information than me on HandiAce.
    Opinions do not have weight to me, cause I care about arguments. But that does not mean you are wrong and I am right. I am trying to say that even if you say you have more information than I do I cannot accept your conclusions if you have not presented your information and reasoning.
    You are not obligated to do so of course in the same way as I am not obligated to accept your conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    This is precisely because typing is a really imprecise thing, you can't always explain the reasons you type someone how you do because, like I said, a lot of it is just about having human exposure and learning to recognize the naturally occurring "types" of people, rather than segmenting their behaviors and putting labels on them.
    That seems like your weak role Te saying: you can't really know anything for sure

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Then you're reading me wrong. There are plenty of people whose types I am sure of beyond doubt, which have been confirmed by plenty of others.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    One thing I WILL say: if you require hard and fast deductive evidence that can be laid out explicitly to the letter of something for you to be sure of it, you should give up now.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I do not expect that but I would be happy if you were not talking such generalizations which are of use to no one. So stop playing mentor on me I know what you are trying to say and it is really annoying to look down on me like that, though I guess that's what supervision is about

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Well I kind of have a tendency to play mentor with everyone, it's an asshole trait of mine that I wish would go away but is a bit ingrained in me from being the son of a priest. But I can say I understand your frustration because when people do it to me, it pisses the fuck out of me.

    I don't really know what more to say, to be honest, except that you seem relatively smart so it can't hurt for you to stick around and contribute, but do the rest of us a favor and try to keep an open mind and do as much reading on the subject as you can if you really want to understand this stuff.

    That still came out kind of patronizing which I'm sorry about but I don't really know what else to say.

    Also I think there is a chance you are SLI, probably Te subtype' you don't strike me as Ni dominant at all as they are usually very receptive to the idea of perceiving people en gestalt and do not tend to have the kind of hyper-literal approach which you seem to. We also seem to be shooting cross streams that aren't really intersecting.

    Please do not take this as an insult or fall under the assumption that Socionics sensors are "simple," "not intelligent," "have trouble with concepts," or are even marginally less capable of abstract thinking, creativity, or having new or original ideas; these are all assumptions fostered by simplistic, black-and-white interpretations of Carl Jung's writings that are simply wrong. There are many highly intelligent sensors who work in academia and professional science who beat the living pants out of their intuitive coworkers when it comes to conceptual understanding, because IQ and abstract intelligence has fuck-all to do with what TYPE of cognition you make use of, and everything to do with HOW WELL you use it (the "smartest man in the world," Christopher Langan, is very likely ISTj, and even if he is not, he is definitely not any intuitive type).

    Also please don't think I'm battle-typing you or judging you somehow; I have SLI friends in real life and I get along pretty damn well with a few SLIs here.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Yes, supervisor. I will pay attention to your wise words

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    I don't want to come across like an ass here so please don't take my post in a cruel way since a lot of people on here can sound downright mean and sociopathic. Anyway:

    You're using a common mbti fallacy. Many EP types are shy and unsure of themselves socially. Likewise there are IP types (usually thinkers IMO) who are confident socially and hang with a lot of people easily. Take Oz from Buffy as an example. He was chillax and talked to people with ease and confidence. I agree with Gilly that your eyes are Ne-ego.

    Also just work on trying to get out of yourself slowly, which you are doing now by asking for help. You are a classic introvert (different from socionics introvert) and you have your crazy wild selfish romantic dreams, but you don't want others to crush those dreams. An entj told me once that in order to get a friend, I had to be a friend. I was annoyed that she was supervising me, BUT SHE WAS RIGHT.

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    Yes, because the eyes show so much more than what the guy wrote about himself ... lol

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    Yes, because the eyes show so much more than what the guy wrote about himself ... lol
    What he wrote was trite and superficial with regards to determining his type. Being a shut-in says nothing except that he probably wasn't popular in school. I was the same way for most of my life until college.

    His behavior is more stereotypically introverted, but is anything but conclusive. The behavior could just as easily be due to trauma or some other fixation as psychological type. I've known Se and Fe primaries to whom much of what he says about himself could easily apply.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  35. #35
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Grav you have to recognize that Socionics is a theory about cognition and thought patterns, not behaviors. What he says about himself can tell us some things, but they are not boxes on a checklist.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Gilly, I recognize that you have kind of agnostic and mystic approach to socionics, which is not helpful to anyone.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Ep types would be the "introverted" extratim of Socionics, and this is described from the very begining.

    In Socionics E technically equals Extrotim not Extrovert because these are not identical in socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dual nature of man
    Jung's terms "extroverted" - "introverted", we have replaced the now-popular extrovert - introvert, but believe that the more appropriate term would be extrotim - introtim made by analogy with {krechmerovskimi schizotim terms - cyclotron}(would like a good translation of this part), because after the work of Eysenck, according to tests which extended the trend of every social person, call an extrovert, and each closed - introvert, these terms are ambiguous.


    The analogy for E/I in socionics is
    object/field from physics and introverted and extroverted are only correlated manifestations of behavior.

    Typing I have for Handi is IEE



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    IEE is a pretty solid typing for you. I've seen some of your previous threads and I remember typing you as such each time, even though I didn't post in them. Fun fact: I type Scout as IEE. The most I recall is your Te-polr thread, which seemed more Ni-ignoring than anything.

    Sorry for not addressing your points btw. I have little experience with the IP vs EP discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HandiAce View Post
    The reasons:

    - The roles I usually play with groups of friends is not so much to instigate, but to tag along and add anything I might find interesting along the way.
    - I don't maintain contacts with people. Contacts are only maintained based on the others' will to maintain contact with me or if they are providing something important enough to my own personal quests.
    - I am a melancholy type on another temperament which gears toward introversion, though it is not pure melancholy. More like Melancholy-Sanguine or Melancholy-Phlegmatic. The essential drive behind the melancholy is doing the right things for oneself. Self-esteem is not very high because of this.
    - I have had problems with inertia and getting myself to take action towards something. Without a clear reason to do something, I don't move, resulting in me not doing anything at all.
    - My parents have been disturbed by my lack of a will to go out with friends and take my social life to a higher level. I never felt the need, even though there is likely a fear of rejection playing into this.
    I wouldn't say that these belong solely to EP or IP; it's similar to a description I would give, and I am neither. Temperament is not always blatantly apparent; as I mentioned previously, I long felt that IJ did not fit me, but I have seen over time that it does fit very well in some ways. It may be better for you to focus more on the IM elements you value.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    This is the funniest goddamn thread I've ever read.
    Nice pic, tho.

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