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Thread: Duality makes you a better person?

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    Default Duality makes you a better person?

    So does it? I read that experiencing duality makes one have a more stable psyche, more intuned with their functions?

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    Absolutely. First your neurosis goes away, then what happens is that you stop stressing about all those things that confuse you and deadlock your mind; then, you start to do your main function stuff and feel super confident and appreciated for doing what you are without apologies for being you. Just don't cheat on your dual; you don't want to break duality when you have it.

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    Depends on the dual. Duality is put on a pedestal as the sole type of relationship for true interpersonal compatibility, which I don't entirely buy. I've met plenty of ISTps who I haven't been particularly interested in, or if I have then there would still be remaining interpersonal incompatibilities like lifestyle, culture, priorities, etc that would get in the way. Sure we'd get along and learn from each other's basic thought patterns which might influence our own for the better, but if that interpersonal interest isn't there in the first place then such lessons can only be learned as a cognitive thought exercise.

    There's so much more to people and how they get along with others than whatever Socionics would have them believe. If nothing else, the intertype relationships should be taken as general outlines of how communication may happen between two people given that all other variables aren't an issue.
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    ....Having a hard time even trying to engage with my dual, wish I could atleast experience it for once.

    But what I mean is...does it make you a better person, period? With or without your dual.

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    I understand Galen, but have you ever experienced this -need- to meet your dual again, overwhelming urge to be with them...even if you've never spent much time with them or even met them before? Im not talking about the certain occasions where you weren't that interested in your dual, im refering to an ideal situation where you are attracted to your dual. (Im not making much sense right now, im half asleep).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    ....Having a hard time even trying to engage with my dual, wish I could atleast experience it for once.
    They're around, trust me. But ending up with a dual shouldn't be the end-all be-all in relationships, I find that personal growth can come about from interaction with anybody of any type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    But what I mean is...does it make you a better person, period? With or without your dual.
    I'm not sure what you're asking here: does duality make you a better person even when you aren't with a dual?
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    Yeah I see a few of my duals, I just don't think i've ever experienced duality itself.

    Im going to try and find the several articles i've read, but they basically said that experiencing duality allows one to become more comfortable with themselves and their ego/base functions, to become your more natural self.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Yeah I see a few of my duals, I just don't think i've ever experienced duality itself.
    Well how can you find your dual if you don't have a typing? At this point your goal would be more akin to "finding people I like."

    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Im going to try and find the several articles i've read, but they basically said that experiencing duality allows one to become more comfortable with themselves and their ego/base functions, to become your more natural self.
    I wouldn't say that it allows you to *become* your natural self per se, more that being around people who share IE values allows one to express themselves more comfortably without as much fear of misunderstandings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    I understand Galen, but have you ever experienced this -need- to meet your dual again, overwhelming urge to be with them...even if you've never spent much time with them or even met them before? Im not talking about the certain occasions where you weren't that interested in your dual, im refering to an ideal situation where you are attracted to your dual. (Im not making much sense right now, im half asleep).
     
    I'll chime in and say that "overwhelming urge" is a bit much, but otherwise, yes. I have felt a very strong desire to talk with and be with a dual, who was attractive, even though I had not personally spoken with them, then (this was before I self-typed as I do now but helped get the process going). I also felt myself becoming a better person and a more authentic person in my attempts to cross the distance, so to speak. It was like finding myself just as it was finding the kind of person who I would want to be my "better half" so to speak without feeling any unease in the prospect of uniting with that sort of person.

    I experienced similar with platonic attractions towards ILIs (my best female friend and one of my best guy friends). We had an instantaneous draw to each other when we met and talked and it was pretty obvious we would seek each other out again. It also helped that we both had a lot in common, especially with my female friend who was a college mate. Even after she graduated classmates who were also classmates with us in the same classes commented how connected we were since we would talk about anything despite people being around (rather personally things, too). At least a girl I typed as ESI remarked as to how close the two of us were. I hadn't even paused to consider it because it felt so natural.

    It was easy to talk, really. I felt extremely calm and accepted with the guy and girl friend and just acted like myself. I felt stable, at ease, content, and so on in a way I don't normally feel. It was easy to drop my insecurities and express my strengths and still express deeper and more intellectual thoughts that I might feel self-conscious talking about with a lot of other people.

    I mean, some of the duality descriptions seem over the top idealistic and not all dual relations play out as well as it depends on the actual individuals, of course, but I think having people in your life, who you are close to, is important in promoting psychological ease and balance. I also think duality is easy to take for granted because it is as comfortable as it is, too. So the idea that duality is some magical feeling like falling in love is silly, but if you do fall in love and with someone dual to you, I think it could be closer to the exhilarating descriptions common to socionics duality.


    My take.
    Last edited by aixelsyd; 05-06-2012 at 10:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    I understand Galen, but have you ever experienced this -need- to meet your dual again, overwhelming urge to be with them...even if you've never spent much time with them or even met them before? Im not talking about the certain occasions where you weren't that interested in your dual, im refering to an ideal situation where you are attracted to your dual. (Im not making much sense right now, im half asleep).
    I have experienced this before fairly recently with a Te-SLI 9w8 sx/sp. Despite our sexual incompatibilities, we made an instant connection with each other and we're now best friends. He's sort of on a different wavelength emotionally from me (very much a positive-outlook variant of E9 versus my self-involved E6 reactivity), but it's still very easy for us to open up about ourselves and what we want; no real need to explain our positions to each other, it's just a matter of "oh yeah, I get that." I still posit that instinct stacking is more influential in how we get along, and without that our attraction to each other wouldn't have been as strong.

    FWIW I've had that experience with a non-dual as well, a Te-INTp. So don't let the prospect of duality be everything in terms of how two people get along.
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    ugh

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    Being in a "positive" relationship generally makes you a better person; since duality is one relationship among many, then when its development is positive it'll generally make you a better person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    ....Having a hard time even trying to engage with my dual, wish I could atleast experience it for once.

    But what I mean is...does it make you a better person, period? With or without your dual.
    I think that you make yourself a better person, not duality. Duality can provide for a somewhat better staging point for conducting your life, but what you create of yourself ultimately originates with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    I think that you make yourself a better person, not duality. Duality can provide for a somewhat better staging point for conducting your life, but what you create of yourself ultimately originates with you.
    I think this says it best as far as being a better person.
     
    The idea of duality is having people who are theoretically the best matches to let yourself be yourself without psychological discomfort and I believe that, obviously, just as I believe there's a reason why people have different thinking styles and some styles are more compatible than others...that's just common sense and socionics tries to explore that and proposes a theory. However, being a good person or a better person is a conscious choice, I think. If someone doesn't try at all, another person, duality or not, won't be able to do much good on that.

    Concentrating on experiencing duality or whatever isn't really helpful. Things will happen if you listen to your gut and if you try to live in a way that you feel proud of and happy with. But I guess that's common sense, too. Of course, I see socionics as an explanation I personally believe in based on experience more than I see it as a guide for life. Same goes with other things that have added to my broader understanding (i.e. gender theory, spiritual philosophy, and whatever ideology that has made an impact).

    It seems true and I try to make the best of that understanding where relevant and not let the idea of an ideal relation be a reason to miss out on other great relationships that may not be the socionic ideal. But I guess I'm just pointing out the obvious like I tend to do.

    But I believe if people live their lives and try to go after what is right for them, personal success, and all that, it'll happen...whatever good thing that is. No need to read a lot of articles to necessarily do that.

    In less words, you can't engage another person if they're not willing or if the circumstances don't really allow for it. But as in a lot of things, to validate yourself and accept yourself as you are and become stronger and better, whatever, is the first step to finding stability, happiness, contentment, a happy relationship, and so on.

    Without intending to sound like I'm talking down or being condescending towards your inquiry.
    Last edited by aixelsyd; 05-06-2012 at 10:05 AM.
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    Oh shit, where's my dictionary.

    Anyway, the one I've been to in the past, was damn okay. I didn't die from laziness nor nor maladaptive something. Sounds like illusionary to me.

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    Duals are most likely to accept you the way you are provided you have common interests or goals and base for interaction. Being the social animals we are we like that and it makes us feel good and fulfilled. It stimulates us in a positive way.
    It is not the same as making you a better person. Negative stimuli could also make you a better person.

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    I didn't experience duality until my late 30s--I didn't grow up with a dual at home or even in my extended family. So when I finally started interacting with one, it was life changing. Not to say that they changed me! No, they didn't do anything. But rather I felt the calmness, the confidence, the strength from that relationship that allowed me to do things I never would have done before. So yes, making you a better person? Absolutely. But it's you doing that work. And if you've had a dual in your life from a young age, it might not mean much.

    Also, I know an SLE/IEI couple who are divorced. She cheated. But they were both unhealthy and being together didn't seem to get them past this unhealthiness. Other things happened--he was in a car accident and lost his business, etc. The divorce itself was smooth. They went together before the judge, literally holding hands. And they still have an easy time of working things out with the kids. But they're both sort of unhealthy. So... what to say about this. Duality doesn't necessarily mean that suddenly you're going to be improved. You might be, depending on what you're used to, and what that experience does inside of you. You're the one who determines that.

    If you're not used to it, and then you have it, and then you lose it, it does create an empty space. The psychological yin/yang. You crave it, a bit like sex I think.
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    I don't think anybody just makes themselves be a better person. It's silly to think that just YOU alone do it. Nobody got where they were *completely* by themselves. It plays a huge part sure, but they also learned how to trust the right people. I remember I started changing for the better when I actually found people who were empathetic to how I was feeling and didn't just take me hyper literally. It's such a nice feeling when I can talk to somebody and not feel judged or hurt. Most people you gotta put on some sort of mask or just fake it because they will be too harsh with your feelings. And I mean that's okay, that's just how "the world" is you know... but I would have probably killed myself w/o the empathy of others sometimes haha.

    And honestly I believe the right emotional energy from somebody else can heal/cure almost anything. We've all read the inspiring story about the person during childhood who was sociopathically bullied and tormented all his life. He couldn't "Just get over It" because they were so mean to him, but then later on he found a supportive family who really cared about him and grew to be a very successful and powerful person.

    I know it's wrong to get too attached to just one person because it's like stuck-y death (though I wish people wouldn't always be so cynical in romantic relationships). But we need community and we need each other. It goes hand in hand. Once the emotional boo-boos are truly healed that person can grow to be even more independent. I don't believe in socialism but I believe in community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    ....Having a hard time even trying to engage with my dual, wish I could atleast experience it for once.

    But what I mean is...does it make you a better person, period? With or without your dual.
    I dunno. Define better then ask yourself why you want to be it. What about your personality so disturbs you that you think someone else has to improve you without even really defining how they have to do it? I mean Gandhi was an awesome dude and all but, plenty of evil people have done things just as impressive, evil... but impressive.

    My point is that you can do the things you want to do, you can be your dreams without your dual. . .

    You want to find some IEIs try a library though, it's cliche but true, plenty of them in theater too. They also really like to write in my experience, so online forums, newspaper journalists, authors what have you. In fact you can find any type in pretty much any field of interest so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I don't think anybody just makes themselves be a better person. It's silly to think that just YOU alone do it. Nobody got where they were *completely* by themselves. It plays a huge part sure, but they also learned how to trust the right people. I remember I started changing for the better when I actually found people who were empathetic to how I was feeling and didn't just take me hyper literally. It's such a nice feeling when I can talk to somebody and not feel judged or hurt. Most people you gotta put on some sort of mask or just fake it because they will be too harsh with your feelings. And I mean that's okay, that's just how "the world" is you know... but I would have probably killed myself w/o the empathy of others sometimes haha.

    And honestly I believe the right emotional energy from somebody else can heal/cure almost anything. We've all read the inspiring story about the person during childhood who was sociopathically bullied and tormented all his life. He couldn't "Just get over It" because they were so mean to him, but then later on he found a supportive family who really cared about him and grew to be a very successful and powerful person.

    I know it's wrong to get too attached to just one person because it's like stuck-y death (though I wish people wouldn't always be so cynical in romantic relationships). But we need community and we need each other. It goes hand in hand. Once the emotional boo-boos are truly healed that person can grow to be even more independent. I don't believe in socialism but I believe in community.

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    yeah, good points B&D.
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    Can you conceive a well-dualized unstable person? How?

    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    I think that you make yourself a better person, not duality. Duality can provide for a somewhat better staging point for conducting your life, but what you create of yourself ultimately originates with you.
    I think you make the feces, not the lasagne you ate two days ago. Lasagne can prove some building material thus changing the texture, but what you create out of yourself ultimately originates within you.

    We are merely genetic self-perpetuating machines which are programmed by interaction between the assumed environment and the programming (or the lack of) that is our mind. Many experiences have a high chance to change the programming in seemingly chaotic manner. This chaos and mystery gives space for the illusion of free will; we start declaring that it's what I did with my inner strength when I was virtuous and how I had a weak will when I indulged in a vice, never mind my history of programming for I am the master of my Self.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    We are merely genetic self-perpetuating machines which are programmed by interaction between the assumed environment and the programming (or the lack of) that is our mind. Many experiences have a high chance to change the programming in seemingly chaotic manner. This chaos and mystery gives space for the illusion of free will; we start declaring that it's what I did with my inner strength when I was virtuous and how I had a weak will when I indulged in a vice, never mind my history of programming for I am the master of my Self.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Can you conceive a well-dualized unstable person? How?

    I think you make the feces, not the lasagne you ate two days ago. Lasagne can prove some building material thus changing the texture, but what you create out of yourself ultimately originates within you.

    We are merely genetic self-perpetuating machines which are programmed by interaction between the assumed environment and the programming (or the lack of) that is our mind. Many experiences have a high chance to change the programming in seemingly chaotic manner. This chaos and mystery gives space for the illusion of free will; we start declaring that it's what I did with my inner strength when I was virtuous and how I had a weak will when I indulged in a vice, never mind my history of programming for I am the master of my Self.
    Definitely a well dualized person wouldn't be unstable. (I wonder whether duality helps in curing severe mental illnesses. Would be interesting to study that). But in case you don't find a dual in your life time, I don't think you are doomed to failure or instability either. I think there is always a natural balancing act between working on yourself and external help. I feel both are needed. Even in duality itself there is a balance between inspiring your dual's introspection and giving them external help. All in a psychologically and physically safe zone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Lorne View Post
    I wonder whether duality helps in curing severe mental illnesses.
    I sure hope so.

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    I don't see why duality would make people better people. It might make people happier in their relationship, and maybe from a place of happiness they will be able to do more good, but OTOH it wouldn't have to, and people who are in even horrible relationships can be good people. People in good relationships can be horrible people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I don't see why duality would make people better people. It might make people happier in their relationship, and maybe from a place of happiness they will be able to do more good, but OTOH it wouldn't have to, and people who are in even horrible relationships can be good people. People in good relationships can be horrible people.
    I think that duality creates an atmosphere of acceptance and understanding *from which* the individual can let down their defenses and feel safe enough so that they can improve areas of their life that need improving. This may look different to each individual.

    For me, I had little confidence in myself because what I had to offer wasn't needed by those around me. And everyone seemed to expect different things from me than what I was naturally. When I met someone (actually I know more than one dual, they're each helpful) who needed me to be exactly who I am, it was like a gigantic sigh of bliss (and not in a romantic sense). It helped me to see myself for who I am, the dual became a mirror, in a way. Reflecting back the best of me and yet like a sponge, needing what I had to offer. For me, it wasn't the relationship itself that was end-all, be all, but rather the self confidence and different view of myself that was gained through knowing that person. Knowing a dual made me a better person because it made me more myself and brought out my strongest qualities.
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    IMO if you want to be good person, duality my help you. Duality or even other compatible people who wish you well can help you deal with your inner problems. I'd say duality helps you become a healthy person, not necesserily a better one. And what does it mean: better?

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    Actually I guess I have experiencd duality, my mother I believe...but since there are certain limitations in that type of relationship thats not what im talking about. i'm talking about a more intimate relationship where you can really let loose.

    I guess I shouldn't have said "better person", I meant becoming your more natural self, more intune with how you really are.

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    I'd say your relationship with your mother is as good as any. I have an ESFj childhood friend (male) and sometimes I think being friends for life is more than enough. I wouldn't mind marrying one and it's more convenient in some ways, but that's all there is to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    I guess I shouldn't have said "better person", I meant becoming your more natural self, more intune with how you really are.
    You are what you are. As for being in tune with how you really are - this is a bit weird. It reads like you were fake and, I don't know, insincere in the past and only duality makes you the person you are right now, that is, free of any impurities and the like.

    I think it [duality] enables you to see things differently and that's what I find alright - it is refreshing. As far theory goes, that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You are what you are. As for being in tune with how you really are - this is a bit weird. It reads like you were fake and, I don't know, insincere in the past and only duality makes you the person you are right now, that is, free of any impurities and the like.

    I think it [duality] enables you to see things differently and that's what I find alright - it is refreshing. As far theory goes, that is.
    I would say the specific way in which you see things differently is more along the lines of you just see things as your dual would possibly react to them that way too, but you probably don't need a dual in your life to see and react to things as they would.
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    Appreciate the responses guys..and yeah absurd, that's another aspect of duality i'm concerned about, how it helps you better understand your flaws from a different perspective. That's part of the reason why I said better person, because you'll be able to see your weaknesses in a different light, which will in term give you a chance to handle/correct your weaknesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Appreciate the responses guys..and yeah absurd, that's another aspect of duality i'm concerned about, how it helps you better understand your flaws from a different perspective. That's part of the reason why I said better person, because you'll be able to see your weaknesses in a different light, which will in term give you a chance to handle/correct your weaknesses.
    Well yes, in a sense. Your 'weaknesses' may vanish but it's more of a your strengths shine to the point that they drown out anything you might consider a weakness kind of thing from what I understand. Generally your dual is someone who couldn't care less about you being bad at the things you are bad at but really really likes you for the things you are good at.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    I would say the specific way in which you see things differently is more along the lines of you just see things as your dual would possibly react to them that way too, but you probably don't need a dual in your life to see and react to things as they would.
    Well, I don't know how my dual is going to react for certain, I take it positively or negatively depending on what I do - I sure hope for the former, but hope is hope. Besides that's not what I wrote. I literally meant seeing things differently, something I can't come up on my own and if one doesn't need a dual in his/her life to react to things as they would, then the entire concept of duality is myth. If the entire concept of duality is myth, that is socionics be stripped of it, then there's no much left if anything. We can just as well register on some horoscope site and match our zodiac signs for compatibility.

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    I think being better -- that is, a person deciding she/he wants to be better, deciding what "better" means for her/him, and deciding to move in that direction -- is very personal and in many ways an individual process.

    But having a dual friend or lover, or another trusted and close person, nearby (emotionally nearby) could help once a person has taken the first step of deciding to be better.

    Psychologically close duals can help you discover who you are and accept that, and this is an important step in making meaningful improvements on who you are. If in the first place you realize that you are "okay" and worthy of love and appreciation, flaws and all, you're more likely to have success building on that when/if you set your sights on self-improvement.

    But by the same token, you may decide that the things you would have focused on improving in the past aren't so important after all; with a dual by your side to help you (even unbeknownst to you both at times), you realize what's worth improving. That's because with a dual you discover that some of the things you don't like about yourself -- your self-perceived flaws and shortcomings that you've been ashamed of in the past -- are okay because not only are they not such big deals after all, but some other people (duals especially) will not only take up the slack in those areas but will do so without even minding; quite the contrary, actually -- they'll be happy to take care of those areas because it's easy for them and, having found you, they've found someone who appreciates them for just who they are too.

    Disclaimer: Duality is not perfect. It is comfortable and has great potential as each partner can appreciate the other's strengths without harping on their weaknesses (once duality is established, that is; in the beginning this may not be the case). That mutual appreciation, imo, is what makes duality so special; to feel appreciated is to feel loved. This is what keeps each partner engaged in a meaningful way.

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    This might be a huge generalization.... but do you guys find Betas to be slightly more invested in duality, in a more emotionally powerful way? In order to satisfy that sense of emotional intensity and romanticism to the highest and most passionate degree? Or maybe that's how Beta sees duality? Other Quadras probably value duality differently, according to their own quadra values?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Well, I don't know how my dual is going to react for certain, I take it positively or negatively depending on what I do - I sure hope for the former, but hope is hope. Besides that's not what I wrote. I literally meant seeing things differently, something I can't come up on my own and if one doesn't need a dual in his/her life to react to things as they would, then the entire concept of duality is myth. If the entire concept of duality is myth, that is socionics be stripped of it, then there's no much left if anything. We can just as well register on some horoscope site and match our zodiac signs for compatibility.
    *shrugs* Eh. I don't think a dual is necessary for a person to be dualized, didn't say it wouldn't help or that everyone can do it on their own. I think some people don't need another person, or don't need that person in the sense of a very close committed relationship, I mean certainly it helps some people and maybe those people wouldn't have done it without the help but I don't think that's always the case or that it always has to be the case.

    I think there are multiple paths to enlightenment and what's best for one may not even work for someone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Lorne View Post
    This might be a huge generalization.... but do you guys find Betas to be slightly more invested in duality, in a more emotionally powerful way? In order to satisfy that sense of emotional intensity and romanticism to the highest and most passionate degree? Or maybe that's how Beta sees duality? Other Quadras probably value duality differently, according to their own quadra values?
    Yes. The short answer is yes. The long answer is something along the lines of Betas are very accepting of the romantic idea that is duality and because they value the inherent romance become more invested in the idea itself. I'm sure Betas who aren't on this forum still value duality in some sense but they may not call it that. It's a romantic thing and betas just get romance in the sense that they understand it very well.

    And yes even the STs. Though they may be far less inclined to vocalize it.
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    A dual can have a "tempering" effect on you. Duals tend to allow each other to tone down their ego functions a bit, thus rendering each other less obnoxious. You know the sort of thing... an LSE who will often be in overdrive until they're in the presence of an EII and they'll calm it down a bit, an ILI like the Underground Man from Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground becoming less neurotically cynical about everything when an SEE pulls him out of his existential anguish, etc. Essentially, they allow you to see beyond your own realm in a way that isn't threatening.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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