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Thread: Model B simplified -check it out!

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    Default Model B simplified -check it out!

    Kitchen of Quadras and Model B simplified

    If we leave aside at the moment all theoretical bla- bla - bla of the model B and just look at its structure and what it has new to offer compared to Model A. This is a brief introduction only and does not include a lot of meaning, more about the form today.

    If you remember i showed the model B for INTJ as an example:

    INTJ: -Ti………...I………….Te+

    +Ne ……I……….Ni -

    -Se…...I……..Si+

    +Fi………..I…………..Fe -

    Sory it did not come out as proper butterfly shape.

    1. Model B suggests a relocation of the blocks into a Butterfly model and suggests that functions in a psychic structure should be also considered in the same form. The relocation of blocks offers a better meaning/insight into psychodynamics or interaction between blocks and functions.


    This interaction is based on the principles of balancing between: extraversion/introversion (2 elements), rationality/irrationality (2elelments) as well as positivism + and negativism - (2 more elements). Positivism and negativism do not need to be taken literally but rather as energy and direction of flow. Positivists and negativists can be very good people. Good or bad is the realm of morality /Antimoraltiy dimension.
    The direction of infor/energy flow is important for dynamics, development and progress: clockwise/involutionary/right swastika
    anticlockwise/evolutionary/left swastika.

    The Model B suggests this location of blocks and functions within them is following:


    Ego: + Fe - - Te + .....I... Id: +Se - - Ne +



    Superego - Fi + + Ti - ... I... Superid: - Si + + Ni -


    And therefore this location of Types within the blocks:


    Ego : +ESFJ, ENFJ-, -ESTJ, ENTJ+

    Id : +ESFP, ESTP-, -ENFP, ENTP+

    Superego: -ISFJ, INFJ+, +ISTJ, INTJ-

    Superid: -ISFP, ISTP+, +INFP, INTP-

    The model which gave birth to colour theory is very simple. If you replace the letter sign for the function with a symbol of the function and cut it mentally in half - you will get two types for each side, for example Fi: left negatively loaded side is ISFJ and the right one positively loaded is INFJ.

    The model already explained static dynamic dichotomy and today I explain where positivist /negativist dichotomy comes from (see blocks above). Each type is represented in blocks accordingly to Reinin dichotomy as positivists and negativists as follows:

    Ego: + - + - + ESFJ

    - + - + - ENFJ

    - + - + - ESTJ

    + - + - + ENTJ


    Id: + - + - + ESFP

    - + - + - ESTP

    - + - + - ENFP

    + - + - + ENTP


    Superego:

    - + - + - ISFJ

    + - + - + INFJ

    + - + - + ISTJ

    - + - + - INTJ


    Superid:

    Can you do it yourself :wink: ?


    AS you can see the negtivists start and finish with - and positivists on the opposite with +
    The model did not answer all questions yet but I am sure it will.
    Model suggests two major oppositions/dimensions for balancing in creation of dynamics between blocks:
    1. control (Ego) -submission (Superid) and
    2. Selfishness (ID) - Sacrifice (Superego)

    AS colour theory has demonstrated oppositions exist between all blocks in different directions and they all play role in the interrelationship between the types.


    The model B suggests that Ego (rational extraversion -Control/Free will -adult ) and Superego block (rational introversion -Sacrifice -adult) represent Block Adult. Id (extraverted irrationality -Selfishness- child) and Superid (introverted irrationality -child) represent Block Child. Blocks Ego and Id represent extraversion and wheel Life and blocks Superego and Superid represent wheel Death/Afterlife.

    At the end I would like remind you that model B offer very sensible explanation of the development of psyche in time.

    1. I do accept that all conscious functions originate in subconscious/unconscious (or wherever Young meant!).
    2. I suggest that they do not only originate there but they also end up there like in a storage place. Some of the info lays on the surface (subconscious ) and some goes deeper into unconscious.
    3. According to model B: the beginning and the end is in the Child block which contains two blocks Id and Superid.


    2. The model also shows the common phases of the development of psyche:

    1. An egg is associated with the phase of Superid block - stage of dependance on mothers body.
    2. Caterpillar stage - Id block - Nurturance - rapid physical growth.

    Both stages represent childhood.

    3. Chrysalis - Ego development stage - stage of transformation and maturity into adulthood.

    4. Butterfly stage - colourful stage of adulthood, productivity, confidence, fulfilment, wisdom.

    5. The end of the extraverted stage Life is back to Superid, feeling old and sick and understanding that material world is not the mean to the end. Preparation for the next stage Afterlife.

    6. Death and the Judging day. If the soul is bad it can stop its’ development. Magic number 6 represents the power of Devil to take the soul. If the soul is good it will continue to improve until it will go to Nirvana for ever. Stage 7 represents the beginning of the new Afterlife circle.

    First of all I would like to know what do you think about the model so far before I will introduce my recent ideas. Don’t’ hesitate to call it Balderdash - if you feel like it. I don’t mind. Questions welcome.
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    Why is it no comment so far? Am I writing not clear or too complex? People, you better criticise me than ignore. I guess if logical types looked and did not say much that means I have passed so far from the shape perspective? No logical flaws so far?
    Actually, you could try and do someting with the model. May be it is possible to extract info about quadras - how they have been creted from the model B? I think it also gives food for thought about the intertype relationships.
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    Default Re: Model B simplified -check it out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Kitchen of Quadras and Model B simplified
    (deleted to save space)

    Superid:

    Can you do it yourself :wink: ?
    Up to this point, it offered something I might have been willing to work with at another time in the future. Past this point, when it got into the control, sacrifice, selfishness, child blocks; and the development of psyche using the egg, caterpillar, chrysalis, butterfly metaphor with a judging day and recycle concept......

    It reads too much like religio-psycho-babble, to me. But then, I had problems reading Gulenko's quadra stuff that you and Rick were nice enough to have taken the time to post. To me, the quadra stuff read like psycho-babble.

    I think, that there is only so much I'm willing to accept before I want to delve into the theory to find it's basic building blocks. In my belief, those building blocks must be based on something that can be experienced or observed. (for example; I find it easier to accept premises that point out that "A is moving in the direction of B". What I find harder to accept is when someone describes that movement as "A is attracted to B". I can see A's movement, but I cannot see A's attraction.)

    So, when someone writes:
    1. control (Ego) -submission (Superid) and
    2. Selfishness (ID) - Sacrifice (Superego)
    and then builds up a theory off of that, I'm still stuck trying to figure out how they got Ego as control, Superid as submission, Id as selfishness, and Superego as sacrifice. For that matter, half of the time I'm trying to figure out how Freud got the id, ego, superego, superid stuff in the first place.

    (Note: I have a similar problem with model A's terms of "role", "vulnerable", "suggestive", "mobilizing", "ignoring", "demonstrative" terminology...and build up using those ideas. I can grasp "base", I can grasp "creative", I can sort of grasp "role", but that's as far as I'm willing to accept. I find it much easier to consider the relationships of identical functions, complimenting functions, inhibiting functions, and correcting functions, both in relating with others, as well as relating within one's self.)

    I do not feel comfortable offering comments/critiques regarding model B, because I just don't get it. That doesn't mean that I think that there isn't something to get, only that, it's beyond me, personally.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Default Beyond us

    Thanks to Ann for comment. If you wuold not say what you ahve said I would not know where is the problem and why people do not comment.

    Please, do not be disheartenend if you do not understand something. I am here and the forum memebers are here too. All together we can get enough insight - I am sure. Somebody will say something, another provide links and definitions. We have got enogh intellectuals at the forum.

    As I mentioned at the beginning this is an introduction only and I will post soon my interpretation of blocks and dimensions and describe it as simple as possible. However, if somebody would post info about blocks from the perspective of Young and Freud - that would be much appreciated.

    Psyche is a spiritual realm and that is why I interpret it the way I feel.
    It should not stop you, however, to take from the model only the material which you can grasp and can interpret and develop further. The modle has structure/form and meaning/explanation. IMO, Model A has a lot of structure/form and less meaning - that is why the ideas are not easy to grasp. However, it is bread and salt of the modern socionics and many people put a lot of effort to make it meaningful to a certain degree and developed a careers and titles by elaborating on this model.

    My model is a baby - it was born at this forum in the middle of May this year and I am still waiting for the three Kings to come along . May be it will help if you consider modle B as a new version of Model A? You can, but at this moment I can not forsee how many changes it will bring to socionic theory once it pass the baby stage.

    One of the problem in approving it I see in people being careful. They do not look inside themselfs - they look around. If I would put a plate on the table and invite people to eat an exotic food - not many would jump to taste knowing that I used a holly water in the process of its' preparation.
    I can only hope for those who has an open mind and eager to try everything once in a life.

    You don't have to take my beliefs on board if you do not feel comfortable with them - take just what you can take! Because I would be very thankful to anyone who will help me to develop furhter whether it will be meaning or structure. I believe that different types will look at the model from their perspective and may see something in there which I do not see. At the end of the day my first wish is for the model to work and to explain things quicker and better and be simple enough to be diagested by everyone. The psychoanalytic interpretation you can consider as a free addition.

    @Ann: How about that? Can you make a pretty pattern of baby B?
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    Default Re: Beyond us

    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    @Ann: How about that? Can you make a pretty pattern of baby B?
    I think you are already there. Right now you have written out descriptions of the swastika formation and the connections amongst types. Have you tried drawing it? You already seem to have a visual in mind. Perhaps if you draw it out, scan it into your computer, and then post the picture, people might get a better idea of what you are referring to in model B. Aesthetics isn't as important as showing an estimated representation.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    I agree, I think I might understand this model better with a graphic, even if it's just rudimentary
    All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Default Anything you wish

    I will try to do the picture. On the other hand if anybody wish to do it - go ahead.

    I do not remember if I told you before that the idea about swastika was described by Jakubovskaja. I am not sure if it was originally her idea or somebody else's. People who write the books and articles in socionics - you never know what is original and what is plagiat - they all repeat themselves to a degree.

    Anyway, what Jacubovskaja did: she described the two different cycles of progress and put two pictures of swastika with extraverts outside wings and introverts inside wings. She also says that involutionary swastika does not mean bad but is correcting to evolutionary one.

    She did not say that in each swastika introverts could be considered as a separate cycle which goes into a different direction - inhibiting and correcting? But I would assume that. However, she said a few other things. For example, what may hapen if we put together 8 types from each circle of progress or what if we put all 16 types together - types from both swastikas ? What will be the interaction like? She also mentioned that some socionists believe that there is a mystical prohibition for such interaction from the perspective of energy. By interaction they mean exchange of info and not just getting together on a stadium to watch games.

    All these + and - are considered to be energy as we have some sort of electricity within us and so fucntions are energy driven. I can understand this but I would not look that far as Jacubvskaja. I would rather try to understand how exactly quadras were created, reasons behind it. Why the quadra types were picked up to create a special step in the progress. Why these types and not the others? It must be to do with a special interaction each four types create. Is it any particular order to the types within quadra or like you, Ann asked already -any cycles, and why? I believe I have found the cycle or rather structural representation of a cycle between 4 quadras but did not look yet at the cycle within each quadra.
    This needs to be done next. It would be interesting to see if f/memebers can see any cycles within and between the quadras?

    So far the model B points out that everything has got a meaning: The location of the blocks, and functions within them and this is probably to do with the different energy load. Look at the configuration of types within model B and try to find the pattern for quadra creation and explain the meaning behind.

    And the last question. How exactly are we going to interpret plus and minus within the type and between the types? We could take the one Ann has suggested in her topic of the prettiest pattern? Or we can add some more meaning to it because the same negatively or positively loaded function may have a sligtly different meaning and expression depending on the location within the type. This is more about details. I am more interested to go from the bigger picture to detailed one but you can look at anyhting you wish.

    I would look into interrelationships between types, quadras and would like to explain more of Reinin dichotomies.

    I tried to understand your pattern, Ann, and what Rick said. I wanted to find the key to understanding how the model B can work to create types. I had the basis already. I took Reinin's positivism/negativism dichotomy and attached it to the models of swastika from Jacubovskaja. I noticed how the wings of swasitka are related to plus and minus signs. it was always eithre + - - + or - + + -.

    I took the pattern on board and tried to figure out the +- signs of the fucntions within the blocks of model B.
    That was not too difficult. I attached - to Afterlife block/introverts and + to Life block/extraverts. I checked it out and it did coinside well with Reinin dichotomies - I knew by then I was on the right truck.
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    Thanks fever, point taken. I will learn how to scan and put things on PC and will try to be very short. But I do need at least some sort of responce from the audience if they understand or not, agree or not, otherwise I feel as I am talking to myself only.
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    Default Spiritual functions

    At the moment nothing more than that:

    1. Associatoin of functions with words. Model B suggests dimensions: if you strong on one function you can develop the one which is on the ohter edge. And here is the meaning of the development -balance of two functions:

    ---------------- Sensitivity of expression
    Fi = sensitivity
    Fe = expression


    ---------------- Structure of a system

    Te = system
    Ti = structure

    ------------- Sensaton/abundance of power
    Se = power
    Si = experience/sensation

    ---------------- Consequences of possibilites

    Ne = possibilities
    Ni = consequences

    As you can see you can be complete or happy without an opposite fucntion. This emphasises once again the advanced structure of model B compared to model A which gives meaning to a structure.

    2. The last news in theory was an assumption that all introverted functions in Afterlife block constitute a spiritual part of personality - your soul. Superego is a the other -directed spirituality and Superid - the sefl-directed spirituality. For closer condsideration attend to topic Ti as a social funciton under general discussion.
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    I would like to elaborate further on blocks definitions:

    Ego block - Ego control: extraverted (Life) rational (Adult) block:

    +Fe - Te + + Te - Fe

    Symbol: free will - “I know” what I am doing - Teenage crisis - Rational/systemic approach to emotional expression - purpose behind emotions.

    Types:

    +ESFJ/ ENFJ -

    system (an individual) exercises control over another system through powerful emotions. Emotions lead/direct the system. (+ or -).

    - ESTJ/ENTJ + the system (an individual) exercises control over emotions of others through the systemic approach. The system leads/directs emotions.

    Two sides of the same coin.

    Superego block - Superego control: introverted (Afterlife) rational (Adult) block:

    - Fi +Ti - -Ti +Fe

    Symbol: sacrifice - “I can” do it - other directed thought/spirituality -rational/structural/ abstract approach/service to human world.

    -ISFJ/ INFJ+ rational service to others directed by feelings. Feelings create thought.

    +ISTJ/INTJ- rational service to others directed by structural thought. Thought creates feelings.

    Two sides of the same coin.
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    b]Id[/b] block - - power/excitement of never ending possibilities. It is a life block. Enjoyment of life is in personal power over the many choices.

    ESFP/ESTP

    The possibilites which support the power and not otherwise. Materialistic and individualistic approach.


    ENFP/ENTP
    The power/excitement is used to explore the many possilibilites.


    Superid block: - experience/sensing of consequences/time processes - mysticism, imagination.
    Individual or sefl-directed spirituality, abstract level of a physical experience/sensaton, out of body experience. Afterlife block.

    I would put into this block - dreams and all what we can expereince in a dream. Something like flying without wings- which can not be experienced in reality. Symbolism. Collective unconscious?

    ISFP/ISTP

    Ha- ha? There is a lot of discussion goes on at the moment about definitions of Si and Ni. I will give you mine - very short ones:

    Experiences generate/bring about the desired consequences. The way to consequences goes through the experiences only otherwise consequences mean nothing. Consequences tied up to experinces.


    INFP/INTP

    Day dreaming as an exercise - out of time experience creates never ending patterns of non-existing/imaginable reality.
    Imagination and abstract thought about possible consequences/patterns of development will direct the selecton of experiences. Reality can be constructed on abstract level and expereinces are used to intensify the process of imagination.

    My descriptions of blocks are probably to short but still... can you identify yourself or it sounds too vague?
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    Default Sinn or internal conflicts within the pcyche

    Today I would like to take your attetnion to the positivism and negativism of working functions: together or against each other.

    Part 1 (short and sweet)

    Two functions in each block of the Model B can work together in a positive direction or against each other in a negative direction.

    There is internal conflict in each block of the Model B:

    ignores and tends to ignore and this happens in each block. Due to this internal conflicts or in other words pulling into different directions - the functions of one block do not ever appear "together" but in reality they are separated by many factors:

    1. By the wheels: Life or Afterlife.
    2. By different role they play in the Psyche: the type of producing or collecting/accepting info
    3. Rationality/conscious (Wheel Adult) and irrationality/subconscious (wheel Child).

    I guess there are more factors in reality than I mention now.

    This assumption further emphasize the statement that the base (1) and the (4 )role functions are leading and there must be the crucial difference between the types within each block: Ego, Superego, Id, Superid.

    I would interpret it that conflict as a driving force and a very basics of interaction between functions or Sin is inborn in a human psyche. The idea of the psyche development is to overcome conflicts and achieve positivity and balance.

    Example of the conflicts: Te versus Fe.

    Social services + police in the Old Good England separate the mother and the child on a basis that the mother smacked the child in public and one of the school parents happened to see it while driving in the car.
    In fact her husband was counted as the second witness because he was in car as well. All what my firend had to confirm that she was the in that place and that time. Unfortunately she was already on the record because she left once the child alone. They were separated once before when the child was 7. The child was put into care for 72 hours. - to “Anty Betty house”. A few months later the child happened to pass her house and was all in tears because he remembered straight away what is what like.

    Now they separated the mother and the child again. Both were screaming and hold by two policemens.
    The whole procedure was dome in cool blood: Te does not care for Fe.

    There are reasons behind everything and to a certain degree she deserves it - I amnot go into the reasons they are private. I used her situation as an example.

    In part two I will continue: the positivism /negativism in colour theory and how hypnotism works with regards to the blocks.

    Please, contribute in which way the functions in other blocks ignore each other or work against each other
    Or how they can positively work together by keeping a distance.
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    Default Colour theory and hypnotism

    Just to clarify quickly the conflicts in other blocks:

    Superid:
    The passion for experiences neglects consequences . and on the opposite: being preoccupied with concequences prevent experience.

    Id:
    Being preoccupied with many possibilites at a particular moment inhibit the power of action at that particular moment.

    Superego:
    Ethics/behaviour/ guidance protecting interests of people do not coincide with the proposed rules/regulatoins/universality/relativity.

    If there is a conflict within each block that means ther will be conflict within each quadra in the same way like there should be the conflict between the types of the same block.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Colour theory:

    Each colour can be loaded positively or negatively. I would assume that negatively loaded colours create colour black. For example, blue as representing Son - guidance could be positive or negative. Red as feeling and emotion can be positive and represent Mother or Love/Holly Spirit and negative as hate and cold blood. Green representing Father or Life/nature can be positive - directed to maintain life and negative as destroy life/nature. Negative “shades” will create black. Black can be considered IMO as submission to power, death, non-existence. The positive shades will create white colour which we can associate with Light and God. Light brings all colours to life. Which also means diversity.

    Hypnotism.

    Just want to clarify that hypnotism is when your ego/executive centre is not your anymore but taken either by hypnotist or Devil (exorcism). The hypnotist put people into hypnotic state by means of Superid block
    (sleep/relaxation) can have access to your unconscious through Superid, he can inflict on you very real experiences like feeling hurt by the electricity shock or feeling argasm etc., or can make you want things you do not want to do it in real life (ID) like jump under the car (suicide not by your choice) or may be something different like stop smoking or may be even self -sacrifice through Superego block.

    I would assume that in real life we have got Ego( strong or weak) and influences positive or negative from God and Devil which work through different blocks; Superego, Superid, Id.
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    I did a mistake and it looks like nobody noticed it. The functions are not separated by factor 3: rationality and irrationality.
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    Butterfly model for INTJ:

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    Default How long?

    I would like to clarify the conflicts between the functions of the same dimension. Firs of all I copy two posts and then add two new.

    I can try to define the opposition between ----

    Guidance or implementation, structure or system.

    Ti has got an abstract power of logic -Te real power of logic.

    Ti relates to the abstract representation/idea(l) of an object which may not quite fit the reality or can be implemented in many different ways which serve system .

    For example. the theorist describe a nice theory of relations. Then practic come along and has to build it with what he has. He has to build it no matter what and while building a new system based on a schema he may see flaws in theory or he may cheat the theory - whatever serves Life and Ego is priority.

    Two fucntions has to be balanced to match good theory with good implementation. Bot functions need each other in fighting chaos.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The difference between Fe and Fi is:

    Expression versus sensitivity or feelings Fi versus emotions Fe(look in my topic about model B).

    Fe and Fi - other directed that means directed to influence others.
    But they are in different blocks Ego versus Superego. Ego is not spiritual. That means Fe lacks morals/senstivity - whatever serves Ego/Life is good.

    Fi on the other hand lacks expression while having morals and sensitivity. Fi people have not been born to influence people by emotions but spiritual guidance which serves Superego/Afterlife.

    Both functions are extreme of the dimension --------- which should be balanced to be right and for the person to be happy:

    Love the other person as much as you love yourself.

    Once they are balancced we shall get Fe types which influence people and Fi types produce guidance into positive direction.
    Do you suggest that I am talking non-sense or may be my model is non-sense? For socionincs to change the environment - needs to talk about issues like that and not to ignore them.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I noticed last topics interested in defining oppositions of functions which are in the conflict and need to be balanced. I defined two already on the forum and thought that I can finish with another two dimensions:

    Model B states:

    Sensaton/abundance of power
    Se = power
    Si = experience

    Conflict when functions are too far distant from each other in their extremes.
    Si and Se belong to irrational block Child. Block child is focused on individual
    Or child’s needs.

    Si is abstract/spiritual from Superid block. This block is focused on abstract individual experiences of Si and Ni. Si knows what the best suit to individual comfort but lacks the power to create this comfort - Si knowledge is abstract. Power Se from Life block on the other hand is very real and too destructive: often ignores Si instructions.

    In their extremes they produce non-sense and negativity. What the point of knowing Si and not dong anything about it? Or having Se which does not care about Si?
    Balance produce the right result.

    …I wonder how long I should wait until this forum will understand and accept my model? Am I wasting my time?

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The last opposition: versus - Consequences of possibilities:

    Ne = possibilities
    Ni = consequences

    You can imagine whatever you want Ni but without real life possibilities - it is not worth much. You may know what you want, what may bring you lack and not but reality is not a dream world and if you do not consider real life possibilities and take chances - you will never get it and will just continue dreaming.

    On the other hand if you have a good eye on sensing many possibilities or potential of real world objects you are tempted to continue chasing them. Without having a clear idea of what you want to achieve for yourself in time you may never arrive to your dream Ni.

    "I know where I want to go and also if I go by plane it will be quicker than by car but I am not sure if this plane is the best/safest one"

    "I know that this plane is safe and better than others but I am not sure how far should I go until it runs out of petrol and crashes".

    With love from model B.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Two swastikas together. Also..there was a mistake in left swatika in my previous post: I wrote ENFP istead of ENTP. It seems nobody noticed the mistake.

    Just to remind you that original swastikas I took from the book of Jacubovskaja. I just add colours and signs: + and -.

    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Two swastikas together. Also..there was a mistake in left swatika in my previous post: I wrote ENFP istead of ENTP. It seems nobody noticed the mistake.
    I did I did!!

    I have just looked back at this thread. It looks like you put quite a bit of effort into setting up the pictures etc. Did you enjoy doing it? (the intj butterfly looks like you might have been having fun. )
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    I would not manage it without my hubby's brains. And I found it a bit hard to draw, my spacious thinking is not that good, actually.
    I just hope that these models will stimulate the thought further.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    well, for me at least, they do make some of the stuff a bit clearer.

    though i'm still stuck on how this guy came to his conclusions, what info he based this on, etc.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    The funny thing is that I was thinking about it as well. I still do not grasp the idea of Left and right types. Why and how the types are have been devided like that.

    Jacubovskaja is a female and it may be not her idea at the end. I looked at the book but I think at this moment I lack knowledge of interrelationships - I need time to remember it.

    She says that if we combine two circles of "social request", which turn into the same direction. Rick wrote about it:

    Augusta saw great societal importance in asymmetric relations and believed they contributed to societal progress. She called the relationship between ESE and IEE, for example, "relations of social request" ("request" is the term I use), because ESE sends a one-way request to IEE and stimulates the IEE to solve -related problems hinted at by the ESE. The ESE's causes a suggestive (hypnotic?) influence on the IEE, who can fall too much under the ESE's influence if he does not have duals around. SLIs have relations of supervision with ESE, which offer little for the SLI, so he influences the IEE to not get so close to the ESE, which the SLI sees as a "dangerous influence." Augusta saw the presence of duals to be necessary to establish the correct psychological distance between request partners that would allow for "proper transmission of social requests," and, hence, societal progress.

    I will continue.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Actually, did anybody notice that I messed up a bit with the definition of blocks? I need somebody to watch me closely because I concentrate on global picture and can easily mess up details. And when I am emotional I think the whole knowledge fly out my head. You still can trust me .
    In socionis:
    Ego - I know
    Superego - I need
    Superid - I want
    Id - I can

    I will see if I need to make ammendments to what I wrote.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Jacubovskaja about swastikas

    Going back to swastikas. The realtionship of social request are called relations of Benefit on Sergei's site. For example, on the left swatika:

    ENTJ is Benefactor to ESTP and ESTP is his Beneficiary. ENFP is Benefactor to ENTJ and ENTJ is a Beneficiary to ENFP. It goes only between extraverts or between introverts. Extraverts can not be benefactor or beneficiary to introvert and on the opposite.

    ISFJ is benefactor to INFP. INFP benefactor to INTJ. INTJ is benefactor to ISTP and ISTP is Benefactor to ISFJ.

    Thanks Good I've understood it at last.

    Jacubovskaja writes that types in each swastika have got the relationships of duality, Benefit/social request, Superego and Conflict. The circles of progress (swastikas) have social and global meaning. Extravert and introvert - dual pair represent a powerful pair. They support each other. Extravert is directed to expand the power and introvert to consolidate the power. Therefore they work together towards movement forward and progress in society. It is possible when one power is directed to wards the centre and another power is placed at 90 degrees to it. Then it creates a circle movement or rather spiral movement.

    The circle of progress (left swastika) includes the dual pairs which go first in quadras. The right swastika has got dual pairs which are placed as 3d and 4th in quadras. The right swastika deliveres info the left swastika.

    Swastika represents 8 cosmic powers where 4 powers are directed to the centre and 4 others … of the centre.

    Jacubovskaja believes that types of right swastika correct the work of the types of left swastika; bringing stability and a new perspective. That means there are powers which actively change the world and those who try to keep all what has been achieved so far. They play a role of resistance and conservatism.

    However, she suggests, that it does not mean that left swastika creates and right swastika holds the positions, because the discoveries may have a purpose of either creating something new or directed to correct that new creation or even to conserve it.

    She also says that this is a schema only. While in global sense it all may be true in each and every single case - it may not be applicable because socionics is only one of the factors influencing life of an individual but those factors are multiple.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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