View Poll Results: What type was George Washington?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    0 0%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    0 0%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    0 0%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    0 0%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    0 0%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    2 50.00%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    2 50.00%
  • EII (INFj)

    0 0%
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Thread: George Washington

  1. #1

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    Default George Washington

    (quote)

    His mind was great and powerful, without being of the very first order; his penetration strong, though not so acute as that of a Newton, Bacon, or Locke; and as far as he saw, no judgment was ever sounder. It was slow in operation, being little aided by invention or imagination, but sure in conclusion. Hence the common remark of his officers, of the advantage he derived from councils of war, where hearing all suggestions, he selected whatever was best; and certainly no general ever planned his battle more judiciously. But if deranged during the course of the action, if any member of his plan was dislocated by sudden circumstances, he was slow in readjustment. The consequence was that he often failed in the field, and rarely against an enemy in station, as at Boston and York. He was incapable of fear, meeting personal dangers with the calmest unconcern. Perhaps the strongest feature in his character was prudence, never acting until every circumstance, every consideration, was maturely weighed; refraining if he saw a doubt, but, when once decided, going through with his purpose, whatever obstacles opposed. His integrity was most pure, his justice the most inflexible I have ever known, no motives of interest or consanguinity, of friendship or hatred being able to bias his decision. He was, indeed, in every sense of the words, a wise, a good, and a great man. His temper was naturally high toned; but reflection and resolution had obtained a firm and habitual ascendency over it. If ever, however, it broke its bonds, he was most tremendous in his wrath. In his expenses he was honorable, but exact; liberal in contributions to whatever promised utility; but frowning and unyielding on all visionary projects and all unworthy calls on his charity. His heart was not warm in its affections; but he exactly calculated every man's value, and gave him a solid esteem proportioned to it. His person, you know, was fine, his stature exactly what one would wish, his deportment easy, erect and noble; the best horseman of his age, and the most graceful figure that could be seen on horseback. Although in the circle of his friends, where he might be unreserved with safety, he took a free share in conversation, his colloquial talents were not above mediocrity, possessing neither copiousness of ideas, nor fluency of words. In public, when called on for a sudden opinion, he was unready, short and embarrassed. Yet he wrote readily, rather diffusely, in an easy and correct style. This he had acquired by conversation with the world, for his education was merely reading, writing, and common arithmetic, to which he added surveying at a later day. His time was employed in action chiefly, reading little, and that only in agriculture and English history. His correspondence became necessarily extensive, and, with journalizing his agricultural proceedings, occupied most of his leisure hours within doors. On the whole, his character was, in its mass, perfect, in nothing bad, in few points indifferent; and it may truly be said, that never did nature and fortune combine more perfectly to make a man great, and to place him in the same constellation with whatever worthies have merited from man an everlasting remembrance. For his was the singular destiny and merit, of leading the armies of his country successfully through an arduous war, for the establishment of its independence; of conducting its councils through the birth of a government, new in its forms and principles, until it had settled down into a quiet and orderly train; and of scrupulously obeying the laws through the whole of his career, civil and military, of which the history of the world furnishes no other example.









    Last edited by silke; 07-13-2014 at 01:12 PM. Reason: updated links
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  2. #2
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    ExTj
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    ISFj.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    He seems like a pretty strong ESTJ to me- except for a couple of things. These two parts don't make sense;

    His temper was naturally high toned; but reflection and resolution had obtained a firm and habitual ascendency over it.
    Although in the circle of his friends, where he might be unreserved with safety, he took a free share in conversation, his colloquial talents were not above mediocrity, possessing neither copiousness of ideas, nor fluency of words. In public, when called on for a sudden opinion, he was unready, short and embarrassed. Yet he wrote readily, rather diffusely, in an easy and correct style.
    These would make him sound more like an Introvert. Especially the second one... are not ExxJs suppossed to be good with words, and more verbally-quick? Would they have trouble being called upon to speak? Or maybe I'm reading into it wrong, and it just has to do with Fe-related problems (no emotional responses, etc...)?

    But other than that, I would be sure this guy is ESTJ (and a pretty famous one at that).
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    He seems like a pretty strong ESTJ to me- except for a couple of things. These two parts don't make sense;

    His temper was naturally high toned; but reflection and resolution had obtained a firm and habitual ascendency over it.
    If he is an ESTJ...not all ESTJ's lash out ALL the time over the little things like some tend to do and like most would say ESTJ's do.
    I've come to a point where I can be a pretty calm person and not get hot tempered over the little stuff like some do. It definitely was something I've learned over the years.

    and other than this:
    In public, when called on for a sudden opinion, he was unready, short and embarrassed
    I'd say he's a definite ESTJ.

    It sounds like George Washington just from what I've read here?

  6. #6
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I wouldn't completely count ISTp out.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  7. #7
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    I know one ESTj with a horrible temper and one that is more passive aggressive
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    It sounds like George Washington just from what I've read here?
    It is George Washington.

    It's a quote by Jefferson about Washington, actually. Very possibally an INTJ's view of an ESTJ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    I wouldn't completely count ISTp out.
    Yeah, he has some qualities, but for some reason I highly dount Washington was an ISTP...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    I recognized him as Washington as I stick with ISFj.

    Perhaps the strongest feature in his character was prudence, never acting until every circumstance, every consideration, was maturely weighed; refraining if he saw a doubt, but, when once decided, going through with his purpose, whatever obstacles opposed. His integrity was most pure, his justice the most inflexible I have ever known, no motives of interest or consanguinity, of friendship or hatred being able to bias his decision.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    The reason I don't think Washington was a Feeler is because Feelers (especially IxFJs...) generally lack the confidence to lead people in such a manner.

    Perhaps the strongest feature in his character was prudence, never acting until every circumstance, every consideration, was maturely weighed; refraining if he saw a doubt, but, when once decided, going through with his purpose, whatever obstacles opposed.
    Are not ESTJs similar? Or do only Introverts do this?

    His integrity was most pure, his justice the most inflexible I have ever known, no motives of interest or consanguinity, of friendship or hatred being able to bias his decision.
    Fi types don't let "friendship or hatred" affect their judgments?

    It was slow in operation, being little aided by invention or imagination, but sure in conclusion.
    I think we can all agree that sounds pretty SJ; especially no Ni.

    Hence the common remark of his officers, of the advantage he derived from councils of war, where hearing all suggestions,
    Ne?

    and certainly no general ever planned his battle more judiciously.
    Te?

    But if deranged during the course of the action, if any member of his plan was dislocated by sudden circumstances, he was slow in readjustment.
    Judging?

    He was incapable of fear, meeting personal dangers with the calmest unconcern.
    ... I'm pretty sure ISFJs have to battle fear...

    In his expenses he was honorable, but exact; liberal in contributions to whatever promised utility; but frowning and unyielding on all visionary projects and all unworthy calls on his charity.
    Probably ExTJ here, and again, no Ni...

    His heart was not warm in its affections; but he exactly calculated every man's value, and gave him a solid esteem proportioned to it.
    Again, this is Fi? "Calulating every man's value", etc... sounds very impersonal, very Te...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    The reason I don't think Washington was a Feeler is because Feelers (especially IxFJs...) generally lack the confidence to lead people in such a manner.
    I disagree, especially in the case of ISFjs. Besides, aren't ENFjs Feelers too and also leaders?

    In the case of INFjs (preparing for possible objections by Megan) you have a point in that they dislike imposing their will on others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Perhaps the strongest feature in his character was prudence, never acting until every circumstance, every consideration, was maturely weighed; refraining if he saw a doubt, but, when once decided, going through with his purpose, whatever obstacles opposed.
    Are not ESTJs similar? Or do only Introverts do this?
    I saw that is a description of the ISXj PoLR and hidden agenda - - a desire to be free of doubt and once they are, they want to stick to the decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    His integrity was most pure, his justice the most inflexible I have ever known, no motives of interest or consanguinity, of friendship or hatred being able to bias his decision.
    Fi types don't let "friendship or hatred" affect their judgments?
    If the "friendship and hatred" clashes with what their tells them it's the ethically right thing to do, no.

    ISFjs will cut you off from their friendship if you do something that their principles consider unacceptable - or their "sense of justice" as Jefferson put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    It was slow in operation, being little aided by invention or imagination, but sure in conclusion.
    I think we can all agree that sounds pretty SJ; especially no Ni. .
    Yes. Perhaps also a sign of being static.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Hence the common remark of his officers, of the advantage he derived from councils of war, where hearing all suggestions,
    Ne?
    dual-seeking I'd say.

    It's complicated. I think ISFjs have little problem considering several alternatives if they have not yet decided that one of them is better; that is where they are . What their PoLR has difficulty with is accepting that perhaps it's not clear, nor can it be found out, which alternative is better; the uncertainty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    and certainly no general ever planned his battle more judiciously.
    Te?
    Yes or being calculating-judicious-tactical which does speak for ESTj and against ISFj.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    But if deranged during the course of the action, if any member of his plan was dislocated by sudden circumstances, he was slow in readjustment.
    Judging?
    .
    Or Static. But could also be seen (or made worse) by PoLR. That is the point -- ISFjs are lost if things don't happen the way they "should".

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    He was incapable of fear, meeting personal dangers with the calmest unconcern.
    ... I'm pretty sure ISFJs have to battle fear...
    Everyone does.

    That refers to physical danger, apparently. ISFjs are not more vulnerable to fear of physical danger than ESTjs IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    In his expenses he was honorable, but exact; liberal in contributions to whatever promised utility; but frowning and unyielding on all visionary projects and all unworthy calls on his charity.
    Probably ExTJ here, and again, no Ni...
    "Visionary projects" can also refer to ideas, especially if it is the INTj Jefferson who's speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    His heart was not warm in its affections; but he exactly calculated every man's value, and gave him a solid esteem proportioned to it.
    Again, this is Fi? "Calulating every man's value", etc... sounds very impersonal, very Te...
    Well, at face value, yes. But again, that is the Jefferson -dual seeking INTj speaking. For him, an ISFj could seem very cold.

    On this:

    Although in the circle of his friends, where he might be unreserved with safety, he took a free share in conversation, his colloquial talents were not above mediocrity, possessing neither copiousness of ideas, nor fluency of words. In public, when called on for a sudden opinion, he was unready, short and embarrassed. Yet he wrote readily, rather diffusely, in an easy and correct style.
    The "sudden opinion" thing does suggest no great confidence in .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Further on that - -

    I had typed George Washington as ISFj before reading this, based on what I read about him elsewhere. I agree that a case can be made for ESTj from Jefferson's description, but I don't think it contradicts ISFj.

    The problem is that the two types have similarities; what I do think is clear is that Washington valued but wasn't that confident in it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    the problem is that the description of washington made by jefferson will be colored with jefferson's personality
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    From this description alone, I would have said ISTj.

    Rocky, the fearlessness described by Jefferson could very well be the that, being an INTj's PoLR, looks over-sized from Jefferson's perispective - if we assume that Jefferson is INtJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    The reason I don't think Washington was a Feeler is because Feelers (especially IxFJs...) generally lack the confidence to lead people in such a manner.
    I disagree, especially in the case of ISFjs. Besides, aren't ENFjs Feelers too and also leaders?

    In the case of INFjs (preparing for possible objections by Megan) you have a point in that they dislike imposing their will on others.
    ENFJs... they're just different... not the same kind of "leaders"... more like "chearleaders"...

    But I still don't see IxFJs as any kind of "standout" type of personality.

    this:

    Although in the circle of his friends, where he might be unreserved with safety, he took a free share in conversation, his colloquial talents were not above mediocrity, possessing neither copiousness of ideas, nor fluency of words. In public, when called on for a sudden opinion, he was unready, short and embarrassed. Yet he wrote readily, rather diffusely, in an easy and correct style.
    The "sudden opinion" thing does suggest no great confidence in .
    Yes, well this is the only thing from that quote that I find inconsistant with ESTJ, and the only thing that I can find to reasonablly doubt his type.

    Maybe I'll post more information on him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    the problem is that the description of washington made by jefferson will be colored with jefferson's personality
    Yes, I tried to point that out regarding and , and of course what FDG said about is also good/
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Actually, I have a question for cracka: do ESTJs take pride in dismissing what could be described as more "visonary" projects (like Jefferson described Washington)?

    I ask because, ISTPs are different in that respect, though we seem to enjoy severing off that old Fe function, and it doesn't seem to bother us much. Actually, I've often considered a lack of Fe a strength.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Actually this is one case where Rick's philosophy for typing celebrities does apply.

    George Washington was mainly remembered by his contemporaries - and by posterity - as a man of great moral and honor, the great exemplar, as a person, for all other presidents. A guy who set the precedent of not wanting a third term, when he could easily have gotten one.

    He is not remembered as a great general, or great administrator, or politician, or statesman - - he is remembered as a man of unshakable honor and integrity.

    not .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    He is not remembered as a great general, or great administrator, or politician, or statesman - - he is remembered as a man of unshakable honor and integrity.

    not .
    Actually, I just realized how much that doesn't make sense. I just watched his History channel biography ( ), and they talked about how he got to get all of his power and respect from his great leadership abilities. First- before anything- he was a warrior, at the age of 21. Then he became a general, etc... and was said to have a massive presence, which is why he was always chosen to lead. All that other stuff was more of a Halo Effect... but he would have never gotten anywhere without his brash personality.

    So what I'm saying is, I disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Rocky: My brother is an ISFj, and he was at one point a drill seargant. You're making ISFjs out to look like wimps or something. Why don't you think an ISFj could lead people?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicky
    Rocky: My brother is an ISFj, and he was at one point a drill seargant. You're making ISFjs out to look like wimps or something. Why don't you think an ISFj could lead people?
    ...because ISFJs and INFJs to me are the last types to stand out in a crowd, basically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Actually, I have a question for cracka: do ESTJs take pride in dismissing what could be described as more "visonary" projects (like Jefferson described Washington)?

    I ask because, ISTPs are different in that respect, though we seem to enjoy severing off that old Fe function, and it doesn't seem to bother us much. Actually, I've often considered a lack of Fe a strength.
    I missed your post before but i'll see if I can answer it, I don't exactly know the answer you're looking for but here's what I came up with.

    From my point of view...An ESTJ wouldn't dismiss something like the way Jefferson described Washington because of who it was written by and who it was about, even if it was a sort of visionary story of Washington... Now, if someone came up to me and just started telling me this same story of Washington and there's no way I know that they know what they'd be talking about, then yes, i'm sure I'd dismiss it. since to me, I can't see any proof in what they are saying, vs. a historian who knows more of Washington than he actually knew of himself, i wouldn't dismiss it..It's about if it's more factual than not to me, the source would have to make sense. I don't know if I've bounced around your question enough...lol
    On a more broad spectrum of your question...
    as for ESTJ's taking pride in dismissing visionary projects, i'd have to see another example to really answer what I think you're looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    as for ESTJ's taking pride in dismissing visionary projects, i'd have to see another example to really answer what I think you're looking for.
    Maybe more like, dismissing something that may have more future potential, but has no grounds that it will be effective, or even work. That kind of project. I think's what Jefferson was talking about when he was describing Washington. My point is that it may have something to do with the PoLR (4th function)... just like an ISTP for example may not enjoy emotional, lovey-dovey, etc... Fe stuff. We can have a taste of it, but then it overloads our systems and we have to shut it down...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    I added I poll because I place more value in this than I do in niffweed's, Joy's, Kristiina's, Hugo's, or anyone else's type on this forum.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky

    ...because ISFJs and INFJs to me are the last types to stand out in a crowd, basically.
    This I think might be more in line with the stereotypical view people have of these types than the actual reality of what they are actually like. The ISTps that I know do not tend stand out nor are they your typical leader type. I think ENFjs are probably far more likely to be leaders than ISTps just based on the descriptions of these types.

    Anyway, I agree with FDG. I think Washington is a clear case of ISTj based on the descriptions here and other things I have read about him. I can think of no other type other than ISTj for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    The ISTps that I know do not tend stand out nor are they your typical leader type.
    ... I never said ISTPs were the typical "leader" type either...
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    I wouldn't completely count ISTp out.
    Yeah, he has some qualities, but for some reason I highly dount Washington was an ISTP...
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    ...because ISFJs and INFJs to me are the last types to stand out in a crowd, basically.

    Rocky, I know you did not say they that ISTps were typical leader types. I made my comment about ISTps and leadership in response to the comments above and in consideration of whether Washington would likely be an ISTp over the possibility of him being ISFj or INFj based on which of these types are assumed to more likely be leaders.

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    Yes, well, if you compare ISTP to IxFJ, then I do think we'd stand up first (though we're of course not the typical leaders). I think it comes secondary to Introverts in general, but some just have it worse than others (sorry).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Yes, well, if you compare ISTP to IxFJ, then I do think we'd stand up first (though we're of course not the typical leaders). I think it comes secondary to Introverts in general, but some just have it worse than others (sorry).
    I think I agree with your last point in that in general introverts do often behave in the way you have described and perhaps it is also true that some introverts are more likely to stand up first or come closer to the typical ideal of a leader. However, people within types often vary a lot based on values etc. I, for instance, happen to generally prefer leading to being led and that has influenced my behaviour and position. Washington could have some sort of personal value that made him more willing and likely to be a leader than it has been assumed other IXFj persons might be (if he is in fact an IXFj). However Rocky, I do recognized that you were speaking on this issue in a general rather than specific or individual way though.

    Still, I think Washington seems ISTj what do you think of that possibility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Still, I think Washington seems ISTj what do you think of that possibility?
    The reasons I said ESTJ over ISTJ...

    He was said to have been a good "planner" and organizer, which comes easier for Extraverts (again).

    He was said to be a man of "action" first, and did little reading.

    He jumped right into things with little fear (I've heard him described as a bold or brash personality, especially when younger).

    He was said to have an explosive temper; IME, ISTJs rarely act out or demonstrate when they are angry (they get angry in their heads basically). ESTJs might be the worst in this respect (followed by ISTP?).

    He was described as "calculating everyman's value" etc... which is almost the definition of Te.

    And yes, of course his natural leadership, and the fact that he was always choosen to lead because he was said to have the most "presence" (I assume they meant that in an Extraverted way).
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    He was said to have been a good "planner" and organizer, which comes easier for Extraverts (again).
    Really? I think it might be the reverse, especially as applied to IXXj types who often plan everything in very great detail.

    He was said to be a man of "action" first, and did little reading.
    Based on my experience with ISTjs they often do not seem to read much and prefer to just do things.

    To me they appear like the number three section here which also says they tend not to read much:

    http://www.typelab.ru/en/1.1.types/index-type.html


    He jumped right into things with little fear (I've heard him described as a bold or brash personality, especially when younger).
    Could be the ISTjs .


    He was said to have an explosive temper; IME, ISTJs rarely act out or demonstrate when they are angry (they get angry in their heads basically). ESTJs might be the worst in this respect (followed by ISTP?).
    There are some very bad tempered ISTjs with explosive tempers out there Rocky. Maybe not as many as ESTjs but still quite a few.
    I seem to remember you V.I typing this guy (Gordon Ramsay) as ISTj elsewhere and he is quite strict with an explosive temper apparently.







    He was described as "calculating everyman's value" etc... which is almost the definition of Te.
    It sounds like it could be too.


    And yes, of course his natural leadership, and the fact that he was always choosen to lead because he was said to have the most "presence" (I assume they meant that in an Extraverted way).
    Many introverts have "presence"(I interpret this as charisma). I suggest that perhaps the most charismatic people in history are the ones who spoke the least overall but were internally very confident in themselves and their abilities. Presence, I have found tends not to be as related to extroversion as most people think. It often seems to be related to a more subtle quality that is difficult to define. I know lots of ISTX types with it.

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    Aren't ESTj supposed to _preserve_ instititions, or is that bullshit? Or, perhaps, is that they are only _likely_ to attempt to preserve them?
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    @Megan: then agree to disagree, since you're ISTJ sounds like my ESTJ, and I don't see ISTJs having many of those qualities.

    @Mystic: what was that in relation to? England? If so, then I would find it hard to believe that ESTJs would preserve *all* insitutions just because they are institutions. Are they incapable of revolt? I don't think so. ISTPs aren't incapable of revolt.
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    They are not incapable of revolt, they just appear less willing to revolt when the outcome of said revolution is unclear.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    @ Rocky, Agreed .

    By the way the link I was indicating that said ISTjs do not read much did not work in my last post I just realiized. The reference is under the ISTj type description of the same site though.

    Briefly quoted here:

    ISTj
    3. "Researcher. He tends to profound analysis of narrow problems, establishes fastidiously their correlation to what he has previously learnt. He knows how to listen, sometimes he can listen simultaneously to two interlocutors. His norm of loneliness is high. He does not read much, prefers more to reflect - this is his favorite condition. He always elaborates the accumulated body of knowledge for practical implementation. To those who do not understand the problem"...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    They are not incapable of revolt, they just appear less willing to revolt when the outcome of said revolution is unclear.
    Are you suggesting he was Intuitive?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan
    Many introverts have "presence"(I interpret this as charisma). I suggest that perhaps the most charismatic people in history are the ones who spoke the least overall but were internally very confident in themselves and their abilities. Presence, I have found tends not to be as related to extroversion as most people think. It often seems to be related to a more subtle quality that is difficult to define. I know lots of ISTX types with it.
    I think that is a good point.

    Further to Washington's "presence" as mentioned here -- at 6'2" he was taller than almost everyone else, Jefferson being one of the few exceptions. Add that to an impression of being solid, plus physical courage, and you have a lot of "presence" without being an extrovert. I think that means nothing in terms of typing.

    As for "preserving institutions" -- Washington was no Robespierre, he wasn't even a Jefferson. He was part of the elite that wanted to be free of English rule. But he wasn't a "revolutionary" in the individual sense. He was part of a revolutionary broad-based movement.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    "Are you suggesting he was Intuitive?"

    No, I'm suggesting it's unlikely that he was ESTj.

    "As for "preserving institutions" -- Washington was no Robespierre, he wasn't even a Jefferson. He was part of the elite that wanted to be free of English rule. But he wasn't a "revolutionary" in the individual sense. He was part of a revolutionary broad-based movement."

    I guess so; I don't really know much about Washington.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    He looks like a douche bag.

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