ESFp, Gamma, and being yourself

[Creepy-female]

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[Radio]

whatev, maybe you're not boring to your home quadra, Deltas. But you're boring to me.

*ouch*

[Absurd]

No worries, dolphin, you're boring to me as well.

[fen]

[Gilly]

I think the society we live in, as well as our upbringing and, in your particular case, the very conflict between different identities and ways of thinking, are all going to make things fuzzy, and I think your uncertainty has a lot to do with these discrepancies. I am another perfect example of this phenomenon, what with being a self-hating Beta on account of being raised by Deltas, and actually my family is similar to yours although I occupy your brothers position and my sister is an Alpha (SEI). I think she definitely felt this polarity in our family as well, and I find it no surprise that she married the most full-on Alpha I have ever encountered: ESE-Fe with a whole 6-person family full of Alphas with the exception of one very lighthearted IEI-Fe.

Personally I think she went about it in the wrong way. I think she should have taken longer to find her own full personal identity, but she is an E9 and very susceptible to absorbing the views of others, but I guess you are a 6 so there is probably a similar vulnerability which I've observed in all 3 object-attachment types. Thats not to say I think she's living her life wrong or something, but it's not what I would do. I think people in our position of having been around very clearly quadra-delineated families really need to learn how do themselves #1 and take the time for two things: one, lots of introspection to sort out those foggy messes of thoughts and decide which imperatives and values really apply to you. Only you can do that for yourself, and I think its a never ending process, a battle that we will always be fighting with ourselves because its already in us. But there is a flip side, you can't let that search consume you, sometimes you just have to live.

The second thing is yo socialize yourself like hell. And I don't just mean glomming on to a new group or anything like that. Go out on your own, make friend-for-a-nights or crew-for-a-nights. See all the people there are to see, take as much superficial input as possible just to experience people and how they think and live their lives, and once you've got a good sized deck of cards, choose your own damn hand instead of spending your life wondering what you're going to draw next.

[Absurd]

And it makes me question myself. ESFp thought patterns seem best fit for me. But it makes me wonder where I fit within the spectrum. Some ESFps are morbid, inverted motherfuckers. Having to work with anxiety and depression and natural tendencies towards thoughtfulness to the point of neurosis all my life, I find the stereotypical "go getter" outlook to be somewhat attractive. I did become somewhat more outgoing on antidepressants. So I tend to wonder if my mental health issues inhibit the stereotypical expression of my type, so to speak.

Their duals appreciate this morbidity?

Anyway, as long it fits you as in the way you are in real life, not as in the way you want to be, then there's not much if anything to question, although being under the influence of drugs may produce some sort of distorted self-image but everyone knows that. And of course, any kind of drug is going to alter your personality temporarily. Prolonged intake may or may not produce damage. Irreversible damage.

When it is best fit, it is best fit, though.

[aixelsyd]

 

First off, it's good to be happy when you are happy, but I also think being a stereotypical SEE is severely overrated. It's one thing if it fits the individual, but many SEEs are not bottles of joy. I do know SEEs who are ever joking and are ever fun and playful and practically shit out sunshine and good times, and they are great people and I would not want them to change that.

But there are many SEEs who are more interested in "intellectual" stuff. I know one SEE, a fun and nerdy guy at that, who was studying computer programming and played Yugioh cards with his NT friends in his free time at the college cafe. Another, who I admit thought was ILI at first, is a friendly girl who is both pretty and tomboyish, who is also training to be a computer repairman. Another is/was studying something with biology and is/was the type to go from being fake happy to being a tortured soul and just angsting (who was also the type who would day dream and be super shy and anxious until someone pulled him out of that shell).

The point is there are people of all types. This should be obvious with the diversity seen over the forum of the different IEIs and how they come off, same with SLEs, IEEs, and so on. Why should SEEs be any different? I actually feel like SEEs are one of the least understood types on this forum and perhaps even IRL because they can come off so strongly one way but also be another way, too, that they don't always show to the world. But SEEs are just as liable to come off differently from each other for many reasons. There's no standard SEE or standard type.

I mean, looking at ILIs alone and remembering the stereotypes in the past that ILIs were all robotic types who had no capacity to express warm feelings or to express fun or kindness. And the fact is I know ILIs who are sweet and sensitive and like to cuddle with those they trust, who are brash and relish the energy friends provide, and who defy whatever stereotype that was once held, at least over the forum. So why would it be different for any other type that it's a "bad" thing to be different?

To be honest, dolphin, when I saw this thread in recent threads, I was like "I hope this isn't one of the old threads I made when I was aixelsyd and going through that type change that I got immense flack for" but was pleased it wasn't. In any case, there is no reason for you to change except for where it makes you a more fulfilled person. I suppose we can try to be more like this or like that but I think the more you just be yourself and just try to deal with whatever bothers you and to learn from it and let it do its work in you and your life, I think that might be worth so much more than just trying to imitate something or someone.

In fact, I have an ILI friend who I did introduce socionics to and she was typically fun and pleasant but would sometimes get into this snarky mode. A part of me wondered if she was just trying to be more "ILI" in the typical way but I honestly was hurt a few times by her out of character, seeming, snarky comments. It felt forced and not really herself, but I could be wrong, too. It's just seeing someone pretend, especially over a theory, grosses me out. So having said ALL of this, I think you are fine as you are, dolphin, and there's no reason to compare yourself, if that is what this is about (as I understand it) because I, personally, have no doubts on your type authenticity. You are who you are, perceived weaknesses and strengths. So I guess that means you are one of us and have something unique to express and to offer to yourself and to the world.

And depression, anxiety, whatever, is a bitch, but sometimes knowing your own suffering and sorrow adds another level to your person, as well. I've actually had a few SEEs who have understood that I do have a certain layer to myself that probes and seeks to connect to those human emotions and to explore the less perky parts of being human. And even though others didn't really perceive it, they did. They understood. They were capable of it, too, just didn't develop the same way I did.

I, myself, don't think I will ever be a bright ray of sunshine and will always be somewhat remote and brooding, but it's just a part of who I am, regardless of type. I would never want to change that and I hope others wouldn't, either. And though you say what you say about yourself, I can see a sweet and beautiful person who can be subdued and still involved with others and in the situation.

I mean, maybe you feel things about you come off as morbid or less than cheerful, but if you can function in society and with people and so forth, is it really a thing to worry about? Being able to relate to such feelings can always help you to connect with those who feel similarly. Sometimes being able to share certain attributes like that can help validate others and help them heal and make those traits work for them and society instead of saying to forget worries and put on a happy face.

[Pa3s]

Deltas are comfortable emotionally. They're also consistently "boring". And I don't mean it as an insult. [...]

I feel like a yo-yo. Deltas are solid, consistent. They're supportive emotionally, even if they don't exactly get..the...other side of me.

I know that there are (definitely favourable) traits don't have and I can't give people some things they may expect to get in a friendship or relationship. That could be adventure and excitement. Personality itself is defined by the presence and the lack of traits, strong points and weaknesses. People just can't have it all. And since I have to "choose" how I am, I'll always make the best of it and take the lesser evil in my eyes, which might be the perceived boringness in this case.

A balanced character is important, but I'd always prefer a boring and honest partner to an exciting cheater.

[Pa3s]

Your loss.

I wasn't offended, I just wanted to describe my view of the issue. I also think this applies to everyone, regardless of quadra. You'll always trade characteristics you don't see as important for those which are fundamental for your self-image.

EDIT: No need to delete things.

[Pa3s]

I don't really understand why you react this way. It's not like I was writing a hateful post because I think your judgement is wrong. Maybe you are misinterpreting what you're reading.

[Park]

I don't really understand why you react this way.

Because she's on her period. Duh?

[Pa3s]

The "Your loss" I wrote in my post before was meant ironically. Maybe it came off as reacting mildly insulted, but I can assure you that I was not at all offended. I can see why you migth feel like this, though, since your op apparently "inspired" fenryrr to start another thread, dedicated to that subject. But I'm pretty sure she just felt the need to discuss it because of her curiosity, to explore the stereotype and not because she was offended.

[Radio]

fwiw i get what you meant by "boring", it's sort of how i get intellectual dullness from alphas but no one would use the term "dull" to describe the alpha quadra. my earlier remark was tongue-in-cheek and i didn't seriously take offense to it.

[Absurd]

[ashlesha]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Park]

I know that there are (definitely favourable) traits don't have and I can't give people some things they may expect to get in a friendship or relationship. That could be adventure and excitement.

This is very interesting.

[mfckr]

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[aixelsyd]

Not sure if I understood it, but I know the OP was about being torn between Beta and Delta in part, but I took it more as confusion of one's own standing, being caught in the middle but never belonging to the right or the left than a critique on either quadra. I thought this was about belonging and being true to oneself, belonging despite not being the stereotype. *shrug*

[Absurd]

And guys, lighten up about the 'boring' descriptor. You're derailing the thread with complaints over it.

I think I agree, but who is complaining?

[force my hand]

Hey dolphin, what you say about Delta, etc. may be true, but I'm more interested in something else.

In the OP you frame this struggle in the context of your parents and brother, where the former represents Delta and the latter, Beta. This may be important because it follows a more general conflict between youth and age, in terms of experience, risk tolerance, idealism, resignation, and likely an infinite number of other qualities.

Since a) our parents want what is 'good' for us, but not necessarily what is 'best' for us, and b) people tend to identify more with their peer group (i.e. in this case, your brother), I would recommend asking yourself if you've managed to isolate that influence and approach your typing efforts as independently as possible.

If so, then no harm no foul, and good luck. If not, then a remedy that worked for me, at least, is to continue getting out there in the world and gain new life experience (as I believe someone else mentioned above).

[willekeurig]

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[mfckr]

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[Galen]

This is roughly how I feel between Alphas + Gammas too. The shared rational IEs allow me to be highly in sync with Gammas on an emotional and intellectual level, but there's still something about how they perceive the world that trips me up every now and again; it's as if I can't work with how they respond to what I say, so it becomes difficult to play off of their dialogue without changing the subject to some extent. With Alphas it's much easier for me to just pal around and shoot the shit, but there's always going to be that bit of dissonance in terms of how we understand the world cognitively. While I feel ultimately more fulfilled with that intellectual connection via Gammas as opposed to just shooting the shit with Alphas, I find that both are still necessary.

In that sense, "being yourself" is very much a matter of being around people who share the same intellectual/emotional orientation as well as just being able to act instinctively around each other without questioning each other's motives. Find more gammas, lol.

[Galen]

(And I'm also expecting a couple bone dry quips from the Delta camp in response.)

penis fuck butt poop

[Gilly]

I think I may have a clue of what you're talking about, being a child of beta parents myself. I don't have any good advices tho. I've always been torn between the values of these two quadras, and will probably always appreciate certain beta-related things a lot more than the average delta would. I don't really feel at home in either quadra completely, it's like there's always something missing and too much of something else. I "value" Fi in the socionics sense, but all my family members are Fe valuers so I've learned to despise it and find it both "too easy" and weird to communicate with Fi valuers now that I've gotten to know a few.. I can kind of like it, but at the same time it feels like there's something wrong with them, as if "normal" people weren't supposed to prefer Fi/Te over Ti/Fe.

A lot of what Gilly said feels reasonable to me, but "choosing your own hand" it's a lot easier said than done.

It's a lot easier done, than suffering the consequences of not learning to.

[Kim]

My two closest friends are SEE-Fi and I am also good friends with an SEE-Se and all of them are at their best and healthiest when their attention is directed at their surroundings, when they go out into the world, meet people, interact. As soon as they introspect and turn introverted for too long, they get very depressed (which is a vicious cycle of course). It seems to me as if SEEs need the stimulation of the outside world and other people to thrive. My friends are happy and content when they are among people they trust or who they find interesting. They all told me that the internet is a double-edged sword for them because it seems as if they get the human contact they need, but in the end what they REALLY need is the "human touch" of face-to-face interaction. I am sure they would only describe themselves as "morbid, inverted motherfuckers" in a depressed state.

Fwiw, the SEE-Fi friends and I love to hang out precisely because of the high comfort level. We can tell each other anything and everything and have a lot of fun. It's extremely therapeutic for us to spend time together, so perhaps you should find yourself a real life (!) IEE friend.

[willekeurig]

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[JWC3]

I don't feel torn at all between Beta and Delta, They're just different people who I like for different reasons and I really don't feel any inner turmoil about the differences between them. Alphas get me though. On the one hand Alphas are wonderful people who I can really have a good time with generally plus I love the shit out of some alpha humor, on the other hand my phone is all the way across the room...

[Beautiful sky]

Dolphin, do you think if there are people out there who are considering a type and who are SEE might read what you write would be able to identify with you and change their mind or decide on being SEE?

[Gilly]

Well, wiser probably, but I'm not so sure about easier. Not to me at least.

Until you feel the full consequences.

For me, at least, there's nothing harder than feeling like I'm not in control of my own life, and living by others' expectations qualifies as such.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Quadras, lol.

[Absurd]

Dolphin, do you think if there are people out there who are considering a type and who are SEE might read what you write would be able to identify with you and change their mind or decide on being SEE?

Do you consider a type and are EII, and after reading that changed your type to EII?

[Gravolez]

@dolphin
I think it would be more correct to say that Alpha is as much between Beta and Delta as is Gamma, but I see what you are trying to say.
And when it comes to finding your type I think that, while quadras and dichotomies in general (because quadras are just groups based on several common dichotomies) can be used as a guideline, you should also try and isolate/identify/ your leading and vulnerable funcions (or information elements ... I am not sure what is the correct way to say that).

I am aware of course that not all people are able to look into themselves and scrutinize how they function. Some types have hard time doing that but some xNTx that is interested in socionics and knows you IRL should be able to help you out.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Well, their isnt a hierarchy. It's a circle with various, theoretical pathways going in both directions/continuums.

[woofwoofl]

Growing up sucked ass. Only child, so there was one of me and two of them, and they were both a lot bigger. School had me overpowered like that too, but less and less as time went on; my body got bigger, I got more charisma, and more of the world felt like my own at long last.

One of my proudest moments ever was on the school bus, when some shitheads started throwing stuff at the front of the bus. I had enough of it, as did the people around me, and I knew they were nice and pissed. Right where I needed them to be. I brought in a massive ass bag of pea gravels and huge gravels with last names written in blood red on them, and we hurled them relentlessly and mercilessly at the back of the bus. You should have been there to see the people in the back; their eyes getting huge, their bodies jittering, their speech faltering, their nervous ducking behind seats... absolutely beautiful...

Daycare stuff, same deal. I always had this urge to rally a shit ton of people and, if nothing else, cause disruption for its own sake. I always knew something good would come of it...

In school? I beat crash cymbals together for the hell of it, made out with just about any girl that would have me, simultaneously vandalized and improved school posters (face it, that drawing of the puppy was worthless until I showed up with the Sharpie and drew a massive turd coming out of its ass), and learned all that I could outside the curriculum. I had a legion of my own there too, and they were amazing!

I know if I ever feel like shit, I can fix that by getting new clothes, new hairstyle, making myself look more amazing, doing something on the drums people can connect with; anything that rules and is acknowledged by people and all. Problem is that if I feel like shit, I don't want to go around anyone else because I think it'll be a burden to them and that I'll look bad, and that they'll get inevitably sick of my shit, so I'm left by myself then for better or worse...

I just have two weeks until all of my debt is paid off. I have just two weeks after that until I get the bike parts I need. I'm back together with an amazing musician, and we're gonna push the momentum more and more. This year's gonna rule...

[jet city woman]

I don't want to go around anyone else because I think it'll be a burden to them and that I'll look bad, and that they'll get inevitably sick of my shit, so I'm left by myself then for better or worse...

I used to feel this way too. And then I realized that with all the "stupid", "insane" people out there, how could I think my presence was such a bad thing lol.....
I personally think it's crazy that people wouldn't want you around. You are always cheerful, uplifting, and energetic, and fun to be around when you are on the site.
One day you will realize that you possess great qualities.

[uniden]

It's interesting how much of the advice here involves interacting with a number of new people even though that'll inevitably mean more exposure to Betas and Deltas. Would a wider understanding of that dichotomy bring about a solid sense of self out of the limbo? Or is there something remaining to be said about how experiencing more breadth will anchor your self-concept. Heh, reading on I see that Galen has perhaps answered that with getting involved with more Gammas. But... hmm... maybe there still remains something to be said.

When I was grasping for my identity, trying to pin something down in the foggy mess, the two people who helped me were not Delta. Rather, Beta and Gamma. Talking to them... is different. I felt drawn in, and the connection I felt to their world that they shared to me lead to an awakening of my inner life. I felt that if I really wanted to live, that is the place I need to be. At that depth, digging through trying to find our way, trying to find our diamonds.

hmm, dolphin, I'm sure having Gammas in your life who are at your level can only help. Being with people whom you don't have to measure your actions with and who get where you're coming from. I suspect there’s a certain depth of connection only possible with another Gamma. But, how much control do we have for when someone like that enters our life? Maybe there’s something that can be done now that’ll help, no matter the quadra or whatever.

So, right, of course, as people here have been saying, there are things out there in the world to experience. Things you'll resonate with, that'll draw you in, inspire growth. What I'm thinking is, as you experience other things, other people, other quadras, as you acquaint yourself to the world, draw lines. Make boundaries. Out there will stuff that just doesn't fit quite right. Paths that may be tantalizing at first but need to be closed off. Things that aren't quite right to you, where you want to go, what you want to be. Cut those off completely or limit their access to you such that only the parts that jive with you can get in. And so the hope is, as these lines get drawn, they'll make an outline of who you are. Something clear and solid. Perhaps some of these lines will cross through what can be identified as Beta. Perhaps others a little Delta. Whatever the case, I hope it would be something you can clearly see as yourself.

I guess what I'm basically trying to say here is that I think saying No instead of Yes may be more helpful for where you are at right now.

[willekeurig]

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[Gilly]

It's interesting how much of the advice here involves interacting with a number of new people even though that'll inevitably mean more exposure to Betas and Deltas.

...and Gammas and Alphas.

More people is more people. In as explicit terms as possible: exposure gives you a better idea of what you are by allowing you to more accurately differentiate yourself from others. It's not everything, but she's clearly done more than she needs on the introspection front, so she should try the other end of the spectrum, because the truth is usually somewhere in between the two.

[uniden]

...and Gammas and Alphas.

More people is more people. In as explicit terms as possible: exposure gives you a better idea of what you are by allowing you to more accurately differentiate yourself from others. It's not everything, but she's clearly done more than she needs on the introspection front, so she should try the other end of the spectrum, because the truth is usually somewhere in between the two.

I understand the idea. Didn't mean that disparagingly. Just found those two points together interesting. Maybe I shouldn't have commented on that.