Videotype Me!!!

[Animal]

finis

[ashlesha]

i never watch these videos all the way through but i did lol. you have an endearing way about you and i'm curious what people are like in the flesh and how the socionics stuff plays out because i've never met anyone here either.

as for my eii vote, i narrowed it down to eii/iei rather than starting from scratch and between the two you remind me more of people i've typed eii in a very vague way. its just an impression, nothing definitive.

i don't really care for that painting either.

[Animal]

Thanks lungs! Yeah, it's interesting how different people are from what you'd glean from their writing styles. Probably my biggest obstacle in thinking EII for me is that I could swear my duals are SLEs, lol. I'll keep my mouth shut until a few more people have watched and voiced their thoughts, though.

[Suz]

Thanks lungs! Yeah, it's interesting how different people are from what you'd glean from their writing styles. Probably my biggest obstacle in thinking EII for me is that I could swear my duals are SLEs, lol. I'll keep my mouth shut until a few more people have watched and voiced their thoughts, though.

Maybe you're mixing up SLEs and LSEs just like you had a different mental conception of what an IEI vs EII is like. There's also the thing where conflictors can get attracted to each other initially.

[Radio]

Anderson Cooper looks ISTj to me, but that's another debate altogether.

[Valkyrie]

I agree with Radio.
Si-Fe or otherwise Ni-Fe.

I can see definitely see the Fe, and it matches what you say about yourself too.
The communication style and want for feedback cues/etc. Fi doesn't seem probable; it's all external ethical dynamics.

[Suz]

Anderson Cooper looks ISTj to me, but that's another debate altogether.

OMG he is so not!!

[glam]

God, I feel bad for making glam out to be kind of mean. She was much nicer than I make her out to be in these videos, lol.

lol now i'm nervous to watch


and why is everyone hating on my painting

[Animal]

lol now i'm nervous to watch


and why is everyone hating on my painting

I feel bad now. I was trying to use the painting as maybe and illustration of some Socionics dynamics stuff (but it's probably just personal preference). Actually now that I look at the painting while actually listening to some jazz, I don't hate it as much.

[ashlesha]

i will blame too much Fe.

i like your avatars better glam.

[glam]

nooo Auvi, i would love to go to DC and meet up w/you again (and April!)

please don't feel bad, i didn't think you presented me as being mean - also it's good that you expressed your real feelings about the painting - i prefer hearing honest opinions from people (even if i don't agree!) but yes, i guess i wasn't a fan of a lot of that visual art; i found a lot of it cheap and gimmicky and soulless, and/or just plain ugly - including a lot of what i typed as Beta.

about your type: i truly didn't mean to imply "gtfo of my quadra" when i asked you about the possibility of EII it was basically like you said; i noticed the differences between us, in terms of communication style, art preferences, etc., and i was being reminded of other EII males i have typed in the past - so i had to wonder about it... i just hope i didn't offend you by questioning your self-typing. i didn't think it would bother you, so i went ahead and asked. (fwiw personally i am not bothered by people questioning my self-typing, but then again it's a rare occurrence)

oh: lol @ that last part when you were talking about spoken Socionics: "was that English...?" hahaha.. i guess i don't notice it because i regularly talk about socionics IRL, though in public sometimes it does cross my mind that bystanders might be thinking "wtf is she talking about...?"

[Radio]

ISXp???

> INFx

edit: Si-ISFp > Ni-INFp

[Animal]

nooo Auvi, i would love to go to DC and meet up w/you again (and April!)

please don't feel bad, i didn't think you presented me as being mean - also it's good that you expressed your real feelings about the painting - i prefer hearing honest opinions from people (even if i don't agree!) but yes, i guess i wasn't a fan of a lot of that visual art; i found a lot of it cheap and gimmicky and soulless, and/or just plain ugly - including a lot of what i typed as Beta.

about your type: i truly didn't mean to imply "gtfo of my quadra" when i asked you about the possibility of EII it was basically like you said; i noticed the differences between us, in terms of communication style, art preferences, etc., and i was being reminded of other EII males i have typed in the past - so i had to wonder about it... i just hope i didn't offend you by questioning your self-typing. i didn't think it would bother you, so i went ahead and asked. (fwiw personally i am not bothered by people questioning my self-typing, but then again it's a rare occurrence)

oh: lol @ that last part when you were talking about spoken Socionics: "was that English...?" hahaha.. i guess i don't notice it because i regularly talk about socionics IRL, though in public sometimes it does cross my mind that bystanders might be thinking "wtf is she talking about...?"

Aw, thanks glam! As I said at dinner that day, "I am who I am and I get along with who I get along with." So, if some random Russian typology system doesn't work out, fuck it, lol. I definitely was not offended by your questioning my type. From the dynamics between us, it was certainly understandable. I definitely appreciated the candid feedback. The "GTFO of my quadra" thing was just me being an ass, lol. I actually felt similarly about most of that art. I didn't have very strong opinions one way or the other. It all just seemed sort of "there." If I were to describe you, I'd probably say you were mysterious, and that you had a very grounded presence. I bet some of those bystanders probably thought you were talking about some sinister human engineering project!

Definitely hit me up if you're in D.C. again!

ISXp???

> INFx

edit: Si-ISFp > Ni-INFp

Interesting. i did consider SEI for a bit, but Gilly laughed at me.

Baby, I <3 you!! you're hilarious! And you have such a diplomatic way of putting things... I am so impressed..

Yeah, EII works for you. It's funny, you have the EXACT same mannerisms/facial expressions/method of talking as someone else I know irl and was trying to type. EII works for him too I guess (I was thinking either delta or gamma for him). You also seem a bit like Anderson Cooper, in how you talk and present things... He makes more eye contact with the camera, but he's a professional TV figure. Your eye contact style is EXACTLY like that other guy i know, and also the way you make the little tight lipped smile sometimes while you're talking

LOL and i feel the same exact way as you about visual art (and that painting sorry glammy). I appreciate and enjoy the performing arts a lot more. Oh and LOL @ that whole hkkmr fast talking bit! I was CRACKING up. I kind of got that he's outgoing from my interactions with hkkmr (we've chatted some) and he also looks like someone I know who is very outgoing so that could be why i made that association.

man, i wish i came to the meet... sounds like you guys had a blast! Was a bad weekend for me (was working all day saturday). I'll try to plan for next time...

Aw, that's really sweet,WA! Very interesting thoughts. Interesting you thought I was similar to someone from Delta or Gamma. I usually get one of the Merry quadras. I can sort of see the Anderson Cooper thing. He has a similar goofiness about him, lol. hkkmr was definitely not what I'd expected. Imagine reading his posts with the voice of Karl Pilkington in your head. That's how I always heard his voice, lol. We should definitely meet up sometime! I actually get along with IEEs really well. One of my best friends is one I think... he reminds me of Josh Hutcherson <-- is that guy IEE?

Of the two Delta NFs, I think IEE might be a better fit than EII, actually. I dunno, though. I never really considered myself an extrovert. Although, I do have anxiety and that might obscure my type a bit.

Maybe you're mixing up SLEs and LSEs just like you had a different mental conception of what an IEI vs EII is like. There's also the thing where conflictors can get attracted to each other initially.

That's a possibility. I typed my brother as SLE, so it would be hilarious if I just spun everything around and Si is what I think is Se and all that, lol. Here is an example of the sort of person I think of as my dual. What type is she?:

I agree with Radio.
Si-Fe or otherwise Ni-Fe.

I can see definitely see the Fe, and it matches what you say about yourself too.
The communication style and want for feedback cues/etc. Fi doesn't seem probable; it's all external ethical dynamics.

Interesting that I'm getting Si-Fe. Never considered being a sensory type before, so this is interesting! I definitely thought I exuded some Fe in these videos. If that's not Fe, I kind of don't know what is, lol. If you click on the video and watch it on Youtube, you can find Maritsa's videos as one of the recommendations, I think. She seems a lot more serious and less emotionally effusive than I see myself. She's more like how I imagine EIIs.

But you seem to be completely disregarding the interpersonal dynamics that occurred between a known IEI (Glam) and Baby as well as his interactions with a known EII (April). I guess SEI is a possibility, i wont discount that, but IEI is obviously out.

One thing that really sticks out to me is how Baby said something like "I pay attention to how the painting makes me feel." That does sound very much like Si, but can also be Fi mixed in there. Another thing that really sticks out to me is how he noted the "gap" between how glam and he were relating. That's Fi, imo.

dont forget delta NFs are also good at Fe!

Of course, there's another possibility: everyone else is wrong about their type. Sorry folks! You're all wrong!

Baby, check out this video of Leonard Cohen... I get sort of a similar demeanor from him as I got from you...

I always thought Leonard Cohen was INTp or INFp... LOL, my Socionics is a travesty.

From what i've read from your post on the forum, i can't see an issue with iei. I have the MOST trouble typing identicals tbh, i think it's because like you I base INFp's on myself - thats all i've got. If you're sure which type's your dual or your which is your conflictor that would clear things up immenseley, these relations are very strong & hard to mistake.

Yeah, I was always kind of confused about the EII typings because they seem much more serious than I see myself. Definitely check out the video I posted to WorkaholicsAnon with Nadia G. She reminds me of girls in the past who I've typed as SLE. If that's an LSE, that is... surprising, lol

You're so much fun to listen to! Usually these videos I can make it through a minute or two, and get bored, but I watched both parts, the whole thing. You're very pleasant and entertaining, and it was interesting to hear about the meetup and your impressions. I don't know what to say about your type right now. The thing you said about having a primal image in mind reminded me of what Jung wrote about Ni and archetypal images. I wouldn't type off of that, just found it interesting. As for the painting, I thought it was an advertisement for "Rapt at Rappaport's." Bright, bold, but not interesting or intriguing. Understanding that it was the artist's visual impression of a piece of music makes it more interesting, but on its own, it's really not to me.

Aw, thanks so much squark! I think it definitely helped to have something to talk about in the video. The main problem I find with most videos of this kind are that people are kind of fishing around for what to talk about and there's a lot of "dead air." Glad you liked the video. Very interesting comment about Jung's version of Ni. It's been years since I read his stuff, but I remember thinking his descriptions fit me pretty well. Yeah, I thought the painting would work well as a marquee or a sign for a club or restaurant.

[Absurd]

Here's the painting I was talking about in the second video.

Bwhahaha, what the heck is that - I mean is that a monkey or an elephant? I can't tell.

[Codie]

From what i've read from your post on the forum, i can't see an issue with iei. I have the MOST trouble typing identicals tbh, i think it's because like you I base INFp's on myself - thats all i've got. If you're sure which type's your dual or your which is your conflictor that would clear things up immenseley, these relations are very strong & hard to mistake.

[Beautiful sky]

I typed you SEI or SLI by the way; definitely Ip temp.

[mu4]

I'm a misanthrope, not a curmudgeon. *shakes fist

As far as outgoing, I am pretty outgoing but I have my shy moments too. I tend to be more outgoing when I feel comfortable and rested.

Everyone was great , it was a fun time I can't wait to go back.

I think EII works for Baby from my interaction on the forum as well as IRL. I would say some of the same things about the missing of emotional/feeling queues from him since I wasn't really able to discern his thoughts and such.

In that sense I think me and glam were communicating a bit differently then Baby.

I also think that Baby goes through things in a rational fashion, from a basis from understanding/knowledge vs perceiving and taking satisfaction in just that. I won't go too much into that, but this video is a very rational and even analytical imo. Going quite in depth into the communication issues and sense of difference between each other.

Note that in my write up I completely avoid such topics and instead concentrate on what is preferable to me. Hookers and food and pulp fiction.

I must say I was pretty cruel to the artists, but I still appreciated their works. My favorite work was probably the one outside by Ai Wei Wei 12 Zodiacs, he's the guy that helped design the Bird's Nest in Beijing.

Ah Rapt at Rappaports, it's a interesting picture because when I saw it, I enjoyed it, I didn't really know what it's about. It's dynamic, a bit incomprehensible and yet it invoked a lot of thoughts in me, which I don't know if I had them or if I only have them in the analysis.

What Stuart Davis did in this period is cubist landscape, and Rapt is a landscape. Take a look at another work, Report from Rockport.



Take a look form his previous works and other works.




Now, I didn't know what Rapt at Rappaport had in it when I saw it, but the emotion it conveyed to me I do remember, and that was a sense of fun, improvisation and a good time was being had.

And this is the same as Jazz, which is not imo sophisticated(I think this terms was used in the video). Jazz is underground bars during prohibition, hookers, alchohol, vice and sin(everything I like) . There's also the sense of improvisation despite the countless hours of practice and dedication to the art, for the audience it's on the spot and down and dirty.

it is not music at all. It’s merely an irritation of the nerves of hearing, a sensual teasing of the strings of physical passion.

The picture and jazz is kinda of the same, it's a tease, to bigger movements which would unfold in the future.

[Animal]

Holy crap, lots of great stuff to respond to! I'm going to reply to them all instead of studying for my final. EDIT: Holy shit, it took me almost two hours to write all this, so most of you people better actually read and reply instead of just "Liking" it.

sooo i have to ask - based on your impressions of me and the "gap" between us, and of April (who you thought could be your identical), where do you see me type- and quadra-wise?

This will probably sound completely out of left field, but if you were just a random person whose self-typing I didn't know, I actually would have thought some sort of sensing type in a Fi quadra for you... possibly ESI or even SLI. This is just stereotypical mumbo-jumbo, but you have a much more "grounded" presence than I usually associate with Ni types, and you seemed to be more centered in the "real world" of things and people. Also, that "gap" may well have been literal: you spent most of the first day walking several paces behind us taking pictures. (BTW, I kind of want to see some of those pictures! The one you posted was beautiful, but you must have hundreds because every time I looked back, there you were with your camera in front of your face. )

But now I think Starfall might be onto something with the different enneagram types. It might also be a subtype difference. Most people seem to be seeing Fe-subtype for me. I know you said you were probably Fe-subtype, but you didn't seem as emotive as I expected. When I think of Fe-IEI, I think of Justin Timberlake (I know he's a dude, but I know girls like this, too): playful, emotive, warm with a somewhat soft disposition. You came across a bit more... serious? Well, less goofy, at any rate. And you had a more forceful presence.

Your vids are in dire need of a de-esser, so much sillibance scraping my ears

I get IXFp. You come off as E9-ish too.

Yeah, sorry about that. The weak microphone on my computer punches up the 6-7kHz frequencies, so everything ends up sounding tinnier and shriller than in person. Thanks for your typing thoughts. It's interesting how some Delta's are seeing EII and others are seeing mostly Fe, lol. I do think E9 works for me, although I secretly want to be a 4.

Hi Auvi,

I like your videos. I remembered reading your posts in the past and you always strike me as an interesting person with a good sense of humour. Your videos just cemented the impression I had of you so far. When I was watching your videos, the image of John Cusack actually crossed my mind. Anyway, I voted for Fe-INFp. You seem like a Ti/Fe subtype, and I am pretty certain that you are an Ethical type. You appeared like a pretty chilled and easy-going person as compared to an INFj.

Aw, thanks eunice! I've always enjoyed your posts as well. I like John Cusack. Also his sister Joan. She's hilarious. This makes two Deltas in a row that are saying Fe > Fi. What you say of INFjs vs. INFps aligns with my impression of these types, which why I've been a bit confused about the EII typings. I think INFjs are much more conscientious and serious than I see myself.

Your painting have something kandinsky-esque, if you permit I inflate your ego.



incredible, not that its especially my dual too, but I get often looks from these kind of girl (speaking about the personnality of course)...

ahah! Well, the painting isn't mine, so I can't take credit for it. But, yeah, I think Nadia G. is incredible, too.

Baby! <3 I really wish I could have met you all! I feel like such a d bag for not going.

As for your type, I could see you as my identical & have always been able to relate to your post. Heck, You're probably one of my favorite forum members. I was thinking the other day that you could possibly be an example of an IEI enneagram 9, which could make you come off as more Delta like. Most IEI's tend to be 4's & come off as more sullen & mysterious, which is why when you see IEI's of other enneagram types, it always seem a bit different. For example, I thought Bullets&Doves (who is IEI enneagram 6) was EIE for the longest time because his manner is just so different to my own, but I later realize that he came off that way simply because his enneagram typing is different.

Of course, EII is a possibility as well. I'd have to actually have more interaction to decide on that one. If you are a Delta NF type, I actually think IEE would probably be a better fit for you.

btw that painting is also not to my taste. I'm also not sure if art is always type related. My own style tends to be a lot more flowing and detailed.

Yay, Starfall! I was hoping to get your opinion, because I identify a lot with your posts as well. Also, when you post pictures/stories about your friends/social group, they always seem like people I could get along with.

Yeah, I think you're on to something with the Enneagram difference. I'm not really well-versed in that theory, but from reading the descriptions and taking the tests, I think 9 works. Can enneagram types change? Up until college, I would definitely see myself as an E4, actually. I was very arrogant, introverted, and thought I was this tortured artist, lol. I identified a lot with Kurt Cobain... almost to a morbid level. Nowadays, I still think of myself as an "artist", but I don't take myself nearly as seriously. After years of depression and anxiety where I was socially very isolated, I've kind of been trying to make up for lost time and make friends again. Probably a big fear of mine is being alone, becuase I know if I'm alone too long, I'll sink back into rumination. When I see E4s on those enneagram forums, my reaction to them is: "Get the fuck over yourselves, you pretentious, self-involved wankers. Unless your name is Friedriche Nietzsche, or Rainer Maria Rilke, or John Frusciante, or Pable Picasso, or Maria Callas, or someone with some actual talent, get over yourselves!!" (Apologies if you're a 4, lol. I've seen your art. It's amazing. You have talent and reason to be arrogant!)

Yeah, I actually think IEE would make more sense for me than EII, if it's between those two.

I also think that Baby goes through things in a rational fashion, from a basis from understanding/knowledge vs perceiving and taking satisfaction in just that. I won't go too much into that, but this video is a very rational and even analytical imo. Going quite in depth into the communication issues and sense of difference between each other.

Couldn't think be Ni vs. Ne, though?

And this is the same as Jazz, which is not imo sophisticated(I think this terms was used in the video). Jazz is underground bars during prohibition, hookers, alchohol, vice and sin(everything I like) . There's also the sense of improvisation despite the countless hours of practice and dedication to the art, for the audience it's on the spot and down and dirty.

Okay, you got me started... God help you. I think you're thinking of primarily of swing, which was indeed a subset of jazz, but I think jazz is more than that and was indeed sophisticated. Jazz was the cosmopolitanization of the humbler, grittier blues and the purer African-American spiritual, fusing them with the European orchestral sensibility. If you study jazz harmony, it's clear that this stuff rivals Schoenberg's dodecaphony in musical sophistication and erudition. If you want to make a classical musician feel humbled, sit him next to a jazz musician to discuss music theory, lol. It may sound unchained and raw, but the chord structure and progression proceed on a sublimely deliberate way. Compare a blues balladier like Leadbelly (AABA ballad form, with a repetitive chord progression), to John Coltrane's take on Rodgers' and Hammerstein's "My Favorite Things." I like both, but you cannot deny that the Coltrane stuff is much more musically sophisticated. And then listen to Brad Mehldau's version, which to me is musically orgasmic. There's a sublime attention harmonic and melodic detail, subtlety and form there. Yes, there's spontaneity and improvisation, but the wilderness is "civilized." Or look at Duke Ellington's arrangement of Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite. Tchaikovsky was a master of harmony -- admired by Stravinsky, Shostakovitch, idolized by Glazunov. Ellington took one of his most harmonically inventive works, and reworked it in incredible ways -- the result is vital, sexy, but also musically sophisticated, full of coy musical nods to the originals.

And look at the way Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, and Billie Holiday dressed. Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong... those cats wore TUXEDOS. Jazz has it's own aristocracy: "Lady" Holliday, the "Duke" Ellington, the "Count" Basie, "Lord" Jellyroll Morton, and Nina Simone was the "high priestess of soul." They did not think of themselves as a burlesque, down and dirty entertainment; these are people who understood the link between music and the heart on a very high playing field. It was a culture they took pride in. And, to me, it doesn't look like what Stuart Davis painted. It's darker and subtler. It's more maroon, midnight black, navy blue, and champagne than the colors he used. It's more art deco, more rounded and flowing than cubism.

BUT probably even some actual jazz musicians would disagree with me. That's just how I see the music.

Starfall, you echoed a lot of my own thoughts there...

I'm not as versed in enneagram but I was going to say enneagram 9's might be hard to type just because they are so great at getting along with people of all types, and that might be why it might be so challenging to type you, Baby. I do agree that i've found IEI 9's to be very nice people (isn't that redbaron's type too? i could be mistaken).

The one thing that really sticks in my mind still though that supports Si-valuing to me is what Baby said about how he judges a painting by how it makes him feel. That just sounds like THE definition of Si to me. If people really think Baby is Fe-creative, I vote SEI > IEI.

I did also consider the possibility that Baby might be IEE... i was thinking whether to mention that or not, but looks like you also had that thought Starfall. I dont think that's out of the question.

I did consider IEE, actually. See my reply in the big wall of text that is post #2-.

interesting how this guy strikes me as IXFp as well

Yeah, I would have typed that guy some Fe-Ip as well.

Thanks for the insights Starfall! You are right... I guess there are many ways to "feel" a painting. I guess a follow up question to Baby-- what do you mean when you say you look at how a painting makes you feel? like what is going through your mind when you assess that?

What I really mean is... does it evoke memories of my past or intimations of my future? Those "primal images" oftentimes are very striking visual memories left in me from childhood, that I often try to recapture in my present life. One of them is this bleak row streetlamps along the riverside in Philadelphia where I grew up, walking back home late at night from the 4th of July fireworks with my dad. It was dark, it was quiet, it was vaguely threatening, almost like something out of a film noir: just the sound of our footsteps and the pallid light of the streetlamps. That image has etched itself in my mind, and almost feels like a part of my identity. Some music takes me back there (a lot of Jeff Buckley's stuff), and visual art, too. I also have visions of a future that are often mirrors/projections of those images of the past. And that is what strikes up the most intense emotions in me: if it feels like it resonates with those aspects of my identity -- like something unvoiced or unvoiceable inside of me is being given articulation. Hope this makes sense.

Thanks guys. You're right that I'm able to get along and have fun with almost anybody if that's what I want to do. I felt the most similar to Auvi, as well, compared to hkkmr and glam. As expected, it was most comfortable and informative to speak with you guys individually, one-on-one, because it's easier to meet one another on a congruent level. With Auvi, I found myself being more open, casual, and focused on fun. With hkkmr and glam, I felt like we were more focused on discussing different topics, both intellectual and personal. When hkkmr, glam, and I went back to the hotel for drinky, I felt like it was easier to get to know them in that type of setting. I tried getting a different type than EII for myself out of hkkmr for juicy drama purposes, so LII as a second option and that I'm weird and hard to type were suggested. I can't really say how they reacted to me vs. Auvi; what say you hkkmr and glam?

Yay, April! Thanks for elaborating on what it was like on your end. I'm also curious if glam and hkkmr saw you differently from me. And if it's juicy drama you want, I dub us both EIEs. We can be evil Betas together! Actually, if I didn't know your self-typing, I definitely would have typed you as my identical. You're kind of what I imagined as the prototypical female Fe-IEI. Presence-wise, you have an etheral quality, and you were incredibly skillful at using humor to diffuse and smoothe out any potentially awkward moments/situation.

I watched bits of the videos in the OP, and the person you kinda remind me of is Tereg. I think he self-typed IEE. Anyways, my vague impression of you is XXFp, and Si/Ne > Se/Ni quadra. Your posts are usually heavy on Ni, so I'd favor an iNtuitive typing.

Thanks Parkster! I remember tereg. I think I see the similarity, at least physically. Why do you say Si/Ne > Ni/Se?

[mu4]

Okay, you got me started... God help you. I think you're thinking of primarily of swing, which was indeed a subset of jazz, but I think jazz is more than that and was indeed sophisticated. Jazz was the cosmopolitanization of the humbler, grittier blues and the purer African-American spiritual, fusing them with the European orchestral sensibility. If you study jazz harmony, it's clear that this stuff rivals Schoenberg's dodecaphony in musical sophistication and erudition. If you want to make a classical musician feel humbled, sit him next to a jazz musician to discuss music theory, lol. It may sound unchained and raw, but the chord structure and progression proceed on a sublimely deliberate way. Compare a blues balladier like Leadbelly (AABA ballad form, with a repetitive chord progression), to John Coltrane's take on Rodgers' and Hammerstein's "My Favorite Things." I like both, but you cannot deny that the Coltrane stuff is much more musically sophisticated. And then listen to Brad Mehldau's version, which to me is musically orgasmic. There's a sublime attention harmonic and melodic detail, subtlety and form there. Yes, there's spontaneity and improvisation, but the wilderness is "civilized." Or look at Duke Ellington's arrangement of Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite. Tchaikovsky was a master of harmony -- admired by Stravinsky, Shostakovitch, idolized by Glazunov. Ellington took one of his most harmonically inventive works, and reworked it in incredible ways -- the result is vital, sexy, but also musically sophisticated, full of coy musical nods to the originals.

As far as sophistication, I don't think their music abilities were any lessor, these were probably some of the best musicians of their era. But Jazz music is still music made by people who probably couldn't walk into the parties, clubs and lounges they played as guests or customers. They could put on that Tuxedo but in segregated America, these were still second class citizens. In this world their music was not just geared towards high society but was geared for a democratic, classless, raceless audience.

I wasn't really talking about the music and I was talking about the sense of improvisation. Let me note, I was being pretty specific, there is a kind of deliberate calculation in artistic spontaneity which leads to this sense of improvisation. I think this way you can keep the core lines and rhythm intact without losing this sense of raw emotional energy. Note that Stuart Davis's art is very similar to this and as you noted, he was influence by jazz.

And look at the way Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, and Billie Holiday dressed. Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong... those cats wore TUXEDOS. Jazz has it's own aristocracy: "Lady" Holliday, the "Duke" Ellington, the "Count" Basie, "Lord" Jellyroll Morton, and Nina Simone was the "high priestess of soul." They did not think of themselves as a burlesque, down and dirty entertainment; these are people who understood the link between music and the heart on a very high playing field. It was a culture they took pride in. And, to me, it doesn't look like what Stuart Davis painted. It's darker and subtler. It's more maroon, midnight black, navy blue, and champagne than the colors he used. It's more art deco, more rounded and flowing than cubism.

This is absolutely not burlesque, and not amateur. But down and dirty, of course it is, the aristocracy is the dirtiest of them all, nevertheless, this music was formed playing smokey boozy lounges, mob bars and initially in front of mostly black audiences. Duke Ellington was a commercial sign painter, Louis Armstrong hauled coal and helped form his music talents in the deliciously named New Orleans Home for Colored Waifs, many of these people worked menial jobs and did bar gigs and dance halls, this music wasn't made in the middle of a symphony hall. They would have brushed shoulders with the pushers, pimps, hookers, booze, drugs and vice of their day.

I would say if anything Jazz is not, it's Art Deco, which imo is based in symmetry, repetition and rationality and Jazz if anything is asymmetric. Ayn Rand not Nina Simone, who is all magic, voodoo and soul.

I am not really thinking of swing, because to me swing as we know it is more commercialized endeavor which basically took Black music and made it mass market for white audience. What I'm talking about is the sense of improvisation rather then real improvisation, which is a rational event choreographed. It's not like Stuart Davis's compositions change either.

I'm more talking about Bebop and it's use of of syncopation and dissonance. Charlie Parker was also a heroin addict. I think a lot of music theory get caught up in the sterile analysis of music and lose sight of the messy dirty business that is music and musicians.

[Animal]

As far as sophistication, I don't think their music abilities were any lessor, these were probably some of the best musicians of their era. But Jazz music is still music made by people who probably couldn't walk into the parties, clubs and lounges they played as guests or customers. They could put on that Tuxedo but in segregated America, these were still second class citizens. In this world their music was not just geared towards high society but was geared for a democratic, classless, raceless audience.

I wasn't really talking about the music and I was talking about the sense of improvisation. Let me note, I was being pretty specific, there is a kind of deliberate calculation in artistic spontaneity which leads to this sense of improvisation. I think this way you can keep the core lines and rhythm intact without losing this sense of raw emotional energy. Note that Stuart Davis's art is very similar to this and as you noted, he was influence by jazz.

Okay, I don't disagree with this. That's exactly what makes jazz so exciting and gripping. It's like a falconer releasing a falcon into the air where it soars feverishly and freely, but then returns back to the falconer's arm. Jazz, to me, is music, as I explain below.

This is absolutely not burlesque, and not amateur. But down and dirty, of course it is, the aristocracy is the dirtiest of them all, nevertheless, this music was formed playing smokey boozy lounges, mob bars and initially in front of mostly black audiences. Duke Ellington was a commercial sign painter, Louis Armstrong hauled coal and helped form his music talents in the deliciously named New Orleans Home for Colored Waifs, many of these people worked menial jobs and did bar gigs and dance halls, this music wasn't made in the middle of a symphony hall. They would have brushed shoulders with the pushers, pimps, hookers, booze, drugs and vice of their day.

I would say if anything Jazz is not, it's Art Deco, which imo is based in symmetry, repetition and rationality and Jazz if anything is asymmetric. Ayn Rand not Nina Simone, who is all magic, voodoo and soul.

I am not really thinking of swing, because to me swing as we know it is more commercialized endeavor which basically took Black music and made it mass market for white audience. What I'm talking about is the sense of improvisation rather then real improvisation, which is a rational event choreographed. It's not like Stuart Davis's compositions change either.

I'm more talking about Bebop and it's use of of syncopation and dissonance. Charlie Parker was also a heroin addict. I think a lot of music theory get caught up in the sterile analysis of music and lose sight of the messy dirty business that is music and musicians.

I'm definitely not going to deny that African-Americans did not live in poverty, that there wasn't pervasive drug use, prostitution, crime, etc. But, I guess where I would take issue with what you're saying is that all of that is the result of racism. That was stuff that was inflicted on them from the outside and, as a result, that they found themselves inside of. They didn't see it that way from the inside out, though. Although racism and segregation may have relegated these people to second class (or third class) status, the music they were making was not any less sophisticated and subtle. I don't really see that subtlety in Davis' work. It looks very static to me. Jazz is anything but static. And if jazz has it's "Minnie the Moocher" with references to drug use and prostitution, in Europe, Puccini was writing an opera about a courtesan (La Traviata), Bizet about a sexpot gypsy (Carmen), Stravinsky composed a ballet about pagan sacrifice (Rite of Spring)... jazz -- like opera -- was a language they used. And it's a poetic, extremely flexible, but not plainspoken language. The plainspoken musical language was the blues, or maybe Tin Pan Alley. Jazz was something more articulate. (And, FWIW, I see music theory as just linguistics -- a way to study the language of music.)

The best modern-day (or close to modern) analog I can think of is probably the "ball" culture that developed in the urban gay community in the 80s. Like in Paris Is Burning. These were the most marginalized of the marginalized -- black, Hispanic, Asian gay and transgendered men during the rise of AIDS. Yet they formed their own "Aristocracy" -- in some ways a parody of the privileged world around them, but in other ways, a way of attaining for themselves some measure of dignity and pride in their community. I think jazz was the same way. In D.C. U Street was once known as "Black Broadway" -- with rare exceptions, blacks were barred from the "legitimate" stages, so they adopted their own: the Lincoln Theatre on that street is a thing of beauty and dignity. Those musicians may have been poor and working menial jobs, but that doesn't make their music menial. They may have rubbed shoulders with the hookers and pushers, but they did so out of necessity. Drug use and prostitution were prevalent in the upper classes as well -- it's just that they afford to hide it, keeping it clandestine and behind closed doors, and dressing it up behind velvet curtains. Black people didn't have that privilege. Jazz was informed by all of this, but it has a dignity about it.

And I didn't mean to associate jazz with the Ayn Rand school of art deco (that bitch misappropriated art deco), but rather the colors and the litheness of the figures.

[mu4]

I'm definitely not going to deny that African-Americans did not live in poverty, that there wasn't pervasive drug use, prostitution, crime, etc. But, I guess where I would take issue with what you're saying is that all of that is the result of racism. That was stuff that was inflicted on them from the outside and, as a result, that they found themselves inside of. They didn't see it that way from the inside out, though. Although racism and segregation may have relegated these people to second class (or third class) status, the music they were making was not any less sophisticated and subtle. I don't really see that subtlety in Davis' work. It looks very static to me. Jazz is anything but static. And if jazz has it's "Minnie the Moocher" with references to drug use and prostitution, in Europe, Puccini was writing an opera about a courtesan (La Traviata), Bizet about a sexpot gypsy (Carmen), Stravinsky composed a ballet about pagan sacrifice (Rite of Spring)... jazz -- like opera -- was a language they used. And it's a poetic, extremely flexible, but not plainspoken language. The plainspoken musical language was the blues, or maybe Tin Pan Alley. Jazz was something more articulate. (And, FWIW, I see music theory as just linguistics -- a way to study the language of music.)

The best modern-day (or close to modern) analog I can think of is probably the "ball" culture that developed in the urban gay community in the 80s. Like in Paris Is Burning. These were the most marginalized of the marginalized -- black, Hispanic, Asian gay and transgendered men during the rise of AIDS. Yet they formed their own "Aristocracy" -- in some ways a parody of the privileged world around them, but in other ways, a way of attaining for themselves some measure of dignity and pride in their community. I think jazz was the same way. In D.C. U Street was once known as "Black Broadway" -- with rare exceptions, blacks were barred from the "legitimate" stages, so they adopted their own: the Lincoln Theatre on that street is a thing of beauty and dignity. Those musicians may have been poor and working menial jobs, but that doesn't make their music menial. They may have rubbed shoulders with the hookers and pushers, but they did so out of necessity. Drug use and prostitution were prevalent in the upper classes as well -- it's just that they afford to hide it, keeping it clandestine and behind closed doors, and dressing it up behind velvet curtains. Black people didn't have that privilege. Jazz was informed by all of this, but it has a dignity about it.

And I didn't mean to associate jazz with the Ayn Rand school of art deco (that bitch misappropriated art deco), but rather the colors and the litheness of the figures.

As I said, this is not menial, their music certainly is not menial. It's subtle, nuanced, of high technique. But I simply do not care about sophistication, I don't think the people who did Jazz cared about sophistication, they cared about music a lot more then sophistication.

In the perception of social class, sophistication can link with concepts such as status, privilege and superiority.

It is only in this sense, Jazz is not sophisticated, it is anti-sophisticated and in a sense a rebellion against these ideas. The way Jazz was viewed by some of the sophisticated set was that it was vulgar, stupid and crude as I noted earlier the commentary by Henry van Dyke.

These individuals did not make their music for high society initially and their music was made for the people around them to enjoy.

don't really see what is static about Stuart Davis, I would say he's one of the less static artist that we saw but this is subjective and I'm not really going to go in to it. Suffice it to say, I think his art is subtle and nuanced, going through the changes he went thru in his career, he is very much at the forefront of pop art. I don't think he's one of the great artists however, but good. It's a bit funny actually because he uses words/symbols and such in his works but his later works he had morphed these so they were not easily recognizable yet still able to subconsciously influence you. I'm generally against this, especially when it's overt. In Rapt at Rappaport's there are letters and lettering, as well as a cross or plus sign and and symbol, he does it in a way that it defies expectations but still conveys the meaning at a subconscious level. It is Impressionism and Expressionism which uses clever illusions and abstract techniques to create a gestalt in the mind rather then just pain on canvas, it is a tease as I said. It's the same as say, Nina Simone use of silence to convey drama in a musical performance.

I don't know about doing that out of necessity, people rub shoulders with hookers and pushers sometimes because they like it.

I agree that Jazz was a form of identity seeking by a oppressed culture, as is rap, hip hop, rock, etc. In the same way, it's often viewed as unsophisticated, vulgar, crude.

As far as La traviata, this is based off of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady_of_the_Camellias which is writen by Alexander Dumas fils, who's a bastard son to Alexander Dumas pere.

Dumas pere was a mulatto and a person well known for his interaction with both the upper and lower class, being fully accepted in neither. But there was a great deal of influence from father to son. The subject of class, color, and social injustice is deeply personal to Dumas fils.

However, he did the opera for the money.

[Park]

Why do you say Si/Ne > Ni/Se?

Because you seem composed, more down to earth, and slightly less abstract/mystical than how most Ni IPs appear (See video #1). And from what I can gather, your emotionality seems more subdued than that of Se-seeking types (See video #2).

1) Ni-INFp (Note how he talks about life, seeing it as a journey, etc)


2) Fe-INFp (I couldn't find the interview I was looking for, but I think it will serve the purpose)

[Park]

Oh, and everyone who likes jazz is in my qaudra.

[Animal]

Because you seem composed, more down to earth, and slightly less abstract/mystical than how most Ni IPs appear (See video #1). And from what I can gather, your emotionality seems more subdued than that of Se-seeking types (See video #2).

1) Ni-INFp (Note how he talks about life, seeing it as a journey, etc)


2) Fe-INFp (I couldn't find the interview I was looking for, but I think it will serve the purpose)

Very interesting. I see what you mean. I never thought of Usher as IEI, but I can see it.

Oh, and everyone who likes jazz is in my qaudra.

Who can argue with this logic?

[glam]

Thanks guys. You're right that I'm able to get along and have fun with almost anybody if that's what I want to do. I felt the most similar to Auvi, as well, compared to hkkmr and glam. As expected, it was most comfortable and informative to speak with you guys individually, one-on-one, because it's easier to meet one another on a congruent level. With Auvi, I found myself being more open, casual, and focused on fun. With hkkmr and glam, I felt like we were more focused on discussing different topics, both intellectual and personal. When hkkmr, glam, and I went back to the hotel for drinky, I felt like it was easier to get to know them in that type of setting. I tried getting a different type than EII for myself out of hkkmr for juicy drama purposes, so LII as a second option and that I'm weird and hard to type were suggested. I can't really say how they reacted to me vs. Auvi; what say you hkkmr and glam?

"drinky"

i would say that i did notice the connection between you and Auvi vs me and hkkmr. in his video Auvi mentioned how he prefers communication involving "knowing glances" and things like that - i believe both you and Auvi often interacted this way. it's more of a subtle kind of communication - a "silent" way to display feelings, and show disposition towards something, rather than being blatantly and openly emotional about it. it's something i generally associate more with Fi types than Fe types.

i found you to be a warm, more laid-back variant of EII. some can be a bit stiff, but you were not that way at all. you were very pleasant, fun, and easy to be around (as was Auvi!)

i would agree that having some drinks loosened everyone a up a bit, and it was fun!

i forgot to tell you - you have some of the prettiest eyes i've ever seen. i believe it was on Sunday that i especially noticed this, because your makeup brought them out even more

This will probably sound completely out of left field, but if you were just a random person whose self-typing I didn't know, I actually would have thought some sort of sensing type in a Fi quadra for you... possibly ESI or even SLI. This is just stereotypical mumbo-jumbo, but you have a much more "grounded" presence than I usually associate with Ni types, and you seemed to be more centered in the "real world" of things and people. Also, that "gap" may well have been literal: you spent most of the first day walking several paces behind us taking pictures. (BTW, I kind of want to see some of those pictures! The one you posted was beautiful, but you must have hundreds because every time I looked back, there you were with your camera in front of your face. )

But now I think Starfall might be onto something with the different enneagram types. It might also be a subtype difference. Most people seem to be seeing Fe-subtype for me. I know you said you were probably Fe-subtype, but you didn't seem as emotive as I expected. When I think of Fe-IEI, I think of Justin Timberlake (I know he's a dude, but I know girls like this, too): playful, emotive, warm with a somewhat soft disposition. You came across a bit more... serious? Well, less goofy, at any rate. And you had a more forceful presence.

it's interesting that you see me as "grounded" and that you see me as having a "forceful" presence. i don't think i've been described this way before. as for groundedness, yes, i try to be aware of the world around me, so that i can strive to be sensible and not ignorant about things. i don't want to feel disconnected from the world - i felt that way for years - and i was depressed all the time.

may i ask what is "forceful" about me?

i can be very goofy - it's just not a side i show very easily i guess.

it seems we are both using ourselves as the benchmark against which we judge whether someone else is IEI or not - since we both recognize the fact that we are different, we both suggested different types for each other i have to say that in this case, i'm not too convinced that subtypes or enneagram sufficiently explain away the differences for me, at least not enough to explain why two IEIs would feel this much dissimilarity between each other regarding preferred methods of communication and other socionically relevant information.

i still think i am probably IEI-Fe, though if i recall correctly, April said that i seem closer to ILI rather than SEI.

as for my DC photos (thank you for the compliment!), i'll see if i can find more decent ones, and perhaps post them in the meetup thread.

[Suz]

in his video Auvi mentioned how he prefers communication involving "knowing glances" and things like that - i believe both you and Auvi often interacted this way. it's more of a subtle kind of communication - a "silent" way to display feelings, and show disposition towards something, rather than being blatantly and openly emotional about it. it's something i generally associate more with Fi types than Fe types.

That comment by Baby also stuck out to me. i've also found this to be an Fi-valuing feature, and part of why i lean delta NF for him.

[Animal]

My understanding of Fi vs. Fe is this:

Fi = internal statics of fields; I see Fi as a focus on static “attitude” of liking or disliking, or a judgment/conclusions one comes to about a person. Expression of Fi manifests itself more in the content of what is spoken – the “what is said” rather than the “how.” Those with Fi-PoLR tend to be insecure about others’ attitudes towards them, overall; they tend to need physical shows of affection (Fe) rather than words (Fi).

Fe = external dynamics of objects; I see Fe as a focus on the dynamic flow of conversation. Expression of Fe manifests in the “how it’s said” rather than “what is said” – it’s based on mood, cadence, tone, rhythm of conversation, and music of speech, etc. It’s also known as “prosody.” Those with Fe-PoLR tend to be insecure in how others are reacting to them, from moment to moment; they tend to feel more secure with explicit words of affection (Fi), because they aren’t as confident at interpreting non-verbal cues (Fe).

I consider myself kind of incompetent at words of affection. It comes out stilted and feels like empty words, and the people who I feel affection for would probably look at me like I’m a freak if I tried. LMAO. I’d rather do it non-verbally: through playful insults, conveying it through looks, laughter, as peck on the forehead, a head laid down on the shoulder, hugs, affectionate punches in the guts. I try to convey it in my physical mannerisms, voice, and posture. Beta STs are pretty good at playing this game, I find. They’ll play along with you: punch you back, curse you out with a grin on their face, wrestle you, lol.

The EIIs and IEEs I know are much more comfortable just saying “I love you” verbally, and aren’t as interested in expressing it through physical manifestation. They say it very simply and without scruples. And from what I’ve observed, Delta STs are receptive to that unadorned verbalized affection, and aren’t very comfortable/adept at feeding back the nonverbal playful stuff; they’d much rather do it more simply with an arm around the shoulder, or via giving presents, or being helpful around the house, or whatnot. They are not comfortable playing the Fe game.

Does this make sense to anyone, or am I just crazy? lol.

[Gilly]

Ummm...hkkmr is kind of a bot in some ways, I don't think having that observation nor disagreeing/arguing with him is indicative of being Fi ego.

[Gilly]

I almost want to go with this hkkmr as LSE thing.

[mu4]

I almost want to go with this hkkmr as LSE thing.

It would make snatching up April and Agarina more fun. But I happen to get along fantastically with most self-typed IEIs.

[Gilly]

No.

[anndelise]

@Baby
fwiw, I don't respond well to the way hkkmr 'argues', either. It often feels too much like he's going off on a monologue. He also doesn't seem interested in figuring out where a misunderstanding might have occurred and adjusting for it, instead just continuing onto whatever path his mind was pre-set on. And I've had consistent problems with him taking things out of context, and then adding in things as if I, or the other person, was arguing those additions rather than what they were actually arguing about. Arguing with him requires being decent enough at logical connections and patience to sit there and pull his monologues apart to find/show him the errors of context/interpretation made...which I'll never have the ability/patience for. I've found that it's just easier for me to not even bother engaging him in even the simplest of conversation, because even simple ones turn into some bullshit non-contextually related monologue.

(note: this is not to suggest in any way that I'm "better" at arguing or other, I have plenty of faults. But it most definitely feels like Ti polr hits when he does this shit.... in that it requires extended ability/valuing working with Ti just to have a conversation with the dude.)

[ashlesha]

i'm liking iei for you better than eii, especially if you wrote those romance style blurbs.

i don't think i've seen fen or raver really being less than tolerant of anyone on here and the delta nfs i talk to here are not fans of hkkmr (then again, that includes radio).

[Animal]

@Baby
fwiw, I don't respond well to the way hkkmr 'argues', either. It often feels too much like he's going off on a monologue. He also doesn't seem interested in figuring out where a misunderstanding might have occurred and adjusting for it, instead just continuing onto whatever path his mind was pre-set on. And I've had consistent problems with him taking things out of context, and then adding in things as if I, or the other person, was arguing those additions rather than what they were actually arguing about. Arguing with him requires being decent enough at logical connections and patience to sit there and pull his monologues apart to find/show him the errors of context/interpretation made...which I'll never have the ability/patience for. I've found that it's just easier for me to not even bother engaging him in even the simplest of conversation, because even simple ones turn into some bullshit non-contextually related monologue.

(note: this is not to suggest in any way that I'm "better" at arguing or other, I have plenty of faults. But it most definitely feels like Ti polr hits when he does this shit.... in that it requires extended ability/valuing working with Ti just to have a conversation with the dude.)

Thanks ann, that's pretty much exactly how I felt about the whole exchange. (See above.) Although it's kind of hard to think it's Ti-related for me. I never have disagreements like this with ILEs. Just to be sure my concept of an ILE is actually an ILE and not some other type, this dude is ILE, right? Because, if so, I get along with these sorts of people really well and it's what I thought hkkmr was more like in person.

You were the one who wrote those? Holy crap, I had no idea. I've always related very strongly to those particular victim/aggressor descriptions. I think they describe the dynamics of the IEI - SLE duality very well.

I can't see an EII writing those at all.

Yeah, that was me, lol. I deleted the original threads, so I guess people started to think they were just translations from one of the Russians, lol. Those descriptions basically describe my most intense, satisfying relationships.

[Park]

Ledisi is great, yeah. More of a modern RnB/neo-soul style singer though.

[Park]

Downloading this album... NOW.

[Animal]

Downloading this album... NOW.

I haven't got the full album, but some individual songs from it and I love how she "soulifies" up some of the more classic stuff, like "Autumn Leaves."

She's a bit chubby, but super cute. Just look at those eyes! And her puppy smile.

Yeah, I love her eyes, and watching her sing. She has this really sassy quality about her.

[Park]

Damn, I love me some black wimminz...



^ Yeah cool, I'll take the other one.

[Park]

Yeah, she's a fine sista. Gonna listen to her album in my car tomorrow.

[Absurd]

here is the cunt option>