An Excerpt on Ne

[Cuddly McFluffles]

"Dominant implies a philosophical attitude towards physical territory (). If someone or something forces such a person out of a certain territory (a job, a room, a business, etc.), he or she quickly switches to thinking of alternatives ("that's fine, I was thinking of leaving anyway"). If one has items stolen, one quickly forgets about them and finds one didn't need them much anyway. It's hard to attach a type to material possessions. But if someone attacks their "potential" (talents, opportunities, and any other "unrealized potential") or their intellectual territory (their ideas and vision), that's quite another story. Here types can and will put up a fight and will wear out nearly any opponent. Just as types are able to constantly keep track of opponents' level of will, energy, and power and attack them when they are weak, types are able to constantly keep track of opponents' mental state and thought organization and attack them mentally when their thought processes are disorganized (this applies to confrontational situations)."

(Taken from here.)

Thoughts on this?

[Radio]

idk

[anndelise]

If someone or something forces such a person out of a certain territory (a job, a room, a business, etc.), he or she quickly switches to thinking of alternatives ("that's fine, I was thinking of leaving anyway").

The example sounds to me like rationalizing and ego-saving.
i would think that thinking of alternatives would be more like thinking of the different things they can do now, that they couldn't do while in that particular territory.

If one has items stolen, one quickly forgets about them and finds one didn't need them much anyway.

I think this is dependent on what the item was.
One can usually either find an improved replacement for the item...or learn to adapt without it.

It's hard to attach a type to material possessions.

Again, I think this would be dependent on a number of things.
A person who travels alot would be less inclined to collecting and transporting material possessions. But a person who's settled might be more inclined to collect a bunch of items related to some perceived potential. Jumping from hobby to hobby can result in an accumulation of clutter. Having the idea that...ooh, I can... Or..maybe we could... Etc can really leave a mess behind.

Here types can and will put up a fight and will wear out nearly any opponent.

Personally, and despite my arguments with Maritsa, I don't agree with that. Perhaps more true of NeTi than NeFi. Personally, I can only maintain the focus for so long before getting sidetracked by something more interesting.

types are able to constantly keep track of opponents' mental state and thought organization and attack them mentally when their thought processes are disorganized (this applies to confrontational situations).

again, I see this as probably less applicable to NeFi. It,s not like their known for having/displaying "organized thought processes". NeFi also have to deal with their own focusing and distractability issues, as well as fluctuations in energy levels.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I don't see how this is Ne-specific. I think the same could be said for any intuitive dominant type.

This relates back to what I said about sensors appearing more humane. We intuitors are downright sociopathic in our heads for how brutal we fight for an ideal principal. Meanwhile the poor ESFj just wants us to all hug each other while she buys us our veggie subways from subway, not understanding what the hoopla is all about.

(I love u esfj mommy)

When I find a sensor I like, I want to do anything I can to protect them against the political manipulation in this world. They are sensor types so they don't understand the depth or complexity of how they are being mind controlled in MANY situations. It is my duty to fight off predators for them.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I found it especially interesting because assertiveness and aggression tend to be labeled ; according to this, it would seem that has its own brand of assertiveness.

[anndelise]

I found it especially interesting because assertiveness and aggression tend to be labeled ; according to this, it would seem that has its own brand of assertiveness.

Don,t forget that leading Ne types have Se role. So Se might show up in certain contexts, but it'd be short lived.

[ashlesha]

i have seen an SLE and an IEE fighting equally for ideas at work. it couldn't be completely separated, i don't think, because looking at the problem the right way = money. i can't think of a situation in which "ideas" and "territories" in this context would ever be completely different things. examples?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I never understood that assumption. How can a static physical object be 'aggressive.' It's more protective than anything else. is really the aggressive one, because it's rawly about physical external objects in motion. How the world just moves quickly no matter what our internal impressions of it.

I've had a lot of arguments about people over this. They then will say 'lol that's not what Te means' or something... but that's what the theory says it means. I think that's pretty clear. The field functions are a bit harder to understand because they are based upon relationships but still it means what it says it means. To me anyway.

And oh btw, that is also where the stereotype of us IEIs being "emo" and "weak" come from, even though it's not really 100% true it's based upon a truth, because an INFp is essentially scared of an objectivity, not a subjectivity.

[Radio]

I don't think Se is aggressive by default, I don't think ESFps are any more aggressive than ENFps. Direct, yes. Assertive only in the sense that they don't waste time on unlikely possibilities or potential, possibilities that an ENFp might pursue thoroughly and individually and come to the same conclusion in a round-about bending-your-arm-backwards-around-your-head-to-reach-your-nose kind of way. Being forceful without consideration of the others' feelings is a T thing and what is often attributed to Se is beta-centric Ti. I blame Rick for this entirely.

I think being Ne-ego gives one more confidence in N-related things (such as theories, concepts and abstracts that don't relate to direct/immediate physical experience or sometimes even empirical evidence), overarching concepts relating to the future of humanity and progression of ethics in society or whatever, and likely, a propensity towards defending these concepts (aggressively) in the face of opposition. Likewise being Se-ego gives one more confidence when dealing with things that can be directly observed, experienced, felt, etc. and a propensity towards defending what seems the most immediately apparent/obvious.

[anndelise]

I never understood that assumption. How can a static physical object be 'aggressive.'

The way I've interpreted it, Se is dealing with obtaining information from static objects by using one's senses.
and to do that, you wind up having to move the object around to figure out what it,s attributes are.
You push, pull, thump, twist, turn, bounce, hit, kick, stroke, etc the object...or parts of the object...to get a fuller sense of what that object can be used for...or what it's attributes are.

When that object is a person that you are pushing, pulling, twisting, turning, thumping, kicking, etc...in your efforts to find out what they can/will do?..what their physical attributes are, ...the person on the receiving end of all that will most likely view you as being "aggressive".

[golden]

I found it especially interesting because assertiveness and aggression tend to be labeled ; according to this, it would seem that has its own brand of assertiveness.

I have noted many times that some of the people I find most assertive (or even plain aggressive) irl are imo Ne ego.

I also do not think that Se is necessarily about being aggressive, but that Se can go in that direction.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I don't know. Jeesh. That sounds like I enjoy somebody invading my boundaries though.

I guess I do want to PHYSICALLY be thrusted upon. (Not mentally or psychologically though - yuck). I remember having sex with that SLE dude, and how he just made all the first moves. It was natural and relaxing as well as exciting/invigorating. However I got annoyed with him because we didn't really connect emotionally. It fit socionically but there was still too much missing.

when I was younger I liked when my male friends wanted to wrestle with me. (not in a gay way) I just enjoyed the physical contact , it made me feel human and close to them. When somebody can't come down to earth in that sense, it very much annoys me.

[anndelise]

I will admit that while I don't have many set values, when one of those gets crossed too often, I will become aggressive.

And yes, my Ne will influence which values set, and to what degree they'll set.
but it,s not Ne that makes me aggressive/assertive..it,s the crossing of my personal values that does. Which means that I become assertive when feeling the need to protect others, or myself from physical/psychological harm from another person...but ideas come and go...and with Ti polr, I already have doubts as to the idea's validity.

I can see NeTi being more assertive/aggressive long term regarding their ideas. Particularly the whole wearing the other person out, and waiting for disorganization in the other person,s mind.

Edited to add: sorry BnD, this post wasnt in response to what you wrote above. The timing was off.

[ashlesha]

The way I've interpreted it, Se is dealing with obtaining information from static objects by using one's senses.
and to do that, you wind up having to move the object around to figure out what it,s attributes are.
You push, pull, thump, twist, turn, bounce, hit, kick, stroke, etc the object...or parts of the object...to get a fuller sense of what that object can be used for...or what it's attributes are.

When that object is a person that you are pushing, pulling, twisting, turning, thumping, kicking, etc...in your efforts to find out what they can/will do?..what their physical attributes are, ...the person on the receiving end of all that will most likely view you as being "aggressive".

does Ne do anything similar to gauge someones potential?

[anndelise]

For deltans...it,s poking and prodding the mind...as in asking a ton of personal questions.
For alphans...i would think it's poking and prodding at a theory or such. Alpha nts are pretty darned good at taking an opposing side of a debate/theory and argue for it, even if they dont believe it.

[Park]

possibilities that an ENFp might pursue thoroughly and individually and come to the same conclusion in a round-about bending-your-arm-backwards-around-your-head-to-reach-your-nose kind of way.

[ashlesha]

For deltans...it,s poking and prodding the mind...as in asking a ton of personal questions.
For alphans...i would think it's poking and prodding at a theory or such. Alpha nts are pretty darned good at taking an opposing side of a debate/theory and argue for it, even if they dont believe it.

so for Se do you literally mean poking and prodding the body? sorry if I'm being pedantic.

my way of prodding is more along the lines of sharing things about myself or saying something that might be uncomfortable and seeing the persons reaction. I thought about this when you talked about Se but its also about the mind.

[anndelise]

so for Se do you literally mean poking and prodding the body? sorry if I'm being pedantic.

my way of prodding is more along the lines of sharing things about myself or saying something that might be uncomfortable and seeing the persons reaction. I thought about this when you talked about Se but its also about the mind.

That would make sense, lungs.
like...when checking to see how fast a car can go, pushing on the gas isn't the same thing as getting the hands into the engine to see what it does. But pushing on the gas gives a pretty clear idea of the physical attributes of the car.

Also, considering FiSe have Ni hidden agenda, and it makes more sense.
It's likely that your trying to get a reaction from someone as a directed effort (related to Ni hidden agenda).

While an ENFps' wouldn't be looking to get a reaction (unless trying to make a point), but would have more random and...how did Radio put it??..."round-about bending-your-arm-backwards-around-your-head-to-reach-your-nose kind of way" questions. (i liked that description, heh)

[ashlesha]

yeah like if I'm getting to know someone I feel like the immediate reactions they give off are more reliable sources than what they say about themselves in response to questions. its not really like what's implied with "getting reactions" though because I'm usually more impressed with lack of reaction lol.

I get really confused with the perception elements but your descriptions help, ty.