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Thread: A new approach to comparing types

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    Default A new approach to comparing types

    The same function will have a different nature for each type. This approach compares the same functions for different types.

    Here is an example of comparing INTj with INTp. Please let me know which function descriptions below are most helpful and clear in telling you the difference between INTjs and INTps.


    INTj
    Structural logic knows how to logically and convincingly present its thoughts. Are constructed diagrams and concepts, it is clearly separated the main thing from the secondary. After developing general system, it defines concretely it, draws near practice. Clean theoretization, philosophizing, the torn from the life reasonings - not for it. The correctness of system is determined on its internal logical consistency. It easily modifies the formal framework of system. It prefers the compact, maximally compressed information, although it can unroll it to the necessary volume. It sees well the possibilities of systems, formal models and concepts. It gives objective, frequently impartial evaluation to their potential. Detail knows how to connect with whole.

    INTp
    Structural logic work makes strictly on the technology, it is slow and it is clear, investigating all details. It is scrupulous and meticulous to the pedantry. Business activity and diligence are inherent in it only in the system of the formal relations, when reigns order and performer discipline. It is attempted to have a kit of necessary tools for fulfilling the work both in private life and in the production. It loves to take anything into the debt. It is independent and self-sufficient. It is law-abiding and operating. It does not have dodginess and criminal tendencies. In the matters it is reliable, it conducts honest game.


    INTj
    The intuition of time feels its dependence on the lapse of time. It comes in time to the encounters and the measures. It is proud of its punctuality and organization. It knows how so to calculate its forces in order the outlined work to finish accurately to the period assigned. However, at the beginning of work usually it approaches with the retardation; therefore nearer toward the end accelerates, because of what the volume or the quality of work suffers. It searches for such methods of labor, which make it possible to economize time. Greatly it does not love, when time is expended uselessly. It prevents about its employment, about the presence of many matters, which cannot be put off. Above it rules the fate, which it cannot break in two. Only those matters in it succeed, which it begins in proper time. It rapidly forgets past failures, but also from future not anything good.

    INTp
    Intuition of time keen observer after the flow of life. It thinly notices details and hardly the planned tendencies. It explains, what reasons led to the existing consequences. It is submerged in the past, the repetitive phenomena are studied. Because of the associatively organized memory and the love for the knowledge he is frequently scholar. Contradictions and actual errors in positions and opinions are revealed well. Possessing a philosophical turn of mind, it knows how to produce the impression of wise and man of vision. It is careful in decision making. It proceeds from the fact that it is necessary to slightly anticipate events. The safe version of actions is always selected.


    INTj
    Business logic evaluates well the prospects of new undertakings and enterprises. It advises, as to fix the unusual daring matter, that it is necessary to undertake for its success. However, itself by efficiency and enterprise is not characterized by. It kolebletsya in the business activity, for long he thinks to something being decided before. Therefore first it is too careful and inactive, then, on the contrary, suddenly goes to the risk, hoping for the luck. In actual labor first it is thorough and it refines everything, then it hurries faster to finish it and to approach the following work. Its damp result does not confuse: if must, subsequently it returns back and it will alter. In it the region interesting he wants to know, as people act, on which technologies they work. On the basis of this information it decides how to act very. But it rapidly loses the acquired work habits.

    INTp
    Business logic in the mind checks the logic of actions and expenditure of resources, as if reducing the balance of useful and useless. The aim is to find the shortest and most advantageous path target. It is thrifty in the rotation with the money. It knows how to make reserves. Incomes constantly are checked. It searches for places and methods of advantageous financial investments. Before beginning work, thoroughly thinks over its technology, and also is gathered entire participating to the matter information at the current moment. It directs its business efforts to the creation of steady structures. Tracks state of affairs in it I interesting region it knows how with the benefit to use the accumulated information. Kh|orosho is oriented in the changes on the market for goods and services, it starts card indexes, data bases, archives, collections.


    INTj
    The intuition of possibilities attempts to improve or to supplement any theory or development. Alternative ideas do not slip off from its attention. It persistently completes the passed components it of the system interesting. It possesses capability for the generation of ideas, a brainstorm. It thinks very independently. After being dismantled in the problem, it advances the fundamentally new solutions. Ideas to it come intuitively - on the guess. Logic for it only the method of the formulation of the intuitively obtained information. It is capable to be dismantled at the intricate, obscure problem. It will intuitively find the concealed interrelations. A deficiency in the facts will be replaced with imagination. Increasingly more deeply it penetrates the subject of a study.

    INTp
    The intuition of possibilities survives because its information and intellectual abilities rarely give to expected result much, but to devise anything very is difficult. The prospects for new undertakings and daring ideas skeptically are evaluated. Presents thing zaputanneye, than they there is in reality. Although it can move hope in those despairing and disappointed. It is attempted to try itself in the different types of activity in order to prove its abilities. However, thoroughly developed personalities from it usually is not obtained. With the pleasure are studied all novelties in it the sphere interesting. Knows how to find a new use, it would seem, to served its things.


    INTj
    Ethics of relations reticent person. To it it is very difficult to adjust relations with the people. Is strained above itself in order to behave affably, to come into close contact. It hides its personal life from the strangers. It does not love unasked guests, it does not know how to engage them. In the contact it is very careful. Conversation is supported if and only if it concerns those meant for it by the fact. It values the already prevailing relations. It persistently preserves that system of relations, with which svyksya. will not begin to vomit the fixed relations, but also not it will be caught for the relations, which eliminated themselves. It is indifferent to the criticism from the side. It does not fear negative relation to itself. It is internally stopped up with the unknown or incomprehensible to it people, he does not feel as itself with them news.

    INTp
    The ethics of relations its emotional state depends on that how it includes those surrounding. It feels itself depressed, if to it is not turned attention, in no way they react to its proposals. In its poor mood it is not necessary to comfort or to cheer. It is better to leave in private with its thoughts and to manifest indirect sympathy. In the contact with the unknown it knows how to be polite, news itself vospitanno is intelligent. It possesses diplomatic features. It attempts to agree on interests of all parties. In order to tie more close relations, it ostrit, plays, behaves sufficiently raskovanno. However, if partner does not react, he ceases attempts at the rapprochement.


    INTj
    Sensorika of sensations in private life is modest, agreeable to be satisfied by the minimum of conveniences. However, the efficient concern about its health and comfort raises structure, tunes to the optimistic harmony. When its everyday and material problems are solved, its energy grows - it starts for the solution of those problems, which were postponed until the better time. It attempts to dress harmoniously, without the pretentiousness and the artificial adornments. However, its style finds not immediately. It feels itself uncomfortably, if it is dressed in a nonfunctionally, unbecoming for the situation manner. When discomfort for long surrounds it, this it conducts to the accumulation of negative emotions. In the course of time its patience can break, a., which formed a deposit by boiling "splash out outside.

    INTp
    Sensorika of sensations is farsighted in questions of comfort and health. Leaving for the street or leaving for the trip, has with itself the collection of the objects, which ensure the guaranteed minimum of conveniences. It forces itself to carry out the standards of hygiene. He tries to soblyudat' cleanliness, frequently wash hands. Many efforts return to the preventive maintenance of diseases, including by people methods. He is epicure. It can prepare the special dishes, which correspond to its taste. It is disposed to the use of qualitative products, although under the conditions of shortage it is capable to bypass with very simple food. Exterior view either is slovenly and neglected or, on the contrary, it is thoroughly thought out, it corresponds to last mode. This depends on that, with what public it associates.


    INTj
    The ethics of its emotions weaken and calm friendliness, positive emotions. It otklikayetsya with the pleasure on them, it becomes sociable and ingenious. It attempts to reach to close people happiness. It is affable on the close distance of oars. Its optimistic attitude transfers to partner. If emotions are negative, then it otklikayetsya on them if and only if it considers it their substantiated. In the opposite case it removes or attempts to extinguish them by logical analysis. It includes its own emotions, only when it passes to the close distance or feels itself in the customary, mastered situation. Otherwise behaves coldly and otstranenno.

    INTp
    The ethics of emotions evaluates relation to itself according to the manifestations of emotions. Its stormy, obtrusive emotions irritate, they act depressingly. In the extreme situation or when it feels the hidden hostility, it is capable to openly appear its irritation, to flare up, to require in the sharp form. It is ironic. It can flash by apt and calculated shot. If it is bad on the soul, issues poor mood in the form of black humor. Its thrust to the people depends, in addition on the current mood. In the elevated mood it occurs even it is obtrusive, in the poor - it is removed and rests in bed in the solitude.


    INTj
    Power sensorika of the relation between the people evaluates according to the degree of their ease and not constraint. The aim is affine, democratic ratios. The heavy, stressed relations select in it forces, they make with passive. Soft and gentle person, does not possess penetrating power. The sharp need for independence, territorial self-reliance is experienced. It does not know how to subordinate people, it badly defends its daily interests. In the critical situations it is irresolute and nerazvorotliv. Although preserves the composure, it needs prompt, that also as to make. Ignores violence, power pressure. It is very balanced and sustained. From it it is not possible to attain anything by coercion.

    INTp
    Power sensorika v grow prettier to physical form it is confident in itself, it is energetic, it calls to the decisive actions, although the matter reaches rarely the embodiment of calls. It needs boost from the side, power support. The absence of power guardianship leads to the weakening and the laziness. Of straight aggression it will not carry, it opposes to it by all forces. The tightened opposition does not maintain - it is removed or simply falls ill. For a good physical health it is occupied by the power forms of sport, it hardens itself, it attempts to overcome its natural weaknesses. However, to make this does not regularly to it be sufficient the force of will.

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    Way too technical for me.
    myspace.com/relationship_doctor

    "It is the mark of an educated man to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" -Aristotle
    "A person acts most in 'type' be it personal or relational when stressed or under duress." -Lewis (2006)


    XXX/xXXx i.e. unclassified and 'thinking outside the box' until i decide to 'retire' to absolute freedom.

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    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    I personally find the polr/dual-seeking function descriptions most helpful in distinguishing the difference between INTps and INTjs.

    Perhaps you disagree?

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    I would figure out a Socionic type in a 'reverse engineering' kind of way i.e. notice the informational metabolism of the relationships to guess an intertype relation and work from there.
    myspace.com/relationship_doctor

    "It is the mark of an educated man to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" -Aristotle
    "A person acts most in 'type' be it personal or relational when stressed or under duress." -Lewis (2006)


    XXX/xXXx i.e. unclassified and 'thinking outside the box' until i decide to 'retire' to absolute freedom.

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    In general such descriptions of functions are not reliable typing weapons. They are too easy to misunderstand or misinterpret, and even if you understand them correctly, it is difficult to determine whether they correspond to reality or not.

    The descriptions of might be the worst among those listed. If you focus to much on those, I believe that the risk of mistyping is great.

    is better. It is roughly correct and it is possible to relate to it.

    and are not very useful.

    , , and are somewhat better, especially the and the . They might be helpful.

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    gaypog, it would be cool if you made ones for ENTj/ENTp and INFp/INFj/ISFp....
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    All I've done is get translations from http://socionics.org/type/default.aspx of the detailed Gulenko descriptions and matched identical functions so that they can be compared for different types.

    If I could be bothered I would do all of them. And then there is also the tedious task of making translations more readable.

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    oh

    yeah, that sounds like a pain in the ass

    hold on... I have an idea
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    For ENTp and ENTj I have only done the polr and dual-seeking function.


    ENTp
    the ethics of relations with the people associates on the short psychological distance. Relations are evaluated according to the degree of their democratism. The less the formalism and ceremonies, the for it better. It is very inconsistent with respect to its native or friends. First it is democratic to the familiarity, then it is suddenly severe and unapproachable as with the strange people. People, which to it are turned for help, it can render this aid unselfishly. To it it is very difficult to spoil relations, rejecting to man the contact. It feels his link by relations. Without being troubled, it shares with its surrounding personal problems. It is inclined to discuss the special features of the behavior of people or their means of life.

    ENTj
    the ethics of relations with the people associates democratically, on the close psychological distance. It is disposed to the positive relation and the friendliness in its territory. It weakens the atmosphere of warm, sincere contact, difference with it necessary to settle in the nonformal situation, after certifying it in its good sense. Greatly it needs reliable, stable human relations. Because of the inability to immediately recognize falsity, can make it possible to draw itself in adventure. It values the reliable, checked by time friends. It fears its inattention to those surrounding. After spoiling with someone of relation, it searches for, as to smooth out its fault. In this case it makes gifts or manifests the concrete concern about the partner.



    ENTp
    sensorika of sensations frequently is acted unsure of the estimation of the physical qualities of objects. It scrutinizes everything, sniffs, it feels. In order to feel the taste of food or beverages, it needs their significant dose. Its tone is supported with external stimulators. In the first place its own conveniences are placed. Easily it expends, without a moment's hesitation about the reserves. Is not turned attention by an order around itself. Leave objects, where it used them, and it then for long searches for them. It is interested in questions of diseases and health. After falling ill, it assumes the increased doses of treatment, searches for radical methods. However, it is not occupied by daily preventive maintenance. Exterior view is frequently careless. It badly bears clothing, it in it rapidly is worn out. It does not love changes in the customary for itself situation in the accomodation. It is conservative in the tastes and the everyday habits.

    ENTj
    sensorika of sensations can live and work in the conditions of discomfort, absence of conveniences. Its nature usually allots by endurance and health. It is not exacting to food and formulation of dwelling. Exterior view little disturbs it. Has the tendency for long to walk in one clothing, getting used to it. It is appointed if and only if its relations with those surrounding depend on this. It relates well to those, who frees it from the need for worry about the way of life and the daily trifles. It does not love people, which are covered by their weakness and diseases. It behaves light-heartedly, and now and then and lightly on nature. In it there are the extremes with respect to the harmful habits: first flaunts by them, then actively fights with them. The same extremes are encountered also in the sexual life.

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    thanks gaypog. what do you think of these?




    ENTp

    The fourth function of the ENTp is Fi, by which subjective feeling substantiates itself through various ethical processes. Since the ENTp type thrives in a world of logical and non-ethical and objective principles, it may be rendered difficult for this type to deconstruct and disassemble various levels of emotions, feelings, and moods in order to gauge a sense of their inner workings or how they habitually function. In result of this inability, expected behaviors should include a disability to understand ones own emotional state as it applies to self and others, difficulty understanding the emotional intentions of other, an inability to comprehend the amount of emotion needed to establish long lasting relationships, loosing interest in associating with people who are either too attentive or non-attentive, not knowing the right thing to say to people to avoid hurting them, accidentally insulting or offending people and not understanding why, and general lack of values or ethics.


    ENTj

    The fifth function of the ENTj is Fi, by which subjective feeling substantiates itself through various ethical processes. Though be this a weak, unconscious, and influential function, it should find itself most active within the presence of one whose dominant function coincides, for it it seeks to be strong and may pretend to be such. At other times, an expression of this function may find itself in place of the weak and conscious Fe function. Manifested bahaviours expected of this function should include imagining or demonstrating an inability to tell if others are with or against him or her, obsessive tendencies towards paranoia and possible attempt at domination in result of that paranoia, problems discerning the diffrence between good and bad and may even accidently and unintentionally distort the line between the two, prone to lack of effection until certain of seeing a return, and attempts to win the love of others in ways that seem contradictory or abusive, and lack of emotional connectivity to others.






    ENTp

    The fifth function of the ENTp is Si, by which the essence of experiences arrive and insights into their development arise. Though be this a weak, unconscious, and influential function, it should find itself most active within the presence of one whose dominant function coincides, for it it seeks to be strong and may pretend to be such. At other times, an expression of this function may find itself in place of the weak and conscious Se function. Manifested bahaviours expected of this function should include experiencing uncontrollable flashbacks of negitive or distorted experiences, obsession with past experiences that seem to have a grip on current reality, having a compulsion to keeping things a certain way because they have a certain familiarity to them, not wanting to change the past, prone to inactivity and unwilling to change since that would mean wrecking or damaging the current and future experience, looking past people or things and walking around with distant and vague look in eye as though unaware of surroundings.


    ENTj

    The fourth function of the ENTj is Si, by which the essence of experiences arrive and insights into their development arise. Since the ENTj type thrives in a world of abstract and non-concrete theoretical principles, it may be rendered difficult for this type to maintain from within an active index of all experiences developed and derived through time, and the patterns of ones own personal life as gauged through the senses. In result of this inability, expected behaviors should include losing track of ones own physical state and a deterioration of healthy physical practices, avoiding surrounding details or noticing too much detail and obsessing about it, suspicion or defensiveness about personal appearance, distant physical look in eyes and appearing to others as though unaware, walking or looking past people, objects, and things as though they were not there, static taste and inflexible habits, unsure of aesthetic understanding, or an obsession with cleanliness.

    **EDIT: Yes, this is me, sometimes/sorta
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    Overall, I think this is a good experiment. Actually, it would be interesting to combine these with the corresponding ones by Str...skaya.

    The biggest problem is that since this is machine-translated, my eyes sort of glaze over. When reading that werii3i3 r and then it 293k4k4memme says that 939k3kkkfk3kf3f, it's hard to focus or to have confidence that one's understading the description properly.

    Although it seems that Gulenko has made important contributions to the field, I remember there was another article I read of his (the one that describes how to simulate the functions) that suggested to me that the understanding of the functions was a bit superficial.

    In any case, no matter how many descriptions one goes through, one can't get past the basic fact that there are different schools....that not everyone sees the functions in the same way.

    Anyhow, focusing just on Gulenko's definitions here, I'd probably not come out INTp, and would be closer to INTj, ENTp, or some other type.

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    Stratiyevskaya's descriptions are way, WAY too fucking long to do something like this with
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    In any case, no matter how many descriptions one goes through, one can't get past the basic fact that there are different schools....that not everyone sees the functions in the same way.
    And that proves that we should not focus on the functions to determine the types. Instead we should focus on the types themselves.

    The interesting thing is that no one really disagrees about which type is which, if the different groups of people, who are members of the same type, are lined up in front of all us to look at. Every one seems to agree on how an INTj looks like, how an INTp looks like etc. Most socionists and MBTI practitioners and Keirsey followers also agree on how the different types behave, at least when it comes to typical J and P behaviour, which is the most crucial observable difference between INTjs and INTps.

    Those socionists who mainly (or only) focus on the functions are putting their faith in an unreliable typing method. The simple truth is that we get better and more accurate results if we focus more on type descriptions and V.I. than on function analysis.

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    Yeah, function analysis is what fucks with me. I have, like, no
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Those socionists who mainly (or only) focus on the functions are putting their faith in an unreliable typing method. The simple truth is that we get better and more accurate results if we focus more on type descriptions and V.I. than on function analysis.
    I would say that that's a reply to a classical thread.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    In any case, no matter how many descriptions one goes through, one can't get past the basic fact that there are different schools....that not everyone sees the functions in the same way.
    And that proves that we should not focus on the functions to determine the types. Instead we should focus on the types themselves.

    The interesting thing is that no one really disagrees about which type is which, if the different groups of people, who are members of the same type, are lined up in front of all us to look at. Every one seems to agree on how an INTj looks like, how an INTp looks like etc. Most socionists and MBTI practitioners and Keirsey followers also agree on how the different types behave, at least when it comes to typical J and P behaviour, which is the most crucial observable difference between INTjs and INTps.

    Those socionists who mainly (or only) focus on the functions are putting their faith in an unreliable typing method. The simple truth is that we get better and more accurate results if we focus more on type descriptions and V.I. than on function analysis.
    So why are people having trouble typing themselves then?

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    I would say that that's a reply to a classical thread.
    Does that mean that you agree, Rocky? Isn't what I said true?

    So why are people having trouble typing themselves then?
    They use the wrong methods, and they don't collect enough information about the different types before they make up their mind.

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    I think that most people on this forum are not in a position to perform VI accurately, includingm me. That is why i don't place much reliance on it.

    I think I would need some sort of training in VI to do it.

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    I think I would need some sort of training in VI to do it.
    I suggest you start training. V.I. is just one of several typing methods, but it is a useful complement. It makes your typings more accurate.

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    I can't train myself. I would need guidance from a competent teacher.

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    I can't train myself. I would need guidance from a competent teacher.
    Nonsense. You can start observing real life people whose type you are certain of. And you can analyze and compare the pictures of different types that socionists put up on the Internet. Not all of them are correct of course, but many of them are.

    You can also have a look at all those people who think that they know their type and have pictures of themselves on their personal web site.

    And Sergei Ganin has a V.I. training tool on his site. Learn all of his computer pictures by heart, and compare with his celebrities collection. They are roughly correct, even if he might have got some celebrities wrong.

    The important thing is to grasp the general pattern. Once you "get it", and have some real life people, whose type you are certain of, in your personal "collection", you have something to work with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    I would say that that's a reply to a classical thread.
    Does that mean that you agree, Rocky? Isn't what I said true?
    Yeah, I agree... functional models (like ANY model in any form) can only go so far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    I think people experienced in doing VI will not type everyone correctly. What do you think?

    Peoples types are based on a theoretical model, therefore I think peoples types must be based/determined on that model rather than on just looking at them.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaypog
    I think people experienced in doing VI will not type everyone correctly. What do you think?

    Peoples types are based on a theoretical model, therefore I think peoples types must be based/determined on that model rather than on just looking at them.
    It will always be subjective and completely unreliable. Also, it does not really cover all faces equally. Skulls and such are different from biological formation over time on different cultures. And what about the Tiger Woods of life--those that are from multiple extremes of lineage? It has not been proven that VI is cross-cultural at all.

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    Peoples types are based on a theoretical model, therefore I think peoples types must be based/determined on that model rather than on just looking at them.
    Many share this mistaken belief with you. But you are all wrong. The types are observable empirical "objects". The theoretical models are just more or less successful attempts to explain the real types that we all can observe and agree upon. That's how we should look at types, anyway.

    V.I. is not a totally reliable typing method yet. But it probably will be some day, when we can let a computer do the job for us. In the meantime we have to try our best. People will not type everyone correctly or in the same way, and the simple reason for that is that some people are better at V.I. than others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    Peoples types are based on a theoretical model, therefore I think peoples types must be based/determined on that model rather than on just looking at them.
    Many share this mistaken belief with you. But you are all wrong. The types are observable empirical "objects". The theoretical models are just more or less successful attempts to explain the real types that we all can observe and agree upon. That's how we should look at types, anyway.
    You have to bear in mind that socionics is a theory - its not real.

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    You have to bear in mind that socionics is a theory - its not real.
    You are perfectly right about Socionics being a theory. But that is totally irrelevant. The types are real, even if Socionics might have got one or two things wrong in its theoretical explanations of the essential natures of the real types.

    The socionic types are theoretical constructs, but they claim to correspond with reality. If they don't do that the socionic types don't exist, but the types don't cease to exist. They have been there all the time -- long before Jung invented his scheme and others followed in his footsteps.

    You have to bear in mind that the types is a biological phenomenon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    The types are real
    The types are real only in theory, which means they are not real. Types could be based on any theory, eg MBTI, Socionics, Ennergrams, etc.

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    The types are real only in theory, which means they are not real.
    What you say here is fundamentally mistaken and simply false. You have an incorrect understanding of what a theory is and its relation to reality. Every theory is about objective reality. If a theory says that there are types, that statement is objectively true or false. And it is objective reality that determines its truth value, not the theory. You can see that there are types if you look at objective reality yourself.

    If you can't see the types you are either blind or need to learn more about types. If you think that the types are only theoretical constructs (and therefore not real), then you might be brainwashed by popular -- but false -- doctrines in epistemology and the philosophy of science.

    Types could be based on any theory, eg MBTI, Socionics, Ennergrams, etc.
    Yes, the theoretical constructs could be based on any theory. But the theoretical constructs are not the real types. All those theories are talking about the same empirical phenomenon. And that phenomenon is definitely biological. Socionics should primarily collaborate with neuroscience, not with psychology or other more or less obscure fields.

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    And that proves that we should not focus on the functions to determine the types. Instead we should focus on the types themselves.

    The interesting thing is that no one really disagrees about which type is which, if the different groups of people, who are members of the same type, are lined up in front of all us to look at. Every one seems to agree on how an INTj looks like, how an INTp looks like etc. Most socionists and MBTI practitioners and Keirsey followers also agree on how the different types behave, at least when it comes to typical J and P behaviour, which is the most crucial observable difference between INTjs and INTps.

    Those socionists who mainly (or only) focus on the functions are putting their faith in an unreliable typing method. The simple truth is that we get better and more accurate results if we focus more on type descriptions and V.I. than on function analysis.
    I think the main point you remind us of...that we shouldn't forget that the idea is to study something that exists "out there" as it were...is important. And it's also helpful to point out the fact that the J/P (rat./irrat.) descriptions by Socionists and other Jung-based typologies are similar.

    But I wouldn't quite agree that everyone agrees on what the types look like or who is in each type. The disagreement on function definitions extends to disagreement on type descriptions. Some Socionists see INTps as very businessy, goal-directed, somewhat practical, and materialistic. Others see them as academics and intellectual explorers who have a style of expressing their ideas by referring to or critiquing other ideas.

    I'm guessing that in Gulenko's way of looking at things, I'm INTj or ENTp, but in Dmitri's, I probably am INTp.

    In any case, getting a good model of what's "behind" the types, whether the theory involves functions or something else, is important, otherwise it's all about mere observation without any meaningful analysis. There needs to be a consistent model for one to be able to make useful predictions.

    Of course, the intertype relationships theory in Socionics is such an attempt to make predictions based on logical understanding, and it relies on the functional model. So, as long as the functional model has lots of different versions, the intertype relationships theory is suspect as well.

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