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Thread: Socionics MMO

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    Default Socionics MMO

    It would be cool to have an MMORPG that was structured/balanced around the 8 functions and 16 types, although not necessarily using the explicit Socionics jargon. When creating a character, you'd choose a main class (The dominant function), and then a secondary class (the auxiliary function). I think it would be cool if the classes worked out so that contrary classes (functions) would not work well together, and complementary ones would. Here's what I brainstormed:


    T – Equipment
    F – Players/NPC’s
    S – Direct Effects
    N – Indirect Effects

    I - Long term, strategy creation
    E - Short term, strategy adaptation

    Ti – Item Creation, Crafting (Making custom items to fit a personal strategy; Having gear with buffs you can switch in/out)

    Te – Logistics, mercantile (Minimizing equipment costs; having the best gear for yourself and your team depending on the situation)

    Fi – Long term individual buffs/nerfs, summoned companions (Big buffs and nerfs that affect an individual character for a long period of time, making your strategy revolve around that relationship; summoning animal companions)

    Fe – Short term group buffs/nerfs (quick buffs/nerfs for groups of characters, good for adapting to changing circumstances and group dynamics)

    Si – Enchantments, permanent effects (Permanent or very long term effects that allow you to shape the environment to your needs; Permanently enchanting zones to receive benefits when there)

    Se – Direct Damage (mundane), short term combat buffs and nerfs (Buffing the damage for an upcoming attack; "intimidation" abilities)

    Ni - Illusion (Classic illusion/control type spells; long term effects)

    Ne – “Reveal” spells, scouting, ? (Not sure exactly where to go for Ne, although I want it to be short term/adaptive and indirect)
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    Oh hell no, lol. I dont want to be a bard =/

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    What about a Bard-Illusionist?

    But yeah, I'm sure many people at this point have preferred playstyles that won't match up exactly here. I was trying to map the functions to classic MMO builds, but obviously it isn't valid anyway. Just for fun.

    Also, you wouldn't necessarily be a "bard." I'm using the classic play-styles here, but only in function. The standard fantasy/sci-fi aesthetics are optional. For instance, "spells" could be substituted with "high technology," groups buffs could be charismatic inspiration, magic, telepathy, etc.
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    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
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    Fe makes me think of shaman.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    What about a Bard-Illusionist?

    But yeah, I'm sure many people at this point have preferred playstyles that won't match up exactly here. I was trying to map the functions to classic MMO builds, but obviously it isn't valid in anyway. Just for fun.
    haha, dont get me wrong. I like your ideas. I just hate hate hate bards

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    Can anyone come up with better ideas for the Ti, Ni, and Ne?
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    I can, but I'm keeping them to myself, because I'm trying to make a game of my own and these ideas have real value. You never know... you might see an effective replica of your idea on Kickstarter if you are unwary...

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    Paranoid...
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


    Socionics -
    the16types.info

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    Creepy-Snaps

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    It would be cool to have an MMORPG that was structured/balanced around the 8 functions and 16 types, although not necessarily using the explicit Socionics jargon. When creating a character, you'd choose a main class (The dominant function), and then a secondary class (the auxiliary function). I think it would be cool if the classes worked out so that contrary classes (functions) would not work well together, and complementary ones would. Here's what I brainstormed:


    T – Equipment
    F – Players/NPC’s
    S – Direct Effects
    N – Indirect Effects

    I - Long term, strategy creation
    E - Short term, strategy adaptation

    Ti – Item Creation, Crafting (Making custom items to fit a personal strategy; Having gear with buffs you can switch in/out)

    Te – Logistics, mercantile (Minimizing equipment costs; having the best gear for yourself and your team depending on the situation)

    Fi – Long term individual buffs/nerfs, summoned companions (Big buffs and nerfs that affect an individual character for a long period of time, making your strategy revolve around that relationship; summoning animal companions)

    Fe – Short term group buffs/nerfs (quick buffs/nerfs for groups of characters, good for adapting to changing circumstances and group dynamics)

    Si – Enchantments, permanent effects (Permanent or very long term effects that allow you to shape the environment to your needs; Permanently enchanting zones to receive benefits when there)

    Se – Direct Damage (mundane), short term combat buffs and nerfs (Buffing the damage for an upcoming attack; "intimidation" abilities)

    Ni - Illusion (Classic illusion/control type spells; long term effects)

    Ne – “Reveal” spells, scouting, ? (Not sure exactly where to go for Ne, although I want it to be short term/adaptive and indirect)
    So the only way you can do damage is with Se? So if you don't have an aggressor in your party for combat, you're screwed?

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    I would think that this stuff works better to alter the costs of learning skills related to the IM elements. In other words, Sociotype alters the speed of learning.
     
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    Hehe Poli and I had fun doing this before. I would categorize the functions like this:


    Te: Te is melee attacks.

    Ti: Buffs & Debuffs.

    Si: Shields, protection spells.

    Se: Crowd Control.

    Fe: Group Heals.

    Fi: Single-target heals.

    Ni: Spell damage.

    Ne: Ranged damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    So the only way you can do damage is with Se? So if you don't have an aggressor in your party for combat, you're screwed?
    No. You can do damage with any class. Se just gets special "class" abilities that are focused around direct damage. Other classes may have some direct damage abilities (Ni the least), but Se provides the most, and is a specialist in this play-style.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I can, but I'm keeping them to myself, because I'm trying to make a game of my own and these ideas have real value. You never know... you might see an effective replica of your idea on Kickstarter if you are unwary...
    I doubt it. The most valuable aspect of the idea would be the general structure: 8 classes, choose a major class, then choose a minor that the major allows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    haha, dont get me wrong. I like your ideas. I just hate hate hate bards
    Jadae you can be an arcane archer with me. It's like a bard, minus the gayness, plus cool weapons and spells.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Jadae you can be an arcane archer with me. It's like a bard, minus the gayness, plus cool weapons and spells.
    haha, okay.

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    Instead of using IM as character classes, you could use it to replace attributes like strength & intelligence and so on. It of course would only work in a game that was based largely on social factors. Fe = acting or persuasion, Fi honor or loyalty, Se authority and willpower, Si, handiness and hardiness, Ti understanding & deduction, Te organization and leverage, and so on.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
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    Socionics -
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    I'ma ninja.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    I'ma ninja.
    Dont steal my cookies in the night

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    Ninjas have no honor. I promise nothing. Hiiiya!
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Sniff

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    I'll type some League of Legends characters so you can see potential correlations with your functions.
    If you google these you can see the mechanics and style of each character. There are tons of videos and lore.
    Generally AD carries(group leader with crowd control ability and excellent 1v1 skill) are Se or Te dominant. Often Glass cannons for the ranged ones.
    The tactical position fighters are more LSI
    Asassins tend to be SLI or SLE-Ti
    Stealth has an association with Si.
    The League has two main factions, Noxius (dark place, powerplays, Ni-Se peak) and Demacia (bright, justice, honor etc, Delta's and Alphas, smattering of all types)
    Ionians are small city states reminescent of japan. There are several other smaller factions (barbarians etc)
    The neutral ninjas? They serve to keep the balance in check. Ti-LSI Batman esque?


    Ashe: Barbarian Queen:SLE-TI?
    Tryndamere: Se-SLE (Barbarian King like Khal Drogo from game of thrones) alt/LSE
    Gangplank: SLE Pirate, basically blackbeard
    Pantheon: LSI-Se Spartan who lives for battle of any kind.
    Caitlyn:LSI Sheriff
    Graves:Se SEE/SLE Alt LSI
    Talon: Sle-Ti (Alt SLI) Noxian
    Jax: LSI?
    Twisted Fate: SEE or EIE Card shark, gambler. Gambit from X-men.
    Wukong: SEE-Fi? Monkey fighter trained by Master Yi.
    Corki:LIE
    Ezreal: LIE or ILI Te Demacian
    Master Yi: SLI? Japanese style.
    Urgot: SLE: looks like the baron from Dune movie. Noxian
    Kogmaw: A hungry void beast. LIE/SLE/ILE?
    Chogath: ILE?
    Olaf: SLE alt ESE
    Kayle:ESI: the judicator alt LSE

    Sion: LSE (Hes basically Conan/Arnold swartzenegger
    Shen: SLI? Neutral Party
    Xin: ?auto attack assasin, tireless warior,

    Warwick: ILE?
    Singed ILE? both have Fi polr?
    Annie:ILE

    Shaco:ILE/IEE He's the joker
    Singed ILE? Mad chemist
    Kassadin:LII
    Twitch: ILE
    Lux:IEE:Fi? Demacian


    Karma:EII spirit bonds, healing, this character is basically a shining example of the Fi Lasers! Janna's student
    Janna: EII?
    Soraka:EII Or ESE-SI Cursed Warwick
    Sona: SEI
    Teemo: SEI?
    Fiora: ESE

    Orianna: ILI
    Malzahar: Ni IEI Alt Ni-ILI: A born prophet/seer. Reminds me of Freiza from DBZ. Has a short summoned pet and lots of spell damage.
    Leblanc: Ni IEI Noxian "The deciever"
    Karthus: EIE? A lich who loves combat. Skeletor lol.
    Jarvan:EIE or LSE King of Demacia
    Garen: LSE? Justice knight cheeseball.
    Swain:EIE Ni? (noxian)

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    Some random thoughts...

    Ti: the ability to understand systems
    Fi: the ability to understand people
    Te: the ability to manage systems
    Fe: the ability to manage people
    Ni: the ability to understand trends
    Ne: the ability to explore
    Si: the ability to heal
    Se: the ability to harm
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Si: the ability to heal
    Se: the ability to harm
    YEAH, THIS ISNT BIASED AT ALL
    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Some random thoughts...

    Ti: the ability to understand systems
    Fi: the ability to understand people
    Te: the ability to manage systems
    Fe: the ability to manage people
    Ni: the ability to understand trends
    Ne: the ability to explore
    Si: the ability to heal
    Se: the ability to harm
    I can understand system but I'm constantly trying to understand people make sense of their behaviors, that is one of my purposes in life; I think Ti makes systems. You took your idea of what those types are placed it into this system that you've made...Ne...perceives qualities, Ti, makes systems of them.

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    I've been working on this issue for a long time and have been wrestling with a lot of it various elements. So take the following post more of as a brain dump than anything serious. A lot this was developed from attempting to observe games through the lens of socionics and the various information elements. So please excuse any sweeping generilzations about information elements as well as potential horrible mistypings of internet quasi-celebrities.

    It must be first stated that the entirety of socionics has to be applied exponentially to any case. So if one were to take a game there are at least 8 elements which must be considered, and each of those 8 elements is then further broken down by the 8 elements.

    : The system of the game. The actual building of the various parts, the mechanics. FPS, RTS, MMO. Critics complain about the technical aspects. Watch Zero Punctuation for what I believe is an INTj criticism.
    : The context of the game. This is almost the same as the system but with genres. Horror, adventure, action. There are many mechanical variations of a genre, you can have an FPS horror like Doom or an FPS gunwank like COD.
    : The mood of the game. Ties in with Ni to some degree, the "romance" of the game. While "romance" seems to be the realm of Ni this refers to the Mood. Call of Duty is designed to be an FPS to be played in multi-player. This also involves group dynamics, single player, mmo, multiplayer, 2 player etc. Party game or solo adventure.
    : Hmm, this one is hard. Internal Statics of a Field. Could refer to morals? I suppose Grand Theft Auto, particularly Hot Coffee would be a case of and moral guardian ship. My own is weak so I cannot speak much on this function.
    : The feel of the game. IMMERSION. How does the game make you feel. If the graphics are horrible and physically assault you (Kane and Lynch Dog Days, see Zero Punctuation) External Dynamics of a Field. This is the real reason people have a problem with 3d and motion controls, there is no feedback and therefore it leaves the of the gaming experience awkward and etc etc.
    : The experience of the game. I think the Jimquisition guy is an ESFp and all of his critiques are about how the game is boring or not boring, or about how it can be as difficult as etc. This also has to do with difficulty and not actual experience points, which is a Te algorithmic function in the system portion of gaming.
    : Novelty, Simple enough. If a game introduces a new mechanic, or an old mechanic in a new way. The original Portal game was a good example of a novel mechanic.
    : Phhht, Price? Profit? Potential? I suppose the value of the game. The game as a product, as an object itself and its external dynamics. So a game will make lots of money it will be successful.

    So you can more of less see 100% of the game industries problems wrapped up in the 8 functions of the game itself. If old repetitive un-novel (poor ) but somewhat immersive/repetitive (mediocre ) game with 13 year olds who are apparently having intercourse with your 3rd world epithet next of kin female (negative ) based entirely on their ability to react () faster because they're frothing at the mouth twitchy, offends people with controversial scenes like the "infamous" No Russian (bad ) but makes a lot of money ().


    Mechanics of the Game,

    If the mechanics of a game are perfect and the game has a novel approach and makes you laugh () like Portal, this automatically removes the need for overly reactive-ness () and any puzzle can be solved by simple repeating it. So practice, experience over time (). This cancels out any difficulty curve. Looking at a game like Portal one can also understand the process of handling PoLR functions, in this case. There cannot be any kind of difficulty setting in Portal because its a puzzle game and there isn't any Sliding scale of health () for making reactive () mistakes. You either find the novel answer to the puzzle, or you don't, in which case you get to repeat it without any fanfare thus maintaining the immersion. The black humour involved helps to counteract the seriousness of the whole thing (for ).

    I agree with the OP but just to make sure I'm going to not look at their functions and remember my own. This is now within the game itself, within the game as a field, these functions do not shift once set without changing the whole game or the game balance, hence External Statics of the Field (Ti).

    Combat Systems: <<Need Help With the Functions within the system of the game, arguably all combat is a reactive sport and therefore this would be >>
    : Precision. Reducing the gap between min and max damage. Also direct crowd control. This is the framing/limiting device. So the thing that would counteract mobility would have to be Stun, and also counter-mechanics. Think Magic Gathering blue. Screwing around with the mechanics of the game itself. Tactics
    : Mobility, not simply moving across the overmap but also more metaphorical. Te deals with algorithms and profitability. In LoL the Te runes would be Experience, Gold and Movespeed. Because you can theoretically max out your item build and reach top level per game the only real profitable runes are Movespeed, because there are no diminishing returns. Strategy/Logistics.
    : Damage but also Damage reduction. This would be direct physical attacks but also shields/armor.
    : Skills, This would include armor piercing, poisions, soft spots, weak spots, bleeding. I suppose must counter . Consider that the external dynamics of a field (the body) is suddenly altered by an external object using force, the external statics of an object. Neither of them are damage or healing directly. An sword gets blocked by an shield while an heal gets countered by an bleed/poison.
    : Aura, Fear, terror. : Morale, Horror The subtle difference between fear and trembling. Terror, as in terrible or terrifying. A volcano can be a terrible thing, both positive and negative. Although we usually associate horror with an internal emotion. Which separates horror from "startling" the real problem with Doom 3 was that it didn't scare you like Silent Hill, it was just dark and spooky but it didn't make you fear the dark.
    : Anything over Time : Chance and critical. These two functions have to do with magic which more of less

    This also leads into players. If you are playing a game for fun then what exactly makes it fun for you depends on your psychological fulfilment. egos are really sensitive and capable of making tiny micro-shifts on the controller. Koreans are typed as ESFjs by Gulenko and you can see their playstyle in RTS games especially Star Craft. Hyper active APM (actions per minute) they can control every single aspect unit and micromanage. The counter to this is to program an ai to do it all, which would be an Ni thing. Ironically of all the non-S egos it is ENTjs who are least likely to play these types of games, and indeed any game at all. Mostly because of the undervaluing of . Personally I played Super Smash brothers as Marth and only ever used C-Stick. I could beat just about anyone with practice but stood no chance against any ST with even the slightest semblance of the more advanced techniques (wave dashing etc). Otherwise I saw a lot of ENFj, INTp and INFps being competent at Starcraft in computer labs.


    Random Information Elements/Connections:
    N=Magic
    F=Energy
    S=Damage
    T=Vitality

    On Hit Mechanics:
    Mana burn: /. Also why illusions can canonically mana burn and crit.
    Crit/Chance on hit = A contemporary of Usually you get a choice between more damage or a crit chance. Or between either of those and a damage over time effect or a slow
    Status Effects are the realm of So it could be said that if an action applies a debuff it is necessarily a

    I'll reverse the mechanics to make it easier to decipher. I'll use items from DOTA.
    Buriza: Chance for Crit for a specific %
    MKB: Chance on hit to ministun and static damage
    Skadi: Slow buff placer
    Lifesteal: % of an attack returns health to attacker
    Stygian: Armor reduction

    Another discovery just now: Anything that has a static amount is anything that is a percent is . Typically percent wins out over static. An item that causes +10 damage is better than an item that causes +10% damage until the base damage is 101.

    This is where more confusion arises because within a combat system F is energy, ie mana, which would necessitate T be health. So magic would be F based, which makes sense because F functions are converters. Its in the very symbols themselves are complete, logical but the missing pieces of betray the fact that a part of the completion was lost for the sake of conversion. I.e. matter to energy conversion.Therefore the fuel for magic is F, the delivery system would be in the form of the perceiving functions.

    Outside of the combat system Fi would be the character's reputation, Te would be their gold amount, Se their outward appearance...
    If Te is mobility, Fi is acceleration while Fe is simply distance. This also links to how ENTjs accelerate physical activities while INTjs maintain steady pace. INTjs can jog for a long distance, ENTj will accelerate until they pull a hamstring.

    A Case study on a particular field/object:Health Bar.
    External Statics of Objects. How it shows up on screen. The health bar typically does not change its appearance, nor is it removed. Except for some games (Megaman) which increase the size to represent growth a function.
    External Statics of Field: Where the health bar is and its presence. Usually can be changed by requires tweeking the system mechanics via UI options. Even then, the health bar is not removed as an aspect of the game. Characters cannot chose to not have a health bar, it would cause the entire game to change. Hence this is static.
    Internal statics of objects: refers not only to the current maximum health, which can change based on growth but also to the maximum possible maximum (e.g. max possible hp is 99999)
    Internal Statics of Objects: Once again I have no idea how this would work. Perhaps when health = 0 player = dead? This would be a relationship. You are as dead as your health bar says you are.
    External Dynamics of Fields: Probably the growth part. How much a health bar can grow, if indeed it does grow.
    External Dynamics of Objects: Where the health bar is going/what it is doing. Typically it's going nowhere and its displaying the current health. However, this doesn't do justice to the function which would actually refer to algorithms, profit and growth. This would be better suited to exp bar, experience goes up at a certain rate, defined by an algorithm. Therefore rest up your soul () and getting killed will cost you a piece of your soul which can usually be removed by paying a cash value Works with health as well, you can usually purchase heals.
    Internal Dynamics of Fields. The current health, usually represented by a symbol, so the actual bar or the numbers adjusting up or down.


    P.S. I couldn't sleep with all this buzzing around in my head, if I've offended people feel free to <<insert random offence >> yourself. Also I didn't mean to "Constructive" the post prior this one any way to remove that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbid View Post
    ...
    Nice post man. I agree with your assessments, especially of zero punctuation and Portal (LII integral). Considering my opening post more, I'm going to revise the functional-game associations I originally came up with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    YEAH, THIS ISNT BIASED AT ALL
    NAAH
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    The real message about a socionics MMO is the fact that socionics MMO is real life. Welcome to the game of life. Any game created to fully integrate socionics would have to extend into reality as a whole. There are entire College courses on Real World game mechanics, like Skinner's box etc. I remember a radio broadcast about game mechanics in real life, such as gaining achievement points for brushing your teeth every day, which led to the obvious problems of reward for mandatory activities.

    Socionics is a very nice bridge for philosophers, allowing them to integrate any aspect of reality into any other aspect of reality. Think about the article http://socionics.us/theory/information.shtml
    = internal statics of objects
    = external statics of objects
    = external dynamics of objects
    = internal dynamics of objects
    = internal dynamics of fields
    = external dynamics of fields
    = external statics of fields
    = internal statics of fields

    The mathematical/practical links between any two elements is staggeringly simple. Consider the physics formula Work = Force / Distance. = / . Now think of as an empty container, filled with becomes . If you work, you can displace a boulder. Lets add acceleration, in this case . On a line graph would look like distance while is acceleration, I forget the link to the russian website that displays this, I believe it can be found from Socionics.us somewhere. If you work to push a boulder, up a hill, now you have potential energy . Consider a canister (containers are because they are the external limits of a field) of gasoline . Gasoline and any chemical reaction are linked to emotions. Emotions are just the firing of neurons using electricity and chemicals in the brain. So any chemical compound can be linked to IF it can be in a reaction. Noble gasses that do not react are given designation, and hence nobility is linked with naturally because nobility is usually static. The shifting of static elements causes a change in the entire system: That can of gasoline is pure production. If it is used properly, requiring some kind of mechanical system of an engine etc. However, if the can is ignited using an external source, (fire is also ) then you can see how the symbol reflects the piece of the can being removed/converted. This is also why is linked with conversion, also on the Socionics.us website, go look it up. Not only did the canister ignite it exploded producing a shockwave , the external statics of the object are now different, the object no longer exists. The external statics of the field are now different, the no-longer existing object cannot perform its function . The Internal statics of the field changed it is no longer referred or called a can.

    When a person commits some heinous crime against humanity they are called a "monster" or something non-human. is NOT humanity, animality or any other entity. is the relationship. Therefore humans will relate to the function with the idea of humanity.

    A more gruesome example, it's been happening more often recently so its trendy. Lets take a shooting in a public area, say a shopping mall. An assailant is moving through a mall inflicting damage . The counter-strike force (Typical ISTj police stereotype) asks bystanders about the un-sub . "They've gone insane (emotions) I don't even know what they're capable of" Later the news caster will talk about how the mall turned into a warzone . If the assailants detonated a bomb and actually turned the mall into a pile of rubble it would change the structure, the external statics of the field. However, because it only changed the internals of the field, meaning the subject, the mall turned into something else via a relationship. Someone standing in the mall could feel as though they were in a war zone. It could also evoke a flashback for one of the counter-strike force officers. Post traumatic stress disorder can be considered Post Event Relationship disorder. Wherein soldiers performing their duty commited some act but the balance of the equation was too much in the direction of logic. Psycho-therapy is not about simply talking about what happened but letting emotions manifest.

    I've been avoiding Si/Ni but I'll include them now. would be the physical memory and typically soldiers would hallucinate to balance the equation. What they really need to do is balance the so they can face the enormity of what they did to fully understand the essence of it all. However, if they find out that what they did wasn't nearly as terrible as someone else, it helps, this is the solution of . However, too much repetition of solution changes a person physically. They are no longer "people" they are now permanently soldiers, physically . Without an outlet for the physical violence they have difficulty re-integrating into a mostly society.

    Disclaimer: Most of what I know about PTSD and military service comes from CBC Radio 1 broadcast Afghanada "depicting scenarios faced by soldiers currently serving in Afghanistan and also upon returning home" and personal contact with military personnel. I fully respect and support the role of soldiers and make no claim as to personal qualification regarding medical treatment of psychological problems.


    Back to the original issue of game theory for the real world. If you can apply socionics elements to games, you can reverse the entire thing and apply game theory to socionics and real life. At this point it is impossible to continue without heading into the realm of metaphysics. It must be said that every human is willy-nilly a meta physician. From a philosopher's standpoint psychology and technology have been of tremendous use and have accomplished great things in the recent decades. However, just as when walking one must put the left foot forward, followed by the right foot. The left foot of scientific investigation () must be balanced by the right foot of philosophy (). After we know what we're doing, we then have to know what to do. Socionics is still in its infancy. This has been touted by most modern Socionists, most of whom are of the Alpha Quadra. Fortunately V. Gulenko has produced more than enough material, properly conveyed by this very site, to create an adequate philosophical understanding of the Socion.

    Instead of looking at the world from an Alpha perspective, defining the machinations of the psyche, inter type relations, I will attempt to depict the relationships and the choices people SHOULD make. Reading the original article by C.G. Jung about and the conflict between the two is forthcoming. The predominant explanations of socionics have absolutely no explanation of what should actually be done about it . It does require a certain amount of , as do all things non-tangible. However, just as the functions were earlier explained to interchange, so too can a explanation comport with via .

    Consider the Clock of the Socion. According to a macro relations it is simpler to understand any relationship. Any type relinquishes power to the next type in line, but also receives power from the prior type. Those who have difficulty with their relationships usually have a lack of understanding that the cycles repeat and power will come around again. Lets take an ENTj, supervised by an ISTp. The various mechanics of supervision relationships tells one NOTHING about how to solve the problem, because it does not even define that there is a problem, only that there is a logical, and very dry reasoning that it causes "psychological pressure." The real problem with ENTj-ISTp is that an ENTj will work hard, pull all their resources and usually gets screwed. While ISTps seemingly do nothing and get everything. No matter how much people argue the effectiveness of ISTps to perform tasks, this is still a grave injustice, or is it? Consider the following, ISTps are the end of the Socion, meaning they are the end of society. If all of the world's problems were solved, everyone was fed, clothed and sheltered, what would people do? Well they would put on performances. The most elegant and beautiful types, to watch, are ISTps. Or if technology were so advanced that everything in the world would be done by it, who would be there to get paid for pushing a button? ISTps are the only type in the socion who would be willing to get paid for doing nothing. So if not for ISTps to be there to enjoy the fruits of ENTj labour, the ENTjs would be labouring in vain. Vanity is the greatest sin for ENTjs, it means nothingness, non-accomplishment the very antithesis of their primary functions.

    This also very nicely explains exactly everyone's relationships. Left rings of benefit/supervision are seen as ridiculously difficult, while right rings are ones of protection. So an ENTj hates an ISTp, but an ESFp protects an INFj. To solve your supervision relationship Left rings of supervision must accept that their supervisor will get everything from them and thats the way it should be. Right rings of supervision must accept that their protectee supervisee is doing the right thing and needs no interference. Natural supervision relationships can be explained like this. ISTj male protects ESFp female, ESFp male protects INFj female. ENTj male protects INFp female. The male must be more masculine according to the involutionary/evolutionary dichotomy. ESFj female will protect ISTp female, who is very masculine and lacking friends. While an ESFj male would cause immense friction to an ISTp male because the ISTp is more masculine.

    Certain power games can be played using these dynamics. In order to defeat a delta, a gamma can empower an alpha. The best way to screw an ISTp is to empower the next in line to have power, meaning ENTps. This is naturally done by the enthusiast ESFj who are their activators but also happens to be ISTp's supervisor. A super-ego relationship will protect you from your supervisor and you can protect them from their supervisor. This however, requires knowledge of the system. This is the principle of prophecy. Those who know how a system works or how an event will turn out gain the ability to change the outcomes. It is common practice for ignorant tyrants to render some form of "They that don't know history are doomed to repeat it." Yet no one finishes the proverb. They that know history are doomed to resent it. They that study history are doomed to recite it, they that resent history are doomed to re-write it.

    There is also the problem of lopsidedness. While many socionists wish to believe that the socion is balanced, it isn't. Not only in numbers but also in power. Certain types are simply more powerful. Of all the typing systems only the Enneagram admits this, regarding 8s. This seems to continuously be a problem in socionics that enormously baffles me, as if people simply don't want to change, to improve. "We must view with profound respect the infinite capacity of the human mind to resist the inroads of useful knowledge." - Thomas Lounsbury

    The whole post became weird, but the point I'm trying to make is ultimately about humility. The people who avoid a thread because its about games fail to see the divine nature of everything. The pattern of everything is that patterns pattern (using pattern as a verb) everything begets everything. If people create a system within an MMO, of a real world it is the result of the system from which they themselves spring. Therefore this judgement can be reversed. Just as a game has rules, and in order to win the game one must win according to the rules, so too does our life have rules, not mere mechanical limitations. There is no such thing as "cheating" because unlike any man made game the game of life is perfect in its score keeping. The natural laws cannot be broken, cannot be cheated.

    Why do people play games? To enjoy the experience with their friends? Indeed. The point of an MMO is not to win something but to enjoy the experience. MMOs are perfect tool to teach Zen, people find the fantastical supernatural powers within the most ordinary actions. However, all man made MMOs are strange in that they have no win condition, the entire premise is to keep you playing forever, at the cost of what is really valuable. Beware of searching for a prize that never arrives, because the reality is in the present, but also beware of the process which has no end, has no reason.

    Only those who are as little ones are privy to the kingdoms of truth. To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; to receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; to give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Damn dude keep going! I disagree wholeheartedly with your idea that the functions exist as external categories of information (as the first half of your post conveys), but as a whole, I like where you are going.

    "The people who avoid a thread because its about games fail to see the divine nature of everything. The pattern of everything is that patterns pattern (using pattern as a verb) everything begets everything. If people create a system within an MMO, of a real world it is the result of the system from which they themselves spring. Therefore this judgement can be reversed. Just as a game has rules, and in order to win the game one must win according to the rules, so too does our life have rules, not mere mechanical limitations. There is no such thing as "cheating" because unlike any man made game the game of life is perfect in its score keeping. The natural laws cannot be broken, cannot be cheated."

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    Aside from group buffs and heals, Fe also makes me think of AoE- and if you pair that up with Ni it seems like over a period of time. Fe/Ni makes me think of the priest/Inquisitor in Dragon Nest. They're never the first one to make the move, they are the ones who wait around and baits the other person to be aggressive. Like they're playing some sort of mind game with them- and once the person comes in to make a move, they fall to their doom. Even in pvp, they have great control over the area - always knows how to gain the advantage and stop people in their tracks. I don't know if anyone agrees but here's a video


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    The waiting for the other person to make the first move part would fit my conception of Ni's role in the game. It's like, "defensive/strategic control." It's "strategic" (introverted) in the sense that it has a dominant strategy which play then revolves around. Fi, for instance, bonds (for help or harm) with players and NPC's over the long-term, so that play then revolves around those few, but powerful bonds (including summoned/animal companions).

    Contrary-wise, extraverted functions would be "Offensive/Tactical," meaning that they are adaptative to changing situations (or help to quickly change situations) and have mostly short-term abilities.
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    I used to drive myself bonkers trying to find my true rpg class.

    I remember being in the halloween store and finding plastic rogue daggers and liking the way they feel, and thinking I was a rogue.

    I remember finding a sword and shield and liking that way *that* feels, and thinking I was a warrior/tank.

    Then I remembered that I'm shy and introverted and don't feel comfortable leading,

    Unless I'm in San Francisco or around other gay people then I feel like being the leader....

    AND THEN I ACTUALLY THOUGHT I COULD NEVER BE A CASTER BECAUSE IM NEAR SIGHTED. Like seriously, how could I throw a fireball so far in the distance when I couldn't even see it?

    But aren't casters always the near sighted geeks, I wondered, further contradicting myself.

    Shaman makes the most sense because the shaman class already has a natural alt-its of sorts, being a hybrid and all, but I don't like the way WoW shaman plays for some reason, I just don't. It feels kind of gimpy.

    I liked the feel of rogues kinda but I hated all the button presses and the positioning rules.

    I thought I was a healer for many years. I know I have a big heart, and healing 5-man dungeons is okay but healing 40-man raids was boring. If I wanted to play whack a mole there was cheaper ways.

    I thought I was a Warlock because when i was a little boy I hated the sunlight. And I like the dark/debuff thing. It seems to fit, except that I'm not evil or demonic at all. When I'm sociopathic, I feel guilty about it like a fucking goody two shoes. I don't laugh. =/ And I'm mixed on having pets. I'm sort of good with animals like Fluttershy is but then at times I couldn't care less if Reuben sociopathically killed all pets in the world.

    I thought I was a hunter for this reason that was so embarrassing I don't even want to say. But I just really highly dislike ranger classes in most video games like the actual playstyle and feel, so needless to say I won't be trying that again anytime soon.

    Right now, I'm playing a tank based off Sean. It's not really who I am I don't think but it's still enjoyable.

    DEAR GOD WHAT AM I. WHO AM I. PLEASE TELL ME SO I CAN STOP THIS INSANITY. (but I really love the 16types adventures Shaman persona I created for myself so ima still stick with that.) Even though I'm not really melee-ish playing tanks is okay and I did have a high lvl tank in wow that was actually the character I got furthest along. Hmm.

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    For my game, the functions wouldn't necessarily align to the usual MMO types. I don't think any function would be a "tank" or "healer." There would be a lot of variation within.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I used to drive myself bonkers trying to find my true rpg class.

    I remember being in the halloween store and finding plastic rogue daggers and liking the way they feel, and thinking I was a rogue.

    I remember finding a sword and shield and liking that way *that* feels, and thinking I was a warrior/tank.

    Then I remembered that I'm shy and introverted and don't feel comfortable leading,

    Unless I'm in San Francisco or around other gay people then I feel like being the leader....

    AND THEN I ACTUALLY THOUGHT I COULD NEVER BE A CASTER BECAUSE IM NEAR SIGHTED. Like seriously, how could I throw a fireball so far in the distance when I couldn't even see it?

    But aren't casters always the near sighted geeks, I wondered, further contradicting myself.

    Shaman makes the most sense because the shaman class already has a natural alt-its of sorts, being a hybrid and all, but I don't like the way WoW shaman plays for some reason, I just don't. It feels kind of gimpy.

    I liked the feel of rogues kinda but I hated all the button presses and the positioning rules.

    I thought I was a healer for many years. I know I have a big heart, and healing 5-man dungeons is okay but healing 40-man raids was boring. If I wanted to play whack a mole there was cheaper ways.

    I thought I was a Warlock because when i was a little boy I hated the sunlight. And I like the dark/debuff thing. It seems to fit, except that I'm not evil or demonic at all. When I'm sociopathic, I feel guilty about it like a fucking goody two shoes. I don't laugh. =/ And I'm mixed on having pets. I'm sort of good with animals like Fluttershy is but then at times I couldn't care less if Reuben sociopathically killed all pets in the world.

    I thought I was a hunter for this reason that was so embarrassing I don't even want to say. But I just really highly dislike ranger classes in most video games like the actual playstyle and feel, so needless to say I won't be trying that again anytime soon.

    Right now, I'm playing a tank based off Sean. It's not really who I am I don't think but it's still enjoyable.

    DEAR GOD WHAT AM I. WHO AM I. PLEASE TELL ME SO I CAN STOP THIS INSANITY. (but I really love the 16types adventures Shaman persona I created for myself so ima still stick with that.) Even though I'm not really melee-ish playing tanks is okay and I did have a high lvl tank in wow that was actually the character I got furthest along. Hmm.
    If you want, you can spend today with me bedazzling our junk and figuring out our true inner-selves.

  35. #35
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    B&D you are a PKK. You scour the land in the name of justice, to bring true peace to the land of Wherethehelleveria.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    BnD your DND class is Cleric. They are healers but not your typical RPG Aeris-esque HP fairy; they have decent physical attacks, dont have tons of HP but can wear all but the heaviest armor, and have built in debuff-esque powers using their emblems. They are the most versatile class in the game, with Rangers and Paladins being runners up. You are probably a chaotic good Cleric.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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