View Poll Results: Are you self-dualized?

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  • Yes

    8 44.44%
  • No

    7 38.89%
  • I don't know

    7 38.89%
  • Maybe

    6 33.33%
  • Who cares?

    3 16.67%
  • Fuck you, Slater!

    5 27.78%
  • What does "self dualized" mean

    5 27.78%
  • Uh?

    5 27.78%
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Thread: Are you self-dualized?

  1. #1
    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Default Are you self-dualized?

    Have you developed your 5th and 6th functions?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    No. I've only developed my 6th, not my 5th.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  3. #3
    ■■■■■■ Radio's Avatar
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    self-dualize

  4. #4
    Gravolez's Avatar
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    I tend to self dualize a lot especially when I am alone with myself. I enjoy it and I believe developing one's self dualization skills is very important for one's happiness during the longer periods where one doesn't have a dual (or anything that is alive and with holes, really).

    I am not sure that getting better at using 5th and 6th function will replace a dual in any way. It would probably be helpful but I am not sure that self dualization is appropriate name.

  5. #5
    Ver's Avatar
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    I quess I've developed strong 5th function but I think I need to develop my 6th more.

  6. #6
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    Probably not even close. I read descriptions of Ne base and I'm not even sure what it is exactly or how they view opportunities differently. I think I'm stuck in a rut (more like various ruts), so my life sounds like the opposite. I'm pretty sure I've known one dual, and she was the type of person who saw potential in things I was more critical about (for example, my music skills).

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    ■■■■■■ Radio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravolez View Post
    I tend to self dualize a lot especially when I am alone with myself.
    oh my

  8. #8
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    I think once you know a dual well, even if you're not in constant contact, you can replicate the effect a bit. For example, when I'm stuck, I will often find myself thinking "what would SLE do...?" or say to me in this situation? And I can come up with it and make myself feel better. So I don't know that I'm self-dualizing really, but I'm trying to replicate the presence or the help of having a dual nearby. I'm not sure it actually makes my 5th/6th functions stronger, but it makes me feel better about things and gives me a kick when I need it. Something like that.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  9. #9
    lump's Avatar
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    te is magic. I don't know exactly how photosynthesis works but I'm really glad I can breathe.

  10. #10
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    You can't technically do that; those functions are subconscious. You can only limit your activities with regards to your base function as to "force" your mind to assume equality and equilibrium between the 1st and the 5th.

  11. #11
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Have you developed your 5th and 6th functions?
    These kinds of thoughts is one reason why I like using the dimensions for each element.

    My Si(5th) is possibly at around 1.25d. I doubt I could ever make it past 1.5d. I do a lot of self-soothing behaviors. I try to translate Ti attempts into something more visual (charts) so I can get a sense of the physical flow of it. And I'm learning what some of my body's signals mean, and learning by trial-and-error how to compensate/adjust. I doubt I'll ever do more than these three main contexts.

    My Te(6th) is possibly at around 2.5-2.75d. Doing things like creating flow charts and trying to figure out 'algorithms' of actions to take for certain processes I'm interested in. I'm not too good with it, but I'm learning to do this for quite a number of situations/contexts. It would be easier if I was doing this for contexts I had plenty of experience in. But noooo, I have to make things difficult on myself by trying to do this while learning something. (but it's because of the lack of available Te for it that I feel stuck having to provide it for myself!! Grrr)


    I would say that over the course of my life, I've spent more time trying to improve my Ti(4th). This started before I even learned of personality theories. It might seem like I have it up to 2.0d, but only because there are so many books and study options to help with this one. Mostly I resort to a roundabout way using Te w Fi/Si. I no longer try to improve this one beyond reminding myself to apply some of the rules/techniques I learned.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  12. #12
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    Probably not even close. I read descriptions of Ne base and I'm not even sure what it is exactly or how they view opportunities differently. I think I'm stuck in a rut (more like various ruts), so my life sounds like the opposite. I'm pretty sure I've known one dual, and she was the type of person who saw potential in things I was more critical about (for example, my music skills).
    Edward deBono has a number of books that I firmly believe can help build Ne. Particular his topics dealing with lateral thinking. It won't turn you into Ne base type, but if you find a couple of his techniques you like, they can help improve your Ne. If you want a specific book suggestion, let me know. I'd have to pull up boxes out of storage to get to the ones I have. But there is quite a lot available online.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  13. #13
    stray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    Edward deBono has a number of books that I firmly believe can help build Ne. Particular his topics dealing with lateral thinking. It won't turn you into Ne base type, but if you find a couple of his techniques you like, they can help improve your Ne. If you want a specific book suggestion, let me know. I'd have to pull up boxes out of storage to get to the ones I have. But there is quite a lot available online.
    Sure. What's a good introductory book?

  14. #14
    FoxOnStilts's Avatar
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    I don't know. I think I have a pretty good grasp on Fe, though a lot of times it's just faked and probably comes off as so, and a shaky but okay grasp on Si, but I also have a dual to dualize me. But said dual is 3,000 miles away. But I talk to said dual regularly.

    I'm probably just dualized. Not cool enough to do it by myself.

  15. #15
    Perpetual Confusion Machine PistolShrimp's Avatar
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    I don't need to self-dualize because my father is an SLE. I think growing up dualized is actually the reason I didn't start dating for so long; I knew what I wanted/needed, and the guys who asked me out weren't what I was looking for.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolShrimp View Post
    I don't need to self-dualize because my father is an SLE. I think growing up dualized is actually the reason I didn't start dating for so long; I knew what I wanted/needed, and the guys who asked me out weren't what I was looking for.
    you are so lucky. you have no idea.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    you are so lucky. you have no idea.
    I'm pretty sure my father is ESTj. We haven't been on friendly terms since I was 13.

    So, no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    you are so lucky. you have no idea.
    Before learning Socionics, I felt lucky to have a mentally and physically healthy parent I got along well with, as many of my friends have neurotic or otherwise unhealthy parents and have strained relationships with them. After learning about duality, I immediately realized just how lucky I am, because the odds of having a dual parent seem slim. And if I've typed my little brother correctly, I'm exceedingly lucky; I think he is LSI. Doesn't mean we're BFFs, but we're on the same page on most things.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    I'm pretty sure my father is ESTj. We haven't been on friendly terms since I was 13.

    So, no.
    Well I didn't mean that pistol is lucky only to have a dual father but that she also knows what she wants and is looking for, partly due to that relationship. I realize that not every dual relationship is perfect, yada yada. I had no dual in my life anywhere until I was 35 years old.

    I do feel lucky to have an identical brother. But, oh I lied! My brother's wife is my dual. And I met her when I was about 20 I guess. But she was his and I had limited interaction with her until later.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  20. #20
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    I know how to form cogent arguments, so there's Te. Not a fat slob yet though, so Si is gonna need some work.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    ...
    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-18-2012 at 01:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

  22. #22
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    I've wondered about intratype-duality versus intertype-duality.

  23. #23
    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    I think I have improved on my 5th function, Si. But...Te..no. Hah.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I think this can also work the other way around; I've grown up surrounded by betas and learned very early what I definitely did not want in a partner.. I could imagine NFs (maybe especially introverted ones?) usually have a pretty good idea what they look for in a partner compared to other types.
    I dunno. I must've been extra stupid. I dated an ESI and was in love. When we broke up, I thought he was the only person I'd ever feel that way about, so I gave up on finding something similar with anyone else. I saw my parents and how they interacted and I figured that was "normal" and that I just needed a good guy, nothing more. I think part of me wanted to believe, or needed to believe that anything better/more was an illusion, a fairytale.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  25. #25
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I think this can also work the other way around; I've grown up surrounded by betas and learned very early what I definitely did not want in a partner.. I could imagine NFs (maybe especially introverted ones?) usually have a pretty good idea what they look for in a partner compared to other types.
    This seems like more of an Sx-first related trait. I've always had a strong impression of what I like and want in people, and I can react very strongly towards those who either fulfill what I want or are completely opposite from it.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  26. #26
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    You can do the activities of your dual, but you can't be your dual because it's not natural. You have to force yourself to do the mental activity that your 5th function does that's why you get exhausted and "give that task over" to your supplementing partner. If I stopped interpreting static images and do dynamic observation of objects all day long, what comes naturally to my dual, I would start to have serious mental exhaustion.

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    Haikus
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    I think its innately narcisisstic to think you can dualize yourself. You weren't created narcissistically. You were created because two people banded together and made you. Even if your parents ended up hating each other for their own narcissistic reasons, there was enough of a connection/hit to produce something other than themselves.

    Find somebody you jive with on a very deep human level. Or self-destruct in a void. YES. It's healthy and fun to love ourselves. But we need other people. No matter how much "other people annoy you". Duality is a connection, a fit. It's something you can't psychoanalyze or do yourself. Because you can't give yourself touch and connection. It's about a relationship with another. Yes, first and foremost take care of yourself and love yourself and know yourself and talk to yourself. But do not be like an annoying narcissistic drag queen with a billion dollars and no love. CONNECT TO PEOPLE.

    love,
    sammy. =p

  28. #28
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    My 6th function is vastly more developed than my 5th. But i can go into 5th autopilot with the right momentum.

    My weakest function of all is my third. by a long shot. I figure it might have to do with a subtype preference of my base over my creative.

  29. #29
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    "In a well-integrated dual pair of partners so adopt each other's mannerisms and style of behavior that an external observer are virtually indistinguishable." (taken from the Gulenko 2 duality description on socionics.org)

    So a dualized person will appear from the outside very similar to his/her dual. I expect if you've experienced duality before, you can "dualize yourself" later without the dual around, by calling on what you learned and experienced with the dual.

  30. #30
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stray View Post
    Sure. What's a good introductory book?
    Surprisingly, I didn't have to do much digging to find those books. I was so smart to have labeled the boxes before storing them!! (of course, pencil seems to fade over time, and tape cracks and labels peel off...grr)

    The one book I would recommend, would be De Bono's Thinking Course (revised). It has a little bit of everything, and is written in fairly small chunks of methods with practices. After scanning through it this morning, I'm beginning to think that De Bono might be TeSi. The book definitely fits Delta. I think I'll keep it out to help me with more Te, as well as decision making ability (which I totally suck at). This book is filled with Ne +Te and even a section with Fi.

    Anyhoot, I decided to write up some summary exercises from the book, those primarily related to Ne (and a touch of Fi). This way, you can decide if it's something you'd even want to buy, or maybe just stick with these. Because we haven't talked before, I don't really know how to tailor examples of these to your specific situations, so it might all seem abstract, or very overwhelming. Feel free to PM me questions if you'd like.

    Sorry it took me this long to respond. Getting the notes was easy, formatting them all was the hardest part. I'm still not happy with it, but I'm considering it done.

    Don't try to do all of them at once, (if you even decide to try them at all). Just a little here and a little there. Particularly in areas of your life where you feel stuck at.

     

    Notes for Delta ST Self-Dualizing

    De Bono's tools are intended to direct your attention to beyond your normal pattern repertoire. The tools are meant to broaden your perceptions, and perhaps even help change them.

    Base Ne types tend to easily jump from pattern to pattern. They spend their lives building up a repertoire of patterns from which to draw from. These pattern repertoires allow them to be aware that for a given situation, there could be a few variations or patterns in effect.

    For someone trying to build up their Ne, I would recommend narrowing the practicings of the following tools into situations and contexts that are currently happening, and/or important to the person.
    * For 1D Ne (5th/4th), the goal is to build up a couple of rules to use within those contexts.
    * For 2D Ne (6th/3rd), the goal is to use the rules/practices so often that they feel almost natural within that narrow range of contexts/situations.

    (Please note: I ordered and phrased things with the intent of helping a Delta ST learn to 'dualize themself'. Some of these tools might be useful to other types who wish to increase their capacity of dealing with Ne+Fi info.)

    (Also note: When brainstorming lists, alternatives, etc, instead of judging each one while listing, think instead "Yes, and..." to help you keep that option AND add more, rather than editing something out.)


    I. The first goal is to learn to objectively explore subjects, situations, TPE, etc.
    So pick a topic/situation and give these a try, preferably in order. Oh, and feel free to ask a trusted friend to join you in this process. (Be sure to share and discuss the answers afterwards, and add them onto your list where you feel it would fit best.)
    PMI - Plus, Minus, Interesting
    1. List the good points about the topic/situation. Now list 5 more. Now list 3 more. Really push to look for them. Remember, you're trying to direct your attention to look beyond your normal patterns.
    2. List the bad points about it. Now list 5 more. Now list 3 more, as with the good points.
    3. Now list what you find interesting about the topic/situation. Perhaps fill in the blank: "It would be interesting if...." Listing Interesting points trains the mind to react to the interest inherent in an idea, and not just the judgment feelings about the idea. Such that for this topic/situation, you could respond with "I do not like your idea, but there are these interesting aspects to it..." Now add 5 more.
    Use: Use this tool regularly to help build the habit of looking beyond what you normally would look at. Especially use this tool when you have no doubt about a situation, and/or you have instantly formed a judgment.
    APC - Alternatives, Possibilties, Choices (Brainstorming)
    The purpose of brainstorming is to make deliberate effort to generate alternatives, possibilities, and alternative choices. As with other brainstorming methods, suspension of judgment is encouraged!!
    You can use APC in these types of situations.
    Explainations: What possible explanations might there be for [] behavior?
    Hypothesis: List alternative hypothesis of WHY something might be.
    Perception: How else can you look at a project?
    Problems: How might the problem defined? What other solutions might solve the problem? How might you approach a problem/solution?
    Review: Find an alternative way to simplify a process, increase effectiveness, and/or increase productivity.
    Design: How many ways can you think of to design something?
    Decision: Brainstorm alternatives to choices already presented. What other choices might be available?
    Course of Action: What courses of actions would open up if you did [action]? What CoAs might open up from that CoA?
    Forecasting: What possible future scenarios might occur?
    Also:*Negotiation,*Communication,*Opportunity Search,*Investments,*Planning,*Etc
    Get used to saying "Time to do an APC."
    There are some practicality considerations of using APC
    1) There is no way of telling that the first answer to a situation is the best one until at least some effort has been made to find other answers. So even if you are confident that one answer is THE answer, still brainstorm other possible answers. You may be surprised at what you find.
    2) Brainstorming may create a web of indecision. I see this as being more of a problem for NeFi than other Delta members. If you begin to run into issues regarding being unable to decide between the available choices you listed, then either figure out some guidelines for deciding (importance/values) or check out this book as it includes a few different ways of choosing.


    II. The second goal is to build up associations...linkages between the seemingly random. Initially you are deliberately doing this. But the more you deliberately do this, the more it will spontaneously occur as these new pathways strengthen.
    Object/Word Groupings
    Take 8 random objects/words: In how many ways could you divide them into 2 groups of 4 objects/words each? Now figure out 3 more ways to group/divide them.
    This tool helps you build up associations by both lumping things together, and splitting things up, based on some "random" criteria. You'll learn to look at objects/words/whatever and attend more to some of the attributes of it. It's these attributes that will help you create connections between the items/words/whatever.
    Situational Groupings
    1. List 8 random situations (what you have experience with, or what someone you know has experience with).
    2. Just like in the Object/Word Groupings tool, Figure out how many ways you can divide these situations into 2 groups of 4 situations each. Now figure out 3 more ways to group/divide them.
    Random Stimulation
    1. Pick a random object/word.
    2. What associations do you have with this object/word?
    3. How might this object/word be associated to a situation? an idea? a TPE? (thing, person, event)
    Note: This can easily be done when you're bored, at a check out lane, etc.


    III. The third goal towards Delta ST 'dualizing oneself' is to add in some Delta Fi. Here you will learn to make use of the patterns and skills obtained from above, and apply them in interactions dealing with Values and Points of Views (POV).

    Usually interactions dealing with Values/POVs wind up using the Clash Method, where the participants attack/defend ideas. The focus is on, Who's right? Not on, How can we resolve our disagreements?

    Instead, De Bono encourages what he calls "Exletics". This refers to pulling out of the situation what is of value -- no matter on which side it is to be found. This encourages the participants to deal with the "terrain" of the situation, not on One True Whatever. The added benefit of these tools is that looking at something through someone else's eyes will influence your own perceptions of the situation, as well as your own judgments about the situation.

    1. EBS - Examine Both Sides
    From the interaction, pull out what each POV is taking into consideration. What values, resources, experiences, obstacles, limitations, etc are they drawing from.
    This is the "terrain" over which the participants are interacting through.
    2. ADI - Agreement, Disagreement, Irrelevance
    a) Compare the 2(+) EBS terrain maps. Note the areas of agreements between them.
    b) Note the areas of disagreements.
    c) Note the areas of irrelevance. Set these aside as you will now be focusing on a) & b)
    d) Using what you all agree on, brainstorm ways in which you all can design a way around the disagreements.
    OPV - Other People's Views
    Values are the links between Events and basic Emotions.
    Value Bubbles (Understanding what's leading to a person's actions/decisions.)
    What are the actual circumstances surrounding a person? This is the objective data involved in the circumstance. Replace any Value-ladened terms with terms that are more neutral. (ex. "Joe murdered Bob." The term "murder" is a value laden word meaning "wrongful killing". Replace it with "killed"...Joe killed Bob.) Think news story.
    What are the person's perceptions of the situation? This is where the Values come in. Sarah, our person, thinks killing is wrong, and those who kill others are bad people. As such, she perceives Joe as being a bad person for killing Bob. AND, that Bob's death was wrongful. Basically, here you are getting their attractions/repulsions about the objective data involved in the circumstance.
    It helps if this is done in a mind map way. Place the person in the middle. Then the components of the circumstance leading off the middle. Then insert the values between the person and the circumstances. (maybe use ++ for very attracted to this component, + for attracted, 0 for neutral, - for repelled/upset by it, -- for very repelled/upset by it. OR maybe highlight red for repulsion and green for attraction.)
    Walk a Mile in Their Shoes
    1. For a given situation, Identify the people involved.
    2. Build a Vaue Bubble for each person. It really helps to expand this by including what the person finds interesting about a situation. (Their PMI.)
    3. Imagine what it might be like to have their values, and see the situation through the lens of those values. How would those values influence your decisions, your actions? How might they alter your perceptions of a situation?
    HV/LV - High Values / Low Values
    For a Value Bubble, determine which of the values are High Values. These are the ones that determine actions (what to do).
    For the same Value Bubble, determine which of the values are Low Values. These are the ones which have to be taken into account, but don't determine actions, just the flavor of the action (how to do it).
    Practicing HV/LV forces you to look carefully at the values involved in a situation. And may even help you decide what to do about a situation, and how to do it, in such a way as to consider the other people involved in that situation. (which is what a Delta NF would be offering to a Delta ST)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  31. #31
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Something in the name of this thread makes me want to pull a masturbation joke.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Something in the name of this thread makes me want to pull a masturbation joke.
    @Radio already did. Though he was more subtle about it.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    A very interesting point.

    Realizing doesn't mean that your appetite is fulfilled; realizing that I need Te as my DS doesn't mean i don't need my dual any more; because you realize you're hungary doesn't mean you no longer need food. This is because you need your dual to help you do those things that you don't in order for you to have the whole experience.

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    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    because you realize you're hungary doesn't mean you no longer need food.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Yes, I am.



    I'm hungary as well, Pa3s.

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Personally I think Hungarians shouldn't be fed.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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