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Thread: MBTI Visual Identification - physiognomy.me site

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    Default MBTI Visual Identification - physiognomy.me site

    I was browsing through INTP forums and found this interesting site. I disagree with almost all of their celebrity typings (see: Lady Gaga ESTJ), but their method/theory is intriguing enough.

    Anyways, click the scary faces:

    http://physiognomy.me/vfunctions/
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

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    Very interesting.

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    They typed me ISFj, lol.

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    The Ne girl moves around and emotes a shit ton like an Ne-ILE girl I know, the Si guy moves around a hell of a lot like Eminem, I got Oprah as Fe-EIE and she looks, in movements, like an Fe-ESE girl I know... Fi girl's doing kinda similar stuff as an Fi-SEE, though the girl in the pic's big time Introtim, likely Fi-EII... I think they're on to something, though I expect them to fuck shit up when they try to apply it themselves...

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    "From your video we believe you use the judging functions: Fe, Ti

    Your voice has a soothing, elegant, and warming quality to it that we observe in most Fe users. There is a constant emission of polite gesturing that is meant to foster mutual understanding. The hand motions you make have the puppeteer quality to them of Ti, with the deadpan/flat face in moments of processing. As a whole your articulation toggles between pausing unemotionally to process, and speaking emotionally to connect with the audience.

    From the video, it's a bit challenging to see what your perceiving functions are. We are currently revising some of our understandings, hence this is only a very soft estimate, but you appear to be using Ne+Si. Tentative, some possible types for you are ISFJ, INTP or ESFJ.

    A celebrity that reminds me of you is:
    Christina Perri:
    We believe she is Fe(Si), which may not necessarily be your type but you do share the same flavor of Fe+Ti."

    Well they're half right, at least. They really gave no reason for their Ne/Si decision, though.

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    The creators are all 21 years old, and one is a Serbian. They are ripping off socionics, darn Slavic capitalist.
     
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    - John Piper


    Socionics -
    the16types.info

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    Default Physiognomy: The Eight Cognitive Functions

    (i apologize if this is in the wrong section. i was looking for a v.i. board but this is as close as i could find.. ^^)

    Hello,

    I am part of a team that is currently developing a physiognomy methodology tied to cognition. The project is presently in a researching - Beta - phase, where we are seeking to identify patterns among people and their facial, body and vocal expressions. We would like to share with you our present finds and obtain your feedback & ideas, considering many of you have experience in visual identification methods and I believe we could learn a lot from each other. This is a small introduction to our work on the Eight Jungian Functions:





    It may be worthwhile to note that this physiognomy model is based on the animations/movements of the face and body, rather than on static or structural facial features. But physioanalysis is but one dimension of our confirmation; all reads are done via both a psychoanalysis and physioanalysis -- and eventually, we aim, a neurological analysis. We are intent on identifying the real connection between psychology and neuroscience, and our project's eventual goal is to develop an empirical link to Jung's work.

    I am happy to be here and most eager to hear your feedback.
    Thank you. ^_^



    As a note: Our model is neither mbti nor socionics but rather a new jung-based elaboration. It was, and is being, built purely from scratch using mountains of observation. Socionics wasn't utilized in any way in its making... and I honestly don't know if they share any similarities, but I wish to discover how it compares to socionics v.i. hence why I bring it here.
    Last edited by Valkyrie; 05-13-2012 at 03:13 PM.

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    I'm curious what maritsa would think. Also, there would be some disputes amongst the forum populace on the typings of the people in those gifs.

    On the other hand, I do think I'd fit in the Worldview niche thing.

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    I actually made a thread for your site a month ago.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ight=mbti+site
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I actually made a thread for your site a month ago.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ight=mbti+site
    Brilliant! Arigato, Archon.

    Mm, unfortunately, I wasn't around back then to answer questions...
    I guess it's a little redundant but... can this thread still be kept open? o.o
    I hope that maybe more complex discussion can emerge and the actual signals themselves be compared w/ socionics and what other readers have noticed! :3
    Last edited by Valkyrie; 05-13-2012 at 03:23 PM.

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    Yeah I would disagree with most of those examples.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    What is this "team" you are a part of?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Hi,
    Would it be possible to examine some of the examples and what you would consider their type to be?

    And the team is primarily Vangelis, Solio, Function and myself, with mostly myself leading the project.
    I'm not sure how else to answer the question, we don't belong to any other group.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    For the record I have examined your list of typed celebrities, and there are enough factors of convergence with my own typings of the ones I recognize and can type that I would say you do have promise at what you are doing, but before you do any more, you should examine the breadth of Jungian functional theories out there and discern which "school," if you will, your practice and methods fall most in line with. You should know your audience.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Not sure about Ti girl.

    Fi girl looks Fe ego to me.

    Te man, Hugh Laurie, is a pretty sure-fire LSI in my book.

    Oprah is probably EIE so no gripe there.

    Keanu Reeves is definitely an Ne ego, probably IEE or ILE.

    Your Si exemplar looks more like an Se/Ni irrational to me.

    Ne girl could be right, all I can tell for sure is that she's extroverted and probably Si/Ne.

    Se man I'm not sure about but my superficial impression is of a Te/Fi extrovert.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post

    Te man, Hugh Laurie, is a pretty sure-fire LSI in my book.
    I'm definitely with you there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Oprah is probably EIE so no gripe there.
    Some people think she might be IEE. I'm not really sure. But just putting that out there as a point of contention to Valkyrie.

    Keanu Reeves is definitely an Ne ego, probably IEE or ILE.
    Agree.
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    Yeah I think Laurie compares favorably with Chris Langan:

    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    @Gilly I'm glad there is at least some parallel. :3
    I wasn't sure whether there would be any correlation. (btw, is it ok to assume that you use the socionics V.I. discipline for your typings, or is it a personal/experiential paradigm?)

    I believe we (we as in not just my team but all typologists) can crack the code and parallel between cognition and expression. Instead of looking at things in terms of "schools", my philosophy on that is to let the data dictate what direction the model should take. It may resemble an existing model or none at all, but ultimately there is but one truth to the collective human psyche which I believe can be identified objectively.

    Now, using Jungian psychological theory alone does not allow for this to happen easily because one can dispute the nuances in any direction and any one person's interpertation is as valid as the next. But in presenting a (part) empirical element such as visual reading presents an opportunity to eliminate erroneous theoretical deductions.

    For instance, if we only look at things from a psychological platform, we can't really disprove that a certain arrangement of functions is impossible, and the anecdote of a person who firmly believes their psyche operates via using Ti>Ni>Fi>Si cannot be countered satisfactorily. But if each function has been visually identified -- first in those who have it as dominant and where it is clearest -- then it is possible to observe them to confirm whether or not they have that function in place. Having this double-checking system allows a solution to irregularities, and ultimately allows for a better refinement of the psychology of types as well.

    Doing this, we can see the reality of how the functions are truly arranged and which "school" is more right. As an example of this, there are some things we've been able to confirm so far. I started out learning about the MBTI model, but though sheer observation (both psychically and physically) I've come to realize that the rational/irrational dichotomy -- which socionics concurs with -- is very real and even visibly identifiable.

    Another thing I've been able to confirm is that functions operate in pairings. That is to say, the signals of Ti are always accompanied with the signals for Fe, and the eyes of Ni will also move like the eyes of Se, et cetera. Visually they "toggle" as the user engages in either decision-making or data synthesis. This lead to further curiosity about what this may imply psychically, and I've come to realize that the same toggling happens there as well. So for example, Si and Ne are activated together in brainstorming, and the Ti process of data discrimination is followed by Fe emotive articulation meant to elicit impact.


    TL;DR Sorry for long ramble. <<
    Basically, we're letting facts dictate theory, relying tentatively on the JCF model as a general direction to head.

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    My own "typing views" are closer to Socionics than anything else because my methods are almost exclusively dependent on VI and behavioral observations for determining precise type. I can get a feel for someone in writing or by lists of traits etc. like MBTI, but it a person's type doesn't become a "whole piece" in my brain until I can at least see a picture, or video, or most preferably interact with them in real life.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    That's the same approach I take too.
    Withholding verdict until the rhythm of their brain,
    and the way that gives manifestation to their body, becomes visible to you.


    You brought up Chris Langan. That's quite interesting.
    If I'm not mistaken, LSI would translate to TiSe? And would that also be TiSeNiFe?
    I too don't think Langan and Laurie's types are far off (I suspect them to be FeNi and TeNi, respectively) but I find Hugh Laurie more comparable to Robert Downey Jr.





    A cue breakdown of this video:

    0:03 - Searching (possibly Si) Worldview
    0:04 - Se Re-Connect
    0:06 - Searching Ni Worldview
    0:07 - Hands Conducting (articulate function)
    0:09 - Data Synthesis, looking up (both perception functions)
    0:11 - Se Re-Connect, Steady Stare
    0:16 - Ni Drift to the Bottom Left
    0:19 - Se Re-Connect
    0:20 - Eyes toggle (intentional jest. not a cue)
    0:24 - Ni Drift to the Bottom Left
    0:25 - Te Articulation while eyes still in Ni Drift.
    0:30 - Se Re-Connect after having found the words.
    0:33 - Ni Drift to the Bottom Left
    0:36 - Se Re-Connect
    0:38 - Ni Drift to the Bottom Left
    0:39 - Se Re-Connect
    0:42 - Ni Drift to the Bottom Left
    0:45 - Se Re-Connect
    0:49 - Ni Drift to the Bottom Right


    He makes a lot of micro-nods and shakes (which are too subtle to list) as he articulates with a dispassionate voice, indicating Te. In other videos the Te is a lot more prominent, and his whole-face acts as one unit designed to conduct speech and presentation, but done in an emotionless way, even though there is emphasis. A Ti user would have a 'passionate' articulation since the articulate function for them would be Fe, meaning the points of emphasis would be coated with a warming feeling and expression. Hugh's words are flat and blunt, imo..

    I could consider NiTe for him just from this video, due to the strong Ni use.
    TiSe isn't entirely impossible either but a much less likely option, I think.




    A deconstruction of the first minute of this video:

    0:06 - Se Intense Eyes
    0:08 - Ni Drift (towards camera)
    0:09 - Se Connect
    0:11 - Te Face Push
    0:19 - Te Face Push
    0:28 - Te Head Shake
    0:30 - Se Re-Connect
    0:37 - Ni Drift to the Bottom Left
    0:38 - Te Articulation while eyes still in Ni Drift
    0:43 - Ni Drift
    0:48 - Se Re-Connect

    Like Hugh, Robert's articulation is flat and blunt, and the words tumble out of his mouth like rocks. He has a lot more Te use and conducted speech, and less Ni drifting than Hugh from this video, but similar style overall.

    I am curious to know whether you see any resemblance?

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    creepy.

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    Interesting site, but not sure if the typings would be the same in socionics.

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    Well, first of all, leading functions are not divided into specific physio features. As in, you can't say that all Ne look like ENTp or ENFp; that is one mistake your site is doing. Second of all, within each type, like ENTp, there are more than one physiological kind...ones with broader foreheads, ones with skinner eyes, etc.

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    @Gilly - Also, here is a TiSe example and a deconstruction
    to compare against Hugh Laurie's deconstruction.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8IO9L4b2UM
    At least up to 2:02 (because I'm short on time atm)

    0:30 - Se Perk Up
    0:30 - Articulator Face Push "Tiring"
    0:33 - T-Face. Dispassionate & Stone-Like
    0:39 - Articulator Hands, Rigid Body (Discernment Lead)
    0:43 - Fe Face Push & Articulator Exacting Hands (Discernment Lead)
    0:47 - Whole-Body, Whole-Face Involvement (Discernment Lead)
    0:52 - Ti Momentum Halt
    0:53 - Ti/Fe Stop-Start
    0:54 - Compass Lead, Tense Body, Pushing to "Give Birth" to Articulation
    0:57 - Ti Deadpan Face (eye neglected, blinking)
    1:00 - Se Perk Up
    1:06 - Ti Deadpan (eyes neglected, blinking)
    1:08 - Ti Puppetteer Hands
    1:08 - Fe Articulation "Moving the entire premise, all the way over" carries emotional energy and passion.
    1:11 - Fe Push & Exacting Hands - "To Asia"
    1:13 - Ballistic Se Eyes (between "archiological" and "rich")
    1:15 - Se Eyes Lock-On
    1:22 - Slight Ni Drift
    1:24 - Inferior F Smile
    1:34 - Inferior F Smile
    1:40 - Head Shake & Rigid Body (Discernment Lead)
    1:44 - Fe Nodding & Courtesy Laughter
    1:47 - Ti Meticulous Hands
    1:49 - Ti Meticulous Hands
    1:53 - Fe Articulation "Very Humble" - said with emotion and outward-directed warmth.
    1:55 - Fe Articulation "Very Exact" - said with emotion and outward-directed warmth.
    1:57 - Ti Momentum Halt - ("Um") Body pauses to process.
    1:59 - Ti Deadpan & Monotone Voice "Who plays, um"
    2:02 - Ti Deadpan + Fe Conducting Hand

    His voice overall goes meek and soft when he is in Ti Deadpan, but comes back out in moments of passionate and excited Fe. This duality is seen in all Ti dominants and not seen in Hugh Laurie. Also, when Laurie stops to think he does not go into his compass (Ti/Fi) function but rather into his worldview (in his case Ni), whereas all stops Branden makes are deadpan not Ni Drifts.

    Sorry to bombard you with posts though! I'll stop and let you reply now. ^_^; ....>.>

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Well, first of all, leading functions are not divided into specific physio features. As in, you can't say that all Ne look like ENTp or ENFp; that is one mistake your site is doing. Second of all, within each type, like ENTp, there are more than one physiological kind...ones with broader foreheads, ones with skinner eyes, etc.
    We aren't saying that though. We don't base anything off of appearances, but rather on movements. All body types and facial structures (forehead sizes, eye sizes/shapes) are capable of being all types, more or less.

    Though in some cases, a person's face can become "perma-locked" at a certain look due to the way their cognition contracts the muscles of their face. In such cases it may be possible to tell functions apart via still images, but mostly we rely on animations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    We aren't saying that though. We don't base anything off of appearances, but rather on movements. All body types and facial structures (forehead sizes, eye sizes/shapes) are capable of being all types, more or less.

    Though in some cases, a person's face can become "perma-locked" at a certain look due to the way their cognition contracts the muscles of their face. In such cases it may be possible to tell functions apart via still images, but mostly we rely on animations.
    Even then, what may appear on video may be different in person or situational depending how a person feels, and other circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Even then, what may appear on video may be different in person or situational depending how a person feels, and other circumstances.
    Of course.
    As a fellow reader I'm sure you know this too. :3
    Care must be taken to properly judge the situation and whether a person is being pressured, feeling unnatural, or is in their comfort zone (etc).

    But that itself is irrelevant to the material I posted, isn't it?
    It is more or less a general stab at the concept of visual reading itself, which I'm pretty sure you're not averse to.... *scratches head* o.o

    Maybe this is a test of some sort!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    Of course.
    As a fellow reader I'm sure you know this too. :3
    Care must be taken to properly judge the situation and whether a person is being pressured, feeling unnatural, or is in their comfort zone (etc).

    But that itself is irrelevant to the material I posted, isn't it?
    It is more or less a general stab at the concept of visual reading itself, which I'm pretty sure you're not averse to.... *scratches head* o.o
    There are too many external behavioral consistencies to find the "typical" attitude of the individual especially when filmed; for instance I type the guy you type as a Ti a TeSi because he presents himself in such a way to come off "likeable" LSE tend to want people to like them so they aren't likely to do something intense especially in something that involves their profession; you already have Richard Gere typed wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    There are too many external behavioral consistencies to find the "typical" attitude of the individual especially when filmed; for instance I type the guy you type as a Ti a TeSi because he presents himself in such a way to come off "likeable" LSE tend to want people to like them so they aren't likely to do something intense especially in something that involves their profession; you already have Richard Gere typed wrong.
    But I never typed Richard Gere, or heard of him til now... *scratches head*
    Did you mean someone else? (taking a quick look at Gere, he's likely some Ni/Si lead with Fe auxiliary, but this is just a rough estimate)

    The TeSi you're referring to is Brendan Farser?
    I find that Ti dominants are a lot more competent and wielding Fe to come across likable.
    Te dominants rarely care for social acceptance, and are prone to be bulls in a china-house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    But I never typed Richard Gere, or heard of him til now... *scratches head*
    Did you mean someone else? (taking a quick look at Gere, he's likely some Ni/Si lead with Fe auxiliary, but this is just a rough estimate)

    The TeSi you're referring to is Brendan Farser?
    I find that Ti dominants are a lot more competent and wielding Fe to come across likable.
    Te dominants rarely care for social acceptance, and are prone to be bulls in a china-house.
    Wrong person, sorry, I meant Keanu Reeves is an Si

    Robyn Gibb is Ni

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZurEFD3Awk

    Robyn Wright Penn is Fi

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g72wmAiTkdA

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    Gilly and I generally agree on celebrity typings, including the one's he commented on. Personally, I type Downey Jr. as ESTp, so yes Laurie (Ti leading) and him should come off similarly.

    Although I do not agree with said typings, I found some of the theoretical explanation interesting (The Physiognomy tab and associated links).
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    @ArchonAlarion - Ah, I see. So SeTi and TiSe, that's interesting. I quite respect your deductions, actually. I've been wrong in the past and know it's important to keep an open mind. What is most important is that parallels are being drawn consistently. I think the exact details aren't as important at first as the aim to come to a unified perception.

    I see a lot of untapped potential in the prospect of visual reading, but it is such an anecdotal practice that no strong consensus seems to exist among practitioners. But if people made an effort to work together to come up with a consensual perspective, and mapped out in detail their methodology - one that can also be systematically taught/communicated to others, and be consistent in itself, there would be an avenue for objectifying the theory.

    So with that in mind, I'd be more than willing to try and collaborate with some of you and accommodate to your understandings. Yield, give & take, if the similarities are enough, until there is resonance. More than anything, that would be ideal.

    Um, I'm curious, how is it that you come to the conclusion of SeTi? Like, what do you and Gilly look for in identifying the functions?
    Or do you identify the person not by functions but as a whole appearance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayley View Post
    Hi Valkyrie I think it was you on the Physiognomy website who typed me as a possible FeNeTiSi type with outer wheel of Ti/Fe or perhaps even Fe(Ni). I disagreed with the Si part as possible second function as I did not relate at all to the Si description particularly because I am not nostalgic, nor particulary excited about recognising familiar things or have any difficulties with time management etc etc.

    I have always believed that the way we use our body, voice and face are a more useful tool in typing than stationary facial features and therefor remain interested in your work and hope that it will prove to be a useful tool in typing people.
    Hi Shay!
    Yep, and the concept of the site - reading via expressions and not static facial features - will always remain the same, but the methodology is entirely debatable. It is still a very new project (thus far 4 months old) and the first draft of articles were written by me. But it is not dependent on me or my own perception. It is, ideally, an open-project where I hope we can try and keep trying until we hone in on the actual reality and connection between cognition and expression. *smiles*

    As such I apologize if my typing was not fitting to your psychology. o.o
    We still have a ways to go before we can narrow down to individual types with consistency using only a bit of footage. For me I would say an hour or two of real-life interaction is usually enough to get a surefire read of a person. Sometimes it happens in minutes though! Other times I see some of the elements clearly but not the rest. Still learning..

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Wrong person, sorry, I meant Keanu Reeves is an Si

    Robyn Gibb is Ni

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZurEFD3Awk

    Robyn Wright Penn is Fi

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g72wmAiTkdA
    Ah, I see. Hmm, Robyn Gibb's eyes are covered by glasses. I can't tell apart his perception functions.
    But the way his body moves is very Perception-Lead. Though he also has a lot of Momentum (Ne/Se cue).
    Oh wait, just googled his eyes and looked at another video, I think he's Ne(Ti)... hmm.
    What things do you look for to identify Ni?

    Robyn Wright Penn looks interesting. Probably a Discernment (T/F) Lead, so I agree with you there.
    Going further, I believe she is an articulator (Te/Fe) lead. She reminds me of Angelina Jolie and Madonna.
    I'd estimate her type to be Te dominant, but I'm still thinking. :3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrie View Post
    @ArchonAlarion - Ah, I see. So SeTi and TiSe, that's interesting. I quite respect your deductions, actually. I've been wrong in the past and know it's important to keep an open mind. What is most important is that parallels are being drawn consistently. I think the exact details aren't as important at first as the aim to come to a unified perception.

    I see a lot of untapped potential in the prospect of visual reading, but it is such an anecdotal practice that no strong consensus seems to exist among practitioners. But if people made an effort to work together to come up with a consensual perspective, and mapped out in detail their methodology - one that can also be systematically taught/communicated to others, and be consistent in itself, there would be an avenue for objectifying the theory.

    So with that in mind, I'd be more than willing to try and collaborate with some of you and accommodate to your understandings. Yield, give & take, if the similarities are enough, until there is resonance. More than anything, that would be ideal.
    Yes, I could be wrong too and would like to discuss more with you. I might make a point by point commentary on your theory. I'll leave an analysis of the visual portion alone for now because it is quite subjective at the moment.

    Um, I'm curious, how is it that you come to the conclusion of SeTi? Like, what do you and Gilly look for in identifying the functions?
    Or do you identify the person not by functions but as a whole appearance?
    I identify people as a whole as much as possible, including visual information.

    I do see Downey exhibiting the Se "Laser eye" in this video. I see a good deal of the Ti "deadening" too...




    Anyways, those aren't satisfactory behaviors for typing in themselves, but yeah... there is something to VI.

    edit: I slightly misread your above post. You type Downey as ISTj, not ENFj, idk where I got that from. No matter!
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    I type him SLE-Ti.

    Anyway, I like what you're doing. I really like the Oprah thing and the Se eyes, totally true! All the SLEs I know do that locking thing and they do that eyebrow thing that Robert Downey Jr does where they kind of furrow a bit and look all serious.

    I don't know about myself. I feel like I look around a lot when I'm talking. I mean, I know I'm expressive too but I think I look off into the distance too and don't really look at the person I'm talking to until I'm done talking. Then when they're talking, I look right into their eyes the entire time.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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