Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 50

Thread: Anti-smoking regulation and health fascism

  1. #1
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Anti-smoking regulation and health fascism

    Finnish health regulation saving the day and you from yourself.
    I don't know if this thread is about politics or venting or just random rambling. Fortunately, they don't exclude one another.

    Picture not related. Actually it is. It's an illegal setting if in Finland. Starting from 1.1.2012 the law requires for stores not to display cigarette brands. Not even in the back of the salesman. Finnish commercials are cigarette free as well. Apparently displaying cigarette filters in stores is okay though. You can ask a list you can take with you. If the list has pictures you can only look at it.

    It's pretty lame if you ask me. I don't know if it works but if it does even a bit, I might say it's worth it. There's also a possible forbidden fruit factor which could be counterproductive.

    Regulations seem annoying as it shows that there is someone controlling a minor aspect of everyone's life. Especially if those someone were easily thought of corrupt or stupid. Everybody not totally politically unaware likes to badmouth the branch of this entertainment industry (metaphor originally from Frank Zappa). But in any case, the situation is that regulation can be corrupt or stupid like the people who made it, but is this a bad case although I'm a bit pissed and I still think I should govern myself in sovereignty? Can you say that? I mean can you say to "to govern oneself in sovereignty"? Anyways I want your two cents on the matter. And a possible grammar correction.

    I must add that I am still pissed because I can't smoke in the bars without going to the smoking booth room thingy. If you are in bar, why would you want to save your body anyways? Did you not come there to destroy yourself? whatever, I think I'll just take it out on the people by smoking in the trams. Please do come and tell me about the dangers of second-hand smoking.

    And try not to mistake being high for Ne dom.
    This is not a statement, but a note.

    And yes I go to 9gag, being the 90s born nolife target audience
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  2. #2
    expired Lotus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    TIM
    Se/Ni sx/sp
    Posts
    4,494
    Mentioned
    99 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    loveeee living in a tobacco state. down here you can still smoke in bars (some, not all) and of course crappy timeless places like bowling alleys and waffle house. i onlY see cigarette advertisements inside gas stations and convenience stores though.

    the finnish law sounds waY too extreme imo. who cares if smoking is unhealthY, so are most people's eating habits Yet its ok to advertise heart attack inducing fast food. let people die how they want to.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

  3. #3
    expired Lotus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    TIM
    Se/Ni sx/sp
    Posts
    4,494
    Mentioned
    99 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    When you get pissed enough about the stupid shittiness of government, you can join me and CPig in calling for its destruction.
    YaY anarchists on the internet!

    none of You guys do shit.

    ashton respond to mY pm i need VI confirmation asap.

    i love You cpig.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    18,006
    Mentioned
    162 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Revolutionaries on the Internet.

  5. #5
    . willekeurig's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,512
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm very much against smoking in bars outside of the area specified for that. The cigarette smoke makes me feel like throwing up most of the time and the smell sticks to hair and clothes so you smell like shit and need to wash clothes all the time. I don't like the idea of getting whatever toxic substances cigarettes contain in my lungs either. Since pretty much everyone of my friends are smokers I'd have a shitty time at bars/restaurants if it wasn't for the smoking rooms/areas. Another thing is that the people who work at bars would be exposed to the smoke at their job. Ok you can always say that people choose their jobs but I dunno, it's hard to find a job these times and if the only one you can get is of the kind that puts your health at a risk what can you do about it? I think having to take a few steps to go to a smoking room/outside is a low cost for making the place safer and cozier for everyone.
    (I'd imagine one plus side to the smoking booths/having to smoke outside is that you also get to talk to strangers in a non-socially awkward way. Asking for a lighter is easier way to open a conversation than walking up to someone's table )

    The "you're drinking so you shouldn't mind smoking" argument sucks ass imo. Not everyone goes to bars to "destroy themselves"; small amounts of alcohol are actually proven to be good for your health. Most heavy drinkers maybe wouldn't care too much, but not everyone is like them. Many people go to bars to socialise, hold meetings, to relax with a glass of wine after work, there are bars that are also cafes and half of the customers don't even drink anything else but tea or something.. Also, I don't think having one unhealthy habit means (or should mean) you give away the right to protect your health from other unhealthy stuff. As if forcing people who eat junk food to drink booze would be okay because "they're already destroying themselves". Or not letting the people who don't do sports get public health care as "they don't care anyways". The fuck?

    With everything else I agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

  6. #6
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    There isn't much to do except disseminate the ideas. Also, engaging in counter-economic activity wherever reasonable.

    Which reminds me, Aquagraph you might like Agorism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    When you get pissed enough about the stupid shittiness of government, you can join me and CPig in advocating for its destruction.
    I was hoping for an explanation for why this kind of regulation is bad too, assuming it would be productive. Can I have one? I'm also interested how you see age limit enforcement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    loveeee living in a tobacco state. down here you can still smoke in bars (some, not all) and of course crappy timeless places like bowling alleys and waffle house. i onlY see cigarette advertisements inside gas stations and convenience stores though.
    I gotta visit places like that if I visit the States again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    the finnish law sounds waY too extreme imo. who cares if smoking is unhealthY, so are most people's eating habits Yet its ok to advertise heart attack inducing fast food. let people die how they want to.
    If you believe in the Scandinavian welfare (communism sympathizing) society with (socialist) universal healthcare, you could call it cutting the need for tax funded (robbed) money.

    And don't mistake me for a person with static ideologies.

    I like the idea of experimental federalism though.

    Agorism? A new category economical again. Thanks

    Also found:
    Other names for practicing counter-
    economists (other than black marketeers)
    are:
    [...]
    •Anyone who has ever smoked a joint,
    even if he regretted it (as when running for
    office);
    • Anyone who has ever committed any
    sex act except the missionary position with
    one’s legal spouse in one’s legal home
    (most states);
    • Drivers in some states who do not
    run in front of their cars with lanterns so
    as not to scare horses;
    and many others. Did you find yourself on
    the list?
    Agarina, you probably realized that it's a vent. Not too serious about it. I still smoke in trams. I also believe that Aki Kaurismäki should be the national director of Finland. And Finnish bars need smoke. They tend to have no smoking areas and even completely smoke-free bars.

    I agree with what you said about smoking booth social stuff. As an extreme extrovert alcoholic smoker, I gotta love them.

    Agarina, what do you think of the legislation itself?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  7. #7
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, I do like being safe from other people's smoke. I want to save up my somewhat clean lungs for people I've known or will know and end up spending time with who are smokers. I think that is plenty of smoke. So, you see, I don't have a lot of reserves if you think about it that way.

    I think that you may have covered in the OP a lot of the pros and cons. And I'm really unfamiliar with it and don't have an opinion.

  8. #8
    force my hand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,334
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    IMO, people have really gone overboard with anti-smoking sentiment.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

  9. #9
    Esaman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    878
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Smoking has a huge physical addiction component. Stronger than a lot of illegal substances. It also doesn't have any kind of benefit. Momentary ease is only other side of increased agitation from cravings. Most of long time smokers would like to stop, but prospect of withdrawal is too much for them.
    And yes there is a concept that you benefit from health of other people in your society even if you don't pay for their health care, and then some more when you do.
    That is the pitch. I recognize that there is a line to be overstepped here in terms of personal freedom, but removal of all marketing and making internal public spaces non-smoking is not it.

  10. #10
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Smoking causes emphysema.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    18,006
    Mentioned
    162 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Smoking causes emphysema.
    Cigars cause pneumonia. Believe me, I'm not kidding.

  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    18,006
    Mentioned
    162 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Regulations seem annoying as it shows that there is someone controlling a minor aspect of everyone's life.
    Crossing the street and getting hit by a car like the guy I saw once on my way home from school is actually breaking the regulations. Guy flew 2 meters in the air like a bag of potatoes but I get what you're talking about - they're doing it on their own initiative. I'm okay with it.

    But in any case, the situation is that regulation can be corrupt or stupid like the people who made it, but is this a bad case although I'm a bit pissed and I still think I should govern myself in sovereignty?
    Best part is, your countrymen elected those people. Your countrymen voted yes in a referendum in October 1994. In other words, your countrymen, the 57% majority, are controlling you.

    I must add that I am still pissed because I can't smoke in the bars without going to the smoking booth room thingy. If you are in bar, why would you want to save your body anyways?
    Well, look on the bright side, you're not U.K nor Ireland citizen. Both have the strictest laws - a complete ban on smoking in indoor workplaces and public places, including public restaurants and bars.

    Bear in mind that European Commission has no power whatsoever when it comes to enforcing laws, that body can only influence/lobby.

  13. #13
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    5,929
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    loveeee living in a tobacco state. down here you can still smoke in bars (some, not all) and of course crappy timeless places like bowling alleys and waffle house.
    Jealous. There's no smoking in the bars in Colorado. Florida was different.

    Although we do have things like "cigar bars," but last I heard they're trying to shut those down, even.

  14. #14
    Hiding Typhon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Valhalla
    TIM
    Ni-ENFj
    Posts
    2,645
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I kind of agree its extreme to have no smoking bars lol since that seems contary to why you go to a bar. I do think second hand smoke is bad for people who dont smoke though, yes, you go to a bar for self-destruction but only in ways which you choose to destroy your body. You can destroy your body, but I dont think you have a right to cause it on others who dont want it. But. I think second hand smoke is only a problem if you live with someone whos smokes, but if its only exposure to second smoke at a bar its pretty harmless anyways. Filled with smoke - thats how a bar should be anwyays, it seems kind of against the point of going into a bar to have your health freak habits maintained, lol.

    I think we have a similar law here in Belgium, though Im not sure, but you dont see cigarrette brands adertised anywhere is grocery stores or anything. So I guess we have the same law. I dont know what I think about it.
    Last edited by Typhon; 03-11-2012 at 09:12 AM.

  15. #15
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    5,929
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    I kind of agree its extreme to have no smoking bars lol since that seems contary to why you go to a bar.
    The point is, if people refuse to go to a bar because they permit smoking, there is nothing stopping a bar owner from opening a bar that discourages the act, or at least designating a smoking patio for people who do want the choice. Most bars will allow smoking inside, however, to encourage more business. The economics of discrimination is interesting, and it applies to more than just smokers, but the market is more than capable of accommodating all classes inasmuch as the demand justifies the expense.

  16. #16
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default



    translation: Smoking Is Deadly

    as a life long non-smoker i think this is a barrel of laughs. i have mixed feelings about having the advantage of improved health over others relinquished, though.

  17. #17
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    It also doesn't have any kind of benefit.it.
    Are you a smoker or have you spesifically tried looking for evidence that smoking would have benefits? I bet neither, as your argument implies that smokers just do it for nothing but to evade withdrawal symptoms. If smoking was to be found healthy, it wouldn't be a story current healthmania machinery would want to share.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  18. #18
    Esaman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    878
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Are you a smoker or have you spesifically tried looking for evidence that smoking would have benefits?
    I don't have to. The relaxation is the only benefit ever mentioned by smokers. If there were any health benefits tobacco industry would shine light on them, and now there is nothing positive to find that could possibly outweigh proven negatives. It is also silly to imply that scientists would be biased against tobacco.
    Interesting how you only questioned my opinion, not provided anything against it. Addict, why don't you say that there is not only fear of withdrawal but an experience of satisfaction that motivates smoking? That is a fault in my statement, but it doesn't help you, does it.

  19. #19
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    I don't have to. The relaxation is the only benefit ever mentioned by smokers.
    Relaxation, social wapon ("got a light"), makes you less likely to get Parkinson's disease, alleviates the symptoms of schizophrenia..
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    If there were any health benefits tobacco industry would shine light on them, and now there is nothing positive to find that could possibly outweigh proven negatives.
    So it's common knowledge that smoking has the health benefits mentioned above?
    Understand that "outweighing" other options is a very much based on the sentimental approximated pros and cons of the use rather than pointing out something tangible and provable. If I'd be a schizophrenic smoker with a high risk of Parkinson's, I wouldn't care to complain about about something very bad happening to my lungs as it would be "outweighed" easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    It is also silly to imply that scientists would be biased against tobacco.
    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Interesting how you only questioned my opinion, not provided anything against it.
    I'm the sarcastic ghost of Socrates.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  20. #20
    Esaman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    878
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Researchers in the academia get name for themselves by finding controversial facts. Also they get funding for particular research not particular results, skewing the results endangers their credibility and career. If money was an issue tobacco industry would chip in.
    Influence on Parkinson's disease is fairly new discovery and not understood. Positing smoking as beneficial for a random person or general population would be laughable because of crushing evidence in contrary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Understand that "outweighing" other options is a very much based on the sentimental approximated pros and cons of the use rather than pointing out something tangible and provable.
    That is bullshit. Longer and healthier life is of clear value for any person who isn't fucked up and selfdestructive.
    If the smoking alleviates schizophrenics condition it is reasonable for him to trade improved quality of life for the amount of it. That rational choice is not available to other people, because there is no benefits to quality of life present for them that could compete with the harm to the quality and length of life.

  21. #21
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    5,989
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    http://www.livescience.com/15115-5-h...g-disease.html

    There are benefits to most things. I think in the case of smoking the risks way outweigh the benefits. (Although maybe there's some way to make tobacco into a safe dietary supplement, hehe.)

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/resources/publications/AAG/osh.htm
    Each year (in the US I presume?), an estimated 443,000 people die prematurely from smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke, and another 8.6 million live with a serious illness caused by smoking.
    This doesn't mean of course that everyone who is a smoker is going to die from it or that people who smoke part of their lives are. But that statement isn't meant to undermine the dangers.

    Anyway, I thought this was mainly about businesses not being allowed to in any way advertise or display their nicotine/tobacco products in a sort of great strategy of if people don't see it, then it isn't there, and so they will be less inclined to try to find it, ask for it and buy it. (Out of sight, out of mind.) Really that would be a huge deterrent for me, having to go out of my way to ask for them. I suppose I could just bring a picture of what I want and then I wouldn't have to speak. I could say, "these" and leave it at that.

    I still don't seem to have an opinion.

  22. #22
    heath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,722
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Revolutionaries on the Internet.
    ron paul 2012
    asd

  23. #23
    heath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,722
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    loveeee living in a tobacco state. down here you can still smoke in bars (some, not all) and of course crappy timeless places like bowling alleys and waffle house. i onlY see cigarette advertisements inside gas stations and convenience stores though.

    the finnish law sounds waY too extreme imo. who cares if smoking is unhealthY, so are most people's eating habits Yet its ok to advertise heart attack inducing fast food. let people die how they want to.
    I agree.. The only thing that bugs me is smoking indoors, i'm really not crazy about that just because its uncomfortable for me. Sorry if my people rained on your parade.
    asd

  24. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    18,006
    Mentioned
    162 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by heath View Post
    ron paul 2012
    Hahaha! I pissed spit myself wilist smoking a dn drinking beer. Thank you.

  25. #25
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Researchers in the academia get name for themselves by finding controversial facts.
    Yes, the ideal science is critical and counters itself from time to time. Eppur si muove
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Also they get funding for particular research not particular results, skewing the results endangers their credibility and career.
    So cigarette industry would have a discretided scientists..
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    If money was an issue tobacco industry would chip in.
    ..on an payroll for counter-productive results?

    These people ain't stupid but calculative. That's a major part of it why they are in their positions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    That is bullshit. Longer and healthier life is of clear value for any person who isn't fucked up and selfdestructive.
    I criticize about the subjectivity of that pseudo-factual statement and then you countered it with said it's about values of a particular group (the "normal" people)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    If the smoking alleviates schizophrenics condition it is reasonable for him to trade improved quality of life for the amount of it.
    Good. They needed your approval.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    That rational choice is not available to other people, because there is no benefits to quality of life present for them that could compete with the harm to the quality and length of life.
    There are other less studied benefits. Besides the apparent high and social tool aspects.
    Can you imagine a scenario where the cigarette companies are happy that they have the forbidden fruit you shouldn't use?
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    There are benefits to most things.
    I dare you all to name one thing that hasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Anyway, I thought this was mainly about businesses not being allowed to in any way advertise or display their nicotine/tobacco products in a sort of great strategy of if people don't see it, then it isn't there, and so they will be less inclined to try to find it, ask for it and buy it. (Out of sight, out of mind.) Really that would be a huge deterrent for me, having to go out of my way to ask for them. I suppose I could just bring a picture of what I want and then I wouldn't have to speak. I could say, "these" and leave it at that.
    I completely agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I still don't seem to have an opinion.
    Sounds wise.


    Describe me the typical smoker, please.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  26. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    18,006
    Mentioned
    162 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Why am I not fucking quoted, what the fuck is this - a democracy?

  27. #27
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mind
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    568 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't really care, but I don't let people smoke in my house. I tend to view laws of this sort as meaningless but also as not a big problem if enacted, at the end, it's just smoking or non-smoking, a relatively trivial hassle for both sides.

  28. #28
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Unless the enactment of such laws creates a precedent for enacting increasingly intrusive laws.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  29. #29
    heath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,722
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Unless the enactment of such laws creates a precedent for enacting increasingly intrusive laws.
    they dern took away our smokes! what next?!?! this for freedom dermnit!
    asd

  30. #30
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    and next DEL BE TAKIN ER JERBBSSS.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  31. #31
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    they tirrrkk errrr JERRRBBSS!!
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  32. #32
    Esaman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    878
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    So cigarette industry would have a discretided scientists..
    ..on an payroll for counter-productive results?
    Even if study results are in suspicion. Discrediting them would require an independent study. Why counter-productive? Smoking is good for you, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    There are other less studied benefits. Besides the apparent high and social tool aspects.
    Tobacco is one of the most if not the most studied substances, the strong influences already popped up. "Hey, lets all socialize on occasion of burning our health". It is good that there is social pressure against smoking, because otherwise there would be (and was) social pressure to smoke.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    I criticize about the subjectivity of that pseudo-factual statement and then you countered it with said it's about values of a particular group (the "normal" people)?
    It is only natural for a person to see "healthier, longer life" without any other qualifiers and circumstances as straightforward benefit. I am sorry if suicidally depressed or deranged ideologues feel excluded.

    PS. All that said, I am not for banning or too aggressive taxation of smokes.

  33. #33
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Even if study results are in suspicion. Discrediting them would require an independent study.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Tobacco is one of the most if not the most studied substances[...]
    What factions have been funding all these studies on smoking in your opinion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Why counter-productive? Smoking is good for you, right?
    Discredited scientists won't lend credibility, they eat it.
    And this brings me back to the question: Can you imagine a scenario where the cigarette companies are happy that they have the forbidden fruit you shouldn't use?
    Think about the best target audience; rebellious teenagers. Get em smoking young and they'll be trying to quit after for real when they are in their thirties or whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    It is good that there is social pressure against smoking, because otherwise there would be (and was) social pressure to smoke.
    Social pressuring to teenagers on health education, check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    It is only natural for a person to see "healthier, longer life" without any other qualifiers and circumstances as straightforward benefit.
    I don't know if a developed ape with a drastically prolonged lifespan up to age of oblivion and forgetfulness has a lot to do with 'natural' either. Things like Nature are just as you want to look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    I am sorry if suicidally depressed or deranged ideologues feel excluded.
    Let me confess my possible bias, we all have some anyways; I like the illusion of sex drugs and rock n roll I am having.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    PS. All that said, I am not for banning or too aggressive taxation of smokes.
    Good to hear. I'm for heavier taxation though.

    Besides, think about it. Who are the most likely to die from second-hand smoking from bars? Drunks, obviously. I think people can handle some control a la eugenics if it's not done straightforward. Boring people can have the world as scoundrels, losers and the real artists become endangered.

    This is Lorna Gobey. She is century old in the pic. She's been drinking and smoking without dying for 70 years now. She has haggened over the years but she still drives a motorcycle. This is nothing like "look she smokes and she's still alive" nor it is an argument at all. But she seems fun.

    In case you missed; Describe me the typical smoker, please.

    Here's a thought, what if smoking kills people more because people think they should be dying?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  34. #34
    Esaman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    878
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If I had to pull statistics out of my ass, then I'd say for every 100 year old smoker alive thee is a million dying from smoking related reasons at age below 60, yearly.

    "Who are the most likely to die from second-hand smoking from bars?" - Staff, obviously.

    "In case you missed; Describe me the typical smoker, please. " I won't be guessing demographics, but what I do think about average smoker is that he/she would prefer if he didn't smoke, but he is an addict.

    "Here's a thought, what if smoking kills people more because people think they should be dying?" Placebo effects swings that way too, but effects isn't that significant. Definitely won't kill anyone, smoking will.

    "And this brings me back to the question: Can you imagine a scenario where the cigarette companies are happy that they have the forbidden fruit you shouldn't use?
    Think about the best target audience; rebellious teenagers. Get em smoking young and they'll be trying to quit after for real when they are in their thirties or whatever."
    What is a point you are trying to make? That it is not your fault that you were stupid as a teenager?

    There is no one who benefit financially from anti-smoking campaign and legislation. (Except everyone who will not burn their money in form of tobaco and healthcare of course)
    Scientists have nothing to gain and everything to loose by altering results in anti-smoking direction. Your conspiracy accusation on researchers is stupid.

    "Social pressuring to teenagers on health education, check."
    What?

  35. #35
    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,234
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    A study released a year or three ago, which I can't seem to find, claimed that in the interest of reduced burdens on the medical and welfare systems, it is beneficial that tobacco consumers kill themselves prematurely through use of those carcinogenic products than it for them to live into old age where they would require more extensive attention and support for a longer period.

  36. #36
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    smoke pot instead and homoerotically blow it on my face like in that six feet under episode with David and Sarge. Woof.

  37. #37
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think this thread is about trade-offs. Smoking gave my dad pleasure, and he did that even though he knew that he would probably die in his 60s. which he did.

    playing mmorpgs gives me pleasure even though I know it causes near sightedness and exacerbates my social phobia since most people are assholes online just because they can be. But I like the feeling of winning and learning new spells and progressing in a fantasy environment and I'm wiling to accept that it causes me to be legally blind. I would seriously have perfect vision if I did less 'introverted activities' like reading/writing, watching netflix, but I like those things too much so that's how my eyes got adjusted.

    my friend james (name changed) likes to cure his near sightedness and meditate even though it turns him to the most ANNOYING narcissist that can't emotionally connect with anybody. He can't get close to people romantically and it's very annoying. but him turning himself into this perfect person is just more important than him connecting with ppl.

    so if I were to change my lifestyle/habits and how I live my life then I would have to like what I get more then what I don't get. but for me doing real world things is always a lose/lose so I don't participate. I really wish that I would have a real world experience that actually turned out positive but it seriously NEVER DOES. I'm not playing a victim that's just how it always goes. It's so annoying and I never belong. I'm just following my self-interests ala Ayn Rand and my self-interest always says to load up a video game. =/ Or watch another episode of star trek voyager which ima gonna do now. im sure the same is true of 'type a personalities' they cannot for the life of them see the point of writing a book or watching a bunch of tv shows or drawing or reading, they get energized by living in the WORLD DUDE. I will participate in your world again when it stops being so Te and annoying. Okay I love you buh-bye.

  38. #38
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    If I had to pull statistics out of my ass[...]
    But you don't have to. Please. She wasn't an argument as I said before. Think of her as a story feature releasing the tension, like BnD. We know that smoking kills already. Having constantly needed to be reminded of it makes me wanna light up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Staff, obviously.
    There are ways to legislate bar smoking so that the staff won't have to go to the smoking area. And that there is a non-smoking area. And so they used to do it if my memory serves me. I'm not really a hardliner here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    Placebo effects swings that way too, but effects isn't that significant. Definitely won't kill anyone, smoking will.
    Have you heard about the case of this depressed patient going to ER for ODing with his depression pills. The treatment didn't help, his values were still off and no sign of dramatic improvement. They couldn't stabilize his condition in few days and then the doctor found out that he was part of the control group. He almost died but I guess his immune system was failing due to eating chalk since placebo doesn't kill anyone, right? He recovered after the doctors found out what he really took and told it to him.
    There are also studies about life being prolonged by a few years with a positive attitude. In a way telling people that they are dying with their habit & lifestyle can kill people.

    Everyone knows the dangers and yet people use it. Why do they start it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    What is a point you are trying to make? That it is not your fault that you were stupid as a teenager?
    I'm not trying to make a point. Points are made with statements, that there is a question such as the sentence: Are you able to answerit?
    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    There is no one who benefit financially from anti-smoking campaign and legislation.
    So who funds them and the studies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Esaman View Post
    What?
    You want more social pressure against smoking in the form of educating the young about the dangers of the habit. Am I right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekpyrosos View Post
    A study released a year or three ago, which I can't seem to find, claimed that in the interest of reduced burdens on the medical and welfare systems, it is beneficial that tobacco consumers kill themselves prematurely through use of those carcinogenic products than it for them to live into old age where they would require more extensive attention and support for a longer period.
    So it's an improvement to maintenance relation and kills people faster? Can it even get better?

    Who are statistically recorded to die of smoking? What is the definition of a smoker death?
    Last edited by Aquagraph; 03-16-2012 at 02:07 PM.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  39. #39
    Fuck-up NewBorn STAR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    TIM
    me>> Augusta whore
    Posts
    998
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    With your smoke you burn us all away

  40. #40
    Fuck-up NewBorn STAR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    TIM
    me>> Augusta whore
    Posts
    998
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •