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Thread: ILI or LII

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    Default ILI or LII

    I'm a pretty new to socionics although I've been into MBTI for a while now. I've been interested in socionics on and off but i've never really been able to get into it fully because it seems to be so unclear and contradictory in places however I've decided to make more of an effort this time round.

    My main problem at the moment is trying to decide between ILI and LII, as an INTP in MBTI a lot of resources say that I am most likely an INTj and a lot of it does fit but I don't relate to being a rational much at all. I am one of the most appalingly messy people i have ever met, 5 minutes after I walk into a room it will look like a hurricane has swept through the place and it's not something that bothers me. I am, for the most part, quite happy to live in a mess but I am also happy in tidy surroundings, although it's unlikely that I'll keep them that way.

    Another reason I doubt I'm and INTj is because although I can be decisive I don't like being so and I am likely to change my mind several time, what I prefer is when someone else makes the decisions, as long I can see the logic and reasoning behind them I'm generally quite happy.

    I also have some views and opinions which, I know are potentially illogical. I think these are mainly due to my upbringing though, i grew up in a military family for the most part and so i am quite patriotic even though i can acknowledge that it's silly to be proud and protective of my country just because i was born here.

    I am an enneagram 6 if that helps at all.

    When i was deciding on my MBTI type i wrote a very long post answering a few questions which i think might be relevent to this so i'm just going to copy and paste it below.

    1) What aspect of your personality made you unsure of your type?
    Quite a few really, I am very sensitive to criticism although few people seem to realise, most of the time I'll just pretend it doesn't bother me but it'll linger for any where from a few hours to a few days and upset me. I wont change my behaviour, i'll carry on doing whatever it was but I still feel hurt. Sometimes I'll even encourage people that - don't like to insult me when i argue with them, it hurts but i feel strangely elated and energised. When I say it hurts I mean that I get this sinking feeling in my stomach.

    When I was a younger teen i went through so many stereotypes it was shocking, a girl who i started secondary school with recently said that when she first met me she thought i was going to be really popular. I'm not, in fact at the moment I have like 3 friends, only one of which goes to school with me. I spent about a year speaking to nobody after i split up from a group of popular kids as the bitching and back stabbing was annoying me. I did the 'emo' thing, the anorexia thing where me and my at the time best friend would fast and binge until we started to get seriously ill and we stopped. None of it seems at all INTP to me.

    I don't seem to think a lot, not in the way other Into seem to talk about it. i don't sit in my room thinking about life after death all the time, i'll do it occasionally but i much prefer to debate it than think about it if that makes sense however I only do that if someone else initiates it. I seem to spend most of my time reading fiction and watching tv shows. I get very obsessive about them at times and can watch at least 7 hours of something like gossip girl and still want more.

    I pretty much live in a fantasy world, I will take characters from stories, films, history and books and make a world where I'm the centre of attention. Close my eyes and pretend I'm there for hours. I'll do it at school, work, in my room or in the car and a day rarely goes by when i don't read at least one novel they can range from anything as bad as twilight to something such as On the Road and I'll love it. Sometimes i think i might me addicted to stories.

    I care about what people think a lot and I hate people judging me, if I think something I do might be less than average then i just wont do it and if i'm not naturally good at something I tend to give up. The only reason I'm doing a chemistry degree is because I showed a natural talent for grasping concepts in science easily when i was young so that's where i focused. I enjoy it but i'm not passionate about it, some areas can get me excited but most of the time it's just okay.

    2) What do you yearn for in life? Why?
    As sad as it sounds i just want to belong and be loved, i want to be able to be me without having to let worry about not meeting expectations, letting people down and making other people sad. I was a very sensitive child, i was the one who used to cry when my fish died, not because I was upset that i'd lost my fish but because I was sad and worried that the fish might have been upset or in pain. I lost that somewhere though and now I hate it when people know I'm upset.

    3) Think about a time where you felt like you were at your finest. Tell us what made you feel that way.
    I was doing coursework when i was younger for a chemistry exam and our teacher told us that no one ever got higher than 36 on it and non of us would either. I didn't even make an effort to prove him wrong, i just remember being fascinated with the topic and i loved being able to read through a paper, select relevant information and write about how it related to information from other sources and analyse what it meant for the hypothesis and draw a conclusion based on the information gathered from all the references. I ended up with 42 but although the mark was nice it didn't really mean that much to me until everyone else started complementing me on it. I just loved the process of writing the paper.

    4) What makes you feel inferior?
    Other people doing better than me, i'm not really competitive but if other people do better than me then they get the praise and the attention. Writing this has just made me realize how completely shallow i am. Might have something to do with me being an only child, and an only grandchild on one side though.

    5) What tends to weigh on your decisions? (Do you think about people, pro-cons, how you feel about it, etc.)
    It depends, when choosing my a level options my two main concerns were 'would it fit into future plans' and 'would it make my family proud', bare in mind that my future plans were also decided my things such as job prospects, level of difficulty and how my parents would perceive it. At one point i did consider doing history at university but i knew that my dad wanted me to do a 'real' subject like a science so that's where i started looking. Lucky for me it turned out pretty well though.

    6) When working on a project what is normally your emphasis? Do you like to have control of the outcome?
    I'm not really sure what is meant by this, do i want to be able to control the outcome of a project? If i like the project then no, i let it lead me but if I don't like the project then yes, i just want to get it over and done with.

    7) Describe us a time where you had a lot of fun. How is your memory of it?
    The last time i had lots of fun was probably my 18th birthday, never really felt closer to my friends than i did then. What i remember i remember clearly but i did drink quite a bit so that might be the reason.

    8) When you want to learn something new, what feels more natural for you? (Are you more prone to be hands on, to theories, to memorise, etc)
    When i learn something for enjoyment then i tend to theories but if i'm revising for a
    test then i have to memorise otherwise i forget everything.

    9) How organised do you to think of yourself as?
    Trick question right? I know i had a carpet when i moved in...

    10) How do you judge new ideas? You try to understand the principles behind it to see if they make sense or do you look for information that supports it?

    I look for information that supports it, if someone tells me an idea i'll go 'ah, so it's like..." And give a real world example.

    11) You find harmony by making sure everyone is doing fine and belonging to a given group or by making sure that you follow what you believe and being yourself?
    The former without a doubt, if everyone else is happy then i tend to be as well. I hate seeing people left out or upset i'm just really bad at comforting them, i know how they're feeling i'm just not sure how i'm supposed to respond so i tend to offer solutions or give them example of how things aren't as bad as they seem.

    12) Are you the kind that thinks before speaking or do you speak before thinking? Do you prefer one-on-one communication or group discussions?
    I think before speaking, i've always hated being asked questions in class because they need an immediate, route memorised response. I like group discussions as it means i have more people to bounce ideas off it debate with and it also means i can just sit back and listen if i don't feel like talking. With one on one you're forced to talk or sit in an awkward silence.

    13) Do you jump into action right away or do you like to know where are you jumping before leaping? Does action speaks more than words?
    I think and then act, although if thinking doesn't show the most appropriate course of action then I'll go with my gut.

    14) It's Saturday. You're at home, and your favourite show is about to start. Your friends call you for a night out. What will you do?
    Tell them that I'm poorly and stay in. If i tell them that i don't want to they'll just ring and ring until i agree.

    15) How do you act when you're stressed out?
    Spoilt, self centered, i lie and avoid what ever is stressing me out. Read more than normal.

    16) What makes you dislike the personalities of some people?
    I hate people being loud and intrusive, i don't like it when people constantly need me to reassure them, very literal people can be annoying as well. People who act really emotional bother me as well as i don't know how to respond to it, if it's attention seeking then it just passes me off. People who act superior annoy me.

    17) Is there anything you really like talking about with other people?
    science and politics as long as they not acting stuck up or too forceful about their opinions. Can be partial to gossip but i don't go looking for it.

    18) What kind of things do pay the least attention to in your life
    Being tidy, i like looking pretty and wearing nice clothes but a lot of the time it's just too much effort. I tend to neglect my friends for long periods of time and then reconnect with them for a few months before i start neglecting them again. I have a really bad tendency to just ignore rules, i don't try to break them but if it takes effort to follow them then i don't

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    Sorry for any errors in spelling, I can already spot a few but I've been without a laptop for a few months so all of that was written on my phone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stateofplay View Post
    Sorry for any errors in spelling, I can already spot a few but I've been without a laptop for a few months so all of that was written on my phone.
    I commend you if you had both the patience and time to write all that on your phone.

    Your description doesn't scream Fe polr at me.

    Quote Originally Posted by stateofplay View Post
    I am one of the most appalingly messy people i have ever met, 5 minutes after I walk into a room it will look like a hurricane has swept through the place and it's not something that bothers me. I am, for the most part, quite happy to live in a mess but I am also happy in tidy surroundings, although it's unlikely that I'll keep them that way.

    Another reason I doubt I'm and INTj is because although I can be decisive I don't like being so and I am likely to change my mind several time, what I prefer is when someone else makes the decisions, as long I can see the logic and reasoning behind them I'm generally quite happy.
    Rational/Irrational does not equal Judging/Perceiving.

    "Rationality in socionics is a perceptual quality defined by a focus on actions and emotions. In contrast, Irrationality means a focus on states of mind and body."

    Rationals

    Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early.
    Are more often rigid and stubborn.
    Do not like to change their decisions.
    Tend to finish what they started.
    Usually have stiff movements.
    Usually more 'authoritarian' leadership style.
    Low stress tolerance.

    Irrationals

    Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous.
    Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    Change their decisions frequently.
    Tend to start new things without finishing them.
    Usually have gentle movements.
    Usually more 'democratic' leadership style.
    High stress tolerance.

    Most of the above descriptions seem fine, but don't reify this stuff too much. A better piece of advice is to completely avoid the j/p dichotomy and dichotomies in general, though if you're sure about INTx, then focus on NiTe vs. TiNe.

    I would almost certainly go with INTj > INTp.
    Last edited by nil; 04-24-2012 at 05:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    I commend you if you had both the patience and time to write all that on your phone.
    It's for a socionics cause. I'm going to finish reading don't know when.

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    judging does not mean clean. Si is more associated with clean than Judging. INTjs are not decisive types, that is the ILI.

    Are you a girl? It is unclear in your prose-wall.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Si is more associated with clean than Judging.
    Maybe with a combination of rationality and Si. ISps put priority on comfort, not cleanliness.

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    Yeah, I can see that.

    Also Si PoLR is found only in rationals - ENXjs.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    judging does not mean clean. Si is more associated with clean than Judging. INTjs are not decisive types, that is the ILI.

    Are you a girl? It is unclear in your prose-wall.
    Yeah I'm a girl, so the general consensus is INTj? I'm pretty sure about the INTx because i relate to both descriptions in general however both of them seem to have a few aspects that I don't agree with at all. It may have something to do with difficulty in finding a good and accurate profile for each though.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    ILE?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    You seem to value Si over Se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    ILE?
    I highly doubt it, although i like to debate to learn new things and solidify my opinions i try to avoid people in general, i rarely attend school because i find it draining to be around so many people in such a loud enviroment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inconnu View Post
    You seem to value Si over Se.
    I don't really know, i've been searching for examples and descriptions of the cognitive functions for socionics but most of them are so hazy and general that i can't really understand them.

    I'm very messy but i dislike other people cleaning up my mess. It seems pointless for the most part, yeah i have books all over my bedroom floor but why does it matter? Why are you so concerned about it that you have to tidy it up and then resent me for not doing it? They're just going to end up all over the floor again in a couple of days.

    My mother is an ISFJ (MBTI) and it's a constant issue, she wants my bedroom spotless because it's her house and it gives her hives if something's messy but as far as i'm concerned it's my bedroom, nobody else has to go in it or see it so why does it matter to her if it's clean or not?

    I'm not sure what that means in terms of cognitive functions though. It might just be a teenager thing.

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    You sound really cute honestly. I think you are Alpha NT. Probably LII.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediator Kam View Post
    You sound really cute honestly. I think you are Alpha NT. Probably LII.
    Thanks.
    Mind if i ask why you think LII?

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    When given the choice between ILI and LII, I choose sad ILE.

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stateofplay View Post
    Thanks.
    Mind if i ask why you think LII?
    Well, you don't sound anything like a gamma. You seem to value Si far over Se, and I can maybe possibly sense Fe over Fi. You don't seem as hard-nosed as Gamma NT come off to me. This is why I say LII, but I would rather you be my dual though
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    I usually don't post in these threads, but I've already done so in this one...

    I think alpha NT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stateofplay View Post
    I don't really know, i've been searching for examples and descriptions of the cognitive functions for socionics but most of them are so hazy and general that i can't really understand them.
    Those are functions. You are tend to value either Se (extroverted sensing) over Si (introverted sensing) or vice versa. But you don't necessarily have them as strong ones. Basically this means that you are probably Alpha or Delta quadra, but not Beta or Gamma.
    Here is a link with detailed descriptions of those : http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...le=IM_elements

    I agree on Alpha NT. You sound quite up-beat and nice, all ILIs i know are much more pragmatic and critical in the way the write.

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Where are you??
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    When given the choice between ILI and LII, I choose sad ILE.
    Of cause, just when I'm pretty sure I'm an LII throw another type my way why don't you?

    I do think I might have been pretty hasty with dismissing ILE straight away as I identify with an awful lot of the profile but I can't really wrap my head around being an extrovert, it's just never really been me. I often enjoy being by myself more than I do being surrounded by loads of people, I do identify with having lots of acquaintances though and being friends with different groups of people, particularly a couple of ago, but I never really wanted to spend time with any of them outside of school or whatever activity I met them in. If they bugged me enough then I'd go out and enjoy myself but I rarely initiated it.

    I don't really use analogies in my speech or come up with new ideas, most of the ideas I come up with are based on previous ones and even then it doesn't really happen.

    I do identify with playing the devil's advocate though, as much as it irritates me because it stops me from being able to believe or support anything fully. If someone makes a blanket statement like 'murder is wrong' then I'll want to say something like 'So if someone came to your house, raped your little sister, then strangled her and then you had the choice between letting them get away knowing they'll do it again with it or killing them you would still think that it's wrong to murder that person?'.

    As far as I'm concerned everything has exceptions and there are no universal truths, everything is subjective.

    What's the difference between a normal ILE and a sad ILE? Is it just the being more introverted? I don't confront people really and I'm very quite; I can also be quite sensitive to negative comments, particularly when I don't understand the reasoning behind them, that are directed personally at me which has made me a little more withdrawn as well as a fear or rejection. If I'm not sure how someone will react to something then I don't tend to say it unless it's an academic type of thing. Probably my best example of this is during a philosophy debate in class the question was asked 'What good ever comes from war?' and my immediate response was, much to the horror of my classmates 'population control'. I could understand why they didn't like my answer and it's not something I would have written down in an essay, well, if I had then I'd have been a bit more sensitive about it but it irritates me when people refuse valid points because they don't like them yet if I'm in a group of people just talking then I'll generally avoid saying anything that might be taken the wrong way or offend anybody unless I know that they know me well enough to know that I don't mean any offense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediator Kam View Post
    Where are you??
    Sorry, I got a bit caught up in school work so I haven't really had time to respond!
    I think you're right though, well, I'm certain of the Alpha NT so now I just need to decide between LII and ILE. It's okay though, I'm always looking for new ways to procrastinate and avoid work.

    I definitely relate to as a 'mobilizing (6th) function', it's pretty perfect actually, but I also relate to as a 'role (3rd) function' and I don't think you can have both. The latter actually stresses me out quite a bit, I want to say it but I don't in case I hurt or offend someone. Gah

    If MBTI was a time sink then I get the feeling the socionics is going to be much, much worse.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stateofplay View Post
    Of cause, just when I'm pretty sure I'm an LII throw another type my way why don't you?

    I do think I might have been pretty hasty with dismissing ILE straight away as I identify with an awful lot of the profile but I can't really wrap my head around being an extrovert, it's just never really been me. I often enjoy being by myself more than I do being surrounded by loads of people, I do identify with having lots of acquaintances though and being friends with different groups of people, particularly a couple of ago, but I never really wanted to spend time with any of them outside of school or whatever activity I met them in. If they bugged me enough then I'd go out and enjoy myself but I rarely initiated it.

    I don't really use analogies in my speech or come up with new ideas, most of the ideas I come up with are based on previous ones and even then it doesn't really happen.

    I do identify with playing the devil's advocate though, as much as it irritates me because it stops me from being able to believe or support anything fully. If someone makes a blanket statement like 'murder is wrong' then I'll want to say something like 'So if someone came to your house, raped your little sister, then strangled her and then you had the choice between letting them get away knowing they'll do it again with it or killing them you would still think that it's wrong to murder that person?'.

    As far as I'm concerned everything has exceptions and there are no universal truths, everything is subjective.

    What's the difference between a normal ILE and a sad ILE? Is it just the being more introverted? I don't confront people really and I'm very quite; I can also be quite sensitive to negative comments, particularly when I don't understand the reasoning behind them, that are directed personally at me which has made me a little more withdrawn as well as a fear or rejection. If I'm not sure how someone will react to something then I don't tend to say it unless it's an academic type of thing. Probably my best example of this is during a philosophy debate in class the question was asked 'What good ever comes from war?' and my immediate response was, much to the horror of my classmates 'population control'. I could understand why they didn't like my answer and it's not something I would have written down in an essay, well, if I had then I'd have been a bit more sensitive about it but it irritates me when people refuse valid points because they don't like them yet if I'm in a group of people just talking then I'll generally avoid saying anything that might be taken the wrong way or offend anybody unless I know that they know me well enough to know that I don't mean any offense.
    It's just a hunch so to speak, call it a idea.

    But it's also a fairly common mask I think ILE's can adopt.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php/37205-Soconic-quot-mask-quot-how-it-helps-and-troubles-us?highlight=mask

    Quote Originally Posted by Mask article
    For example, consider an ILE in an LSI "mask". This person was unsure for a long time and fluctuated between the types ILI and LII, because in tests he received with a high probability the type LII, but the descriptions of ILI fit better, yet in the end he could not settle on either type. And only as a result of training in socionics did the person figure out his type, having managed to separate it from his "mask".
    I don't think you're the first person to come around socionics with this question, it's actually fairly common as some ILE/IEE can be easily mistaken for introverts. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

    http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=510&page=5


    Don't take my word for it tho, just a hunch.




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    *rolls 16types dice*

    LII, because ILI is impossibru according to LIE!

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