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Thread: Phobic/Counterphobic/?????

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    Default Phobic/Counterphobic/?????

    I've been coming to debate my being a phobic vs counterphobic 6 recently, especially since Siuntal's post regarding Sx primaries and counter-fixation mechanisms. Now that I've come much more into my own and have a better understanding of how I operate naturally I would say I have more "counterphobic" tendencies than I previously gave myself credit for: challenging/lashing out against people I view as threats (you can look my list of targets in the past like Gul, Aleksei, ESC, recently jetson for evidence of that), resentment towards people who succumb to their anxieties (my brother in particular), etc. I would say though that I'm often very aware of the things that make me anxious, and if I don't know what's causing it then I devote almost all my energy to rooting out the source of the problem and correcting it; this tactic could just as easily allay a good portion of the extremes in terms of phobic/counterphobic reactivity patterns (5 wing much?).

    Ultimately, the answer I want to come to is that the p/cp dichotomy isn't at all set in stone, and that any 6 given a different situation and level of mental health can exhibit either set of traits. As such, for me to attempt pinning down which side I fall more squarely on from the perspective of myself is a futile effort, since the answer will always depend more on my current mood than any analysis of regular behavior patterns.

    This being the case, I pass the torch onto whoever the hell actually reads the things I say and has an opinion on how I operate as a 3rd party observer.

    gooooooooooo



    EDIT: for fear of begging the question, you use this space to talk about my enneatype in general if the notion of me as a 6 doesn't sit right with y'all.
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    But you're still gay?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I've been coming to debate my being a phobic vs counterphobic 6 recently, especially since Siuntal's post regarding Sx primaries and counter-fixation mechanisms. Now that I've come much more into my own and have a better understanding of how I operate naturally I would say I have more "counterphobic" tendencies than I previously gave myself credit for: challenging/lashing out against people I view as threats (you can look my list of targets in the past like Gul, Aleksei, ESC, recently jetson for evidence of that), resentment towards people who succumb to their anxieties (my brother in particular), etc. I would say though that I'm often very aware of the things that make me anxious, and if I don't know what's causing it then I devote almost all my energy to rooting out the source of the problem and correcting it; this tactic could just as easily allay a good portion of the extremes in terms of phobic/counterphobic reactivity patterns (5 wing much?).

    Ultimately, the answer I want to come to is that the p/cp dichotomy isn't at all set in stone, and that any 6 given a different situation and level of mental health can exhibit either set of traits. As such, for me to attempt pinning down which side I fall more squarely on from the perspective of myself is a futile effort, since the answer will always depend more on my current mood than any analysis of regular behavior patterns.

    This being the case, I pass the torch onto whoever the hell actually reads the things I say and has an opinion on how I operate as a 3rd party observer.

    gooooooooooo



    EDIT: for fear of begging the question, you use this space to talk about my enneatype in general if the notion of me as a 6 doesn't sit right with y'all.
    Well, 6s that are sx primary tend to be highly counterphobic, which would fit in with your overall behaviour. Sometimes you might be phobic, but almost nobody is completely one way or another. I have no reason to question your enneagram type and instinctual stacking unless you have some other enneagram types and stackings you are playing around with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Well, 6s that are sx primary tend to be highly counterphobic, which would fit in with your overall behaviour. Sometimes you might be phobic, but almost nobody is completely one way or another. I have no reason to question your enneagram type and instinctual stacking unless you have some other enneagram types and stackings you are playing around with.
    The problem though is that I never thought of myself as "highly" counterphobic. Whatever pseudo-aggressive tendencies I have seem more like traits that have only recently come into being. That is, unless someone else can point out otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    But you're still gay?
    cute
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    cute
    You find those people mentioned above in your first post threatening?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You find those people mentioned above in your first post threatening?
    In an intellectual sense I do; it's not as if they pose any physical threat to anybody on here. What got me about them was their insistence on spreading misleading or outright false information about themselves and others, and having others' thoughts being led astray by their lies that struck me as inexcusable intellectual dishonesty.
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    I am not sure that I properly fathom what it specifically is and how it relates to the rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    What got me about them was their insistence on spreading misleading or outright false information about themselves and others, and having others' thoughts being led astray by their lies that struck me as inexcusable intellectual dishonesty.
    Hmm, might be worth looking into counter-phobic. Your call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    I am not sure that I properly fathom what it specifically is and how it relates to the rest.
    It = phobic/counterphobic dichotomy?

    From http://ocean-moonshine.net/e14285736...position=33:33

    It is typically at a quite young age then, in response to the illegitimate or insensitive exercise of authority, that Sixes adopt their fundamental strategy for dealing with their underlying anxieties and for handling imbalanced power relationships. Some Sixes adopt a basically phobic approach. Phobic Sixes are generally compliant, affiliative and cooperative. They strive to avoid undue attention and to defuse tension by appearing to be "harmless." They thereby strive to avoid triggering aggression in others. Other Sixes adopt the opposite strategy of dealing with anxieties and become counterphobic, essentially taking a defiant stand against whomever or whatever they find threatening. This is the Six who takes on authority or who adopts a dare devil attitude towards physical danger. Counterphobic Sixes can be aggressive, and frequently adopt a rebellious or anti-authoritarian demeanor. Such Sixes are often unaware of the fear which motivates their actions. For counterphobic Sixes, the inner tension of living with their anxiety is greater than the fear of any external threat they might be facing, so they adopt an oppositional attitude and throw themselves into action. This approach sometimes succeeds in obscuring from the counterphobic Six's line of vision the fear which is actually at the root of their behavior. Consequently, counterphobic Sixes frequently deny being anxious. Interestingly, some phobic Sixes are also unaware of their underlying anxiety, an anxiety which is often readily apparent to others. Because anxiety serves as the backdrop to all their emotional states, some Sixes are unaware of its existence, as they have nothing with which to contrast it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    The problem though is that I never thought of myself as "highly" counterphobic. Whatever pseudo-aggressive tendencies I have seem more like traits that have only recently come into being. That is, unless someone else can point out otherwise.
    Yeah you do seem kind of balanced, but that could be a result of your sp instinct holding you back a bit, I imagine sx/so would be a lot more counterphobic than an sx/sp. You should check out this link of instinct ranges as you might find it useful, you could be an sx/sp with strong sp or an sp/sx with strong sx:

    http://typewatchenneagram.blogspot.ca/

    I fall into the mid range sp/sx best from these descriptions.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    The problem though is that I never thought of myself as "highly" counterphobic. Whatever pseudo-aggressive tendencies I have seem more like traits that have only recently come into being. That is, unless someone else can point out otherwise.
    I think the degree of counterphobic behavior that someone displays is directly proportional to the degree of neurosis that they are experiencing and their circumstances, how stressful a particular situation is for them, how threatened they feel, etc. Most people don't go around acting counterphobically because 1) there just aren't any precursors for it in their daily life and 2) they aren't highly neurotic (according to Karen Horney we're all neurotic, but only few are to an extent that it becomes a focal point of their life), so I don't think you should be expecting yourself to be "highly" counterphobic all the time. Then also assuming that we all have all three instincts, sx-primaries would be just more likely to attempt to push through their own fears, and that is only if they run into a situation that would provoke them. Assuming this, I would go with counterphobic, because of what you said in the other thread - that your desire to persevere is usually stronger and it wins out over fear for you.

    On a somewhat related note, I was looking at this enneagram VI compilation some time ago and wondering if one can tell phobic from counterphobic 6 from how a person looks: http://pinterest.com/enneagram/enneagram-type-6/ - Eminem, Gibson, Nixon, and Chastain have distinctively distrustful expressions, as if they aren't going to just believe whatever someone may tell them, whereas a few other 6s from that collection look very open, friendly, and trusting on their photos. That may be an additional clue, if this enneagram VI method has any merit to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Yeah you do seem kind of balanced, but that could be a result of your sp instinct holding you back a bit, I imagine sx/so would be a lot more counterphobic than an sx/sp. You should check out this link of instinct ranges as you might find it useful, you could be an sx/sp with strong sp or an sp/sx with strong sx:

    http://typewatchenneagram.blogspot.ca/

    I fall into the mid range sp/sx best from these descriptions.
    I don't really get what that link means about "drawing from" other types. Looks like it has something to do with that instinct cycle or whatever like sx -> sp -> so -> sx, a theory I'm still very dubious about. Other than that, I do like to think about instinct priority as lying on a continuum, where priority is split up between 100% among all three. Just at a first glace I'd say I relate more to midline > strong sp, but since they mostly describe secondary personality characteristics it depends on the situation I'm in. I would say though that my sx vs sp prioritizations are certainly much closer in value than anything with so. FWIW I've sort of pushed sp/sx for me off the table, I'm too overall engaging and focused compared to the sp/sxs I've known.

    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    I think the degree of counterphobic behavior that someone displays is directly proportional to the degree of neurosis that they are experiencing and their circumstances, how stressful a particular situation is for them, how threatened they feel, etc. Most people don't go around acting counterphobically because 1) there just aren't any precursors for it in their daily life and 2) they aren't highly neurotic (according to Karen Horney we're all neurotic, but only few are to an extent that it becomes a focal point of their life), so I don't think you should be expecting yourself to be "highly" counterphobic all the time. Then also assuming that we all have all three instincts, sx-primaries would be just more likely to attempt to push through their own fears, and that is only if they run into a situation that would provoke them. Assuming this, I would go with counterphobic, because of what you said in the other thread - that your desire to persevere is usually stronger and it wins out over fear for you.
    Yeah, I find that it's really easy to see all counterphobic 6s as the rambunctious daredevils/rebels-without-a-cause without seeing how they exist within a sliding scale of phobic-ness.

    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    On a somewhat related note, I was looking at this enneagram VI compilation some time ago and wondering if one can tell phobic from counterphobic 6 from how a person looks: http://pinterest.com/enneagram/enneagram-type-6/ - Eminem, Gibson, Nixon, and Chastain have distinctively distrustful expressions, as if they aren't going to just believe whatever someone may tell them, whereas a few other 6s from that collection look very open, friendly, and trusting on their photos. That may be an additional clue, if this enneagram VI method has any merit to it.
    Enneagram VI could work for me, but I'd need to study the expressions of maaany different in order to get it for myself. As much as I like how the Enneagram Explorations people are pushing forward on that front, I find a good chunk of their typings to be just stupid. That said, I would think I vacillate between those two types of expressions given who I'm interacting with. When I'm listening to somebody talk about something serious I find that I furl my brows and focus in with strong intent. Sometimes I wonder if other people get uncomfortable when I give them that serious-stare, but so far nobody's spoken up about it, lol.
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    hey baby, face it, your cp. I'll accept you into the club. Promise.
    Last edited by jet city woman; 04-27-2012 at 07:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    It = phobic/counterphobic dichotomy?

    From http://ocean-moonshine.net/e14285736...position=33:33

    [/FONT]
    btw, I love your sincerity in your posts re: being honest and wanting to learn, etc.

    As for the subject:

    I think I see 2 prime issues now that you brought this text up. The first issue, to me, is the idea that Enneagram has a basis in context to development. The second issue is that the idea of 6's and compliance is a systemic failure of the idea of the enneagram system. ie. 1,2, 3, and 4 are compliant types or are types based on the idea of compliance (4s are tricky lol). 5,6,7, and 8 are not. 9's are void of either schema, which is a huge part of the definition of a 9.This leads me to believe that terminology of phobic/counterphonic may be improperly set out there to mean something which was not meant. In other words, in regard to the whole idea of point 2, is that I think that the terminology needs to be refined before even approaching p/cp ideas in other types.

    I hope this makes sense. I realize I am making jumps here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    btw, I love your sincerity in your posts re: being honest and wanting to learn, etc.
    <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    I think I see 2 prime issues now that you brought this text up. The first issue, to me, is the idea that Enneagram has a basis in context to development.
    I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Clarify?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    The second issue is that the idea of 6's and compliance is a systemic failure of the idea of the enneagram system. ie. 1,2, 3, and 4 are compliant types or are types based on the idea of compliance (4s are tricky lol). 5,6,7, and 8 are not. 9's are void of either schema, which is a huge part of the definition of a 9.This leads me to believe that terminology of phobic/counterphonic may be improperly set out there to mean something which was not meant. In other words, in regard to the whole idea of point 2, is that I think that the terminology needs to be refined before even approaching p/cp ideas in other types.
    Actually "compliant" is a subset within another triad, the so-called Social Styles: http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/socstyle.html. The presence of counter-fixations does skew these descriptions to some extent, but I think it's still fair to say that each type's fixations revolve around these areas to some extent, whether it be succumbing to those patterns or yearning to break free of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I don't really get what that link means about "drawing from" other types. Looks like it has something to do with that instinct cycle or whatever like sx -> sp -> so -> sx, a theory I'm still very dubious about. Other than that, I do like to think about instinct priority as lying on a continuum, where priority is split up between 100% among all three. Just at a first glace I'd say I relate more to midline > strong sp, but since they mostly describe secondary personality characteristics it depends on the situation I'm in. I would say though that my sx vs sp prioritizations are certainly much closer in value than anything with so. FWIW I've sort of pushed sp/sx for me off the table, I'm too overall engaging and focused compared to the sp/sxs I've known.
    I agree, that we use all three stackings at certain points, we just divide certain attention to specific ones over another. I just see these further breakdowns of the instinctual stackings as subtypes so to speak. If you relate to midline sx/sp, then that would indicate that you're much more likely to be counterphobic as opposed to phobic.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    I agree, that we use all three stackings at certain points, we just divide certain attention to specific ones over another. I just see these further breakdowns of the instinctual stackings as subtypes so to speak. If you relate to midline sx/sp, then that would indicate that you're much more likely to be counterphobic as opposed to phobic.
    I will say that whatever containment I feel within me is probably more the result of the circumstances I find myself in, as opposed to how I "want to be." I don't particularly want to hold back my energy when I have it, but until I find an appropriate outlet for it there's really not much I can do about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I will say that whatever containment I feel within me is probably more the result of the circumstances I find myself in, as opposed to how I "want to be." I don't particularly want to hold back my energy when I have it, but until I find an appropriate outlet for it there's really not much I can do about it.
    Yeah that sounds rather sx/sp to me, I imagine the most counterphobic would usually be the sx/so as the sx/sp would hold back a bit more.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Yeah that sounds rather sx/sp to me, I imagine the most counterphobic would usually be the sx/so as the sx/sp would hold back a bit more.
    Perhaps counterphobia in sx/so's and sx/sp's is expressed in some markedly different ways? I haven't seen anybody talk about this distinction at all, but I imagine sx/so counterphobia is more expansive and outwardly confronting, with sx/sp exhibiting a more inwardly directed conflict. w5 vs w7 probably plays a part too, I have read of 5-wing counterphobia manifesting in conflicts with authority while 7-wings are more of the dare-devil type. Someone on EIDB made a thread about a 6w7 sx/so base jumper, seemed like a good (if not extreme) example of outwardly-directed counterphobia:



    Ultimately what I want to know more than just the theory is if others actually see in me the things we're talking about, regardless of what I have to say about myself.
    Last edited by Galen; 04-27-2012 at 07:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Yeah that sounds rather sx/sp to me, I imagine the most counterphobic would usually be the sx/so as the sx/sp would hold back a bit more.
    Not necessarily, lol. I think at this point that my so is almost neck-in-neck with my sp tho.....or at least, so is taking it's place in my life moreso and it's taking up a lot more of my time than ever before; sp seems to be moving into last place.
    Last edited by jet city woman; 04-27-2012 at 07:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet city woman View Post
    Not necessarily, lol. I think at this point that my so is almost neck-in-neck with my sp tho.....or at least, so is taking it's place in my life moreso and it's taking up a lot more of my time than ever before; sp seems to be moving into last place.
    It could be that your sx is just so strong that it overpowers your other instincts, but you still will have either so or sp as more dominant than the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    you still will have either so or sp as more dominant than the other.
    Yes, I realize this. My point is that I am actively choosing to sink more of my time into developing so, with the neglect of sp. I'm thinking it has to do with the fact that I feel comfortable with where sx and sp stand, so now I'm concentrating on developing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    It could be that your sx is just so strong that it overpowers your other instincts,
    Lol, it may seem this way, but I think it has to do with the fact that for a lot of my life I was denied the ability to exhibit my sx (and aggressor) instincts in a natural way, so now they are possibly overly-rambunctious in manifestation lol.... I feel a lot more comfortable expressing myself now than I ever did before. I've been letting it rip.... and I think people with better-developed so have been significant in influencing me to do so.
    Last edited by jet city woman; 04-28-2012 at 12:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jet city woman View Post
    Yes, I realize this. My point I think is that I am actively choosing to sink more of my time into developing so, with the neglect of sp. I'm thinking it has to do with the fact that I feel comfortable with where sx and sp stand, so now I'm concentrating on developing so.
    Yeah, that makes sense if you're sx/sp. My so has gotten a bit stronger too since when I was younger, I think the weaker instincts develop over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by jet city woman View Post
    Lol, it may seem this way, but I think it has to do with the fact that for a lot of my life I was denied the ability to exhibit my sx instincts in a natural way, so now they are possibly overly-rambunctious in manifestation lol.... I feel a lot more comfortable expressing myself now than I ever did before. I've been letting it rip.... and I think people with better-developed so have been significant in influencing me to do so.
    Yup, long term repression could lead to overly exaggerated intensity. Balance is key with such things, knowing when and when not to.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

    Ne-IEE
    6w7 sp/sx
    6w7-4w5-9w1

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raver View Post
    Balance is key with such things, knowing when and when not to.
    Hahaha, I'm not sure at this point that I want to be balanced. (Feels too damn good).
    Hedonism ftw.

  26. #26
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Bump because I'm going with counterphobic for the time being. Yell at me if you don't like it.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Thanks for bumping it, I'd forgotten to keep watch on this conver when it was happening. You know I don,t know much of anything about enneagram, except that 6 sx/sp describes me better than any other I've read. Much of what you wrote in the OP and in response to Jadae, seemed like you plucked it from my mind.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

  29. #29
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    that song is the product of legitimate skill in composition and arrangement

    europe is a dick
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    europe is a dick
    and you want it
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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