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    Default k....

    so phaedrus says i might be INTp. .aaaaand i know some people don't think im INTj. so..

    id like to hear the args.

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    you're obviously ENFj.

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    I honestly have no clue what type you are
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    you're obviously ENFj.
    please don't eff around, are you serious? if so please say more. I really think i am INTj. The only other type i might be confused about is maybe INTp.

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    I really think i am INTj. The only other type i might be confused about is maybe INTp.
    I have never said that I believe that you are an INTp, or that it is more likely that you are an INTp than that you are an INTj. I was interested in your reasons for your claim that you are an INTj. And if you want to be sure about your type, I really think that you should state those reasons.

    Based on what you said in the thread INTp v INTj it is quite possible that you have an incorrect picture of the INTj type. And I really think that it is important to be clear about these things. So, before we form any definite opinions about your type, you should first say why you think that you are an INTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    you're obviously ENFj.
    please don't eff around, are you serious? if so please say more. I really think i am INTj. The only other type i might be confused about is maybe INTp.
    no, i thought it was fairly obvious i was kidding.

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    i believe that kant was an INTj and i think i am cut from the same cloth as him. wouldn't this be consistent with having to rearrange my brain to study wittgenstein since they seem to be very different from each other? consistent with but not proving..

    i believe i am INTj because something very characteristic of my day to day behavior is something which i think is Ne-ing. The majority of what i say is something like Ne humor-- in another thread, what is described as taking something out of its normal context. and I believe it is a creative function, its what i use to construct a latticework model of the world in my understanding..

    I also act like someone who seeks Fe and Si... what i mean by this is i think everyone should be kind and courteous to each other regardless of any personal beef they may have with each other. and i feel calmed when they are.. I also demonstrate behaviors characteristic of someone with an Si hidden agenda, granted, they are drawn from mcnew's site.. but in general i identify with Si and am neurotic about Se. I also am paranoid about Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    you're obviously ENFj.
    please don't eff around, are you serious? if so please say more. I really think i am INTj. The only other type i might be confused about is maybe INTp.
    no, i thought it was fairly obvious i was kidding.
    ^^^

    *points* another indicator i have Ne out the wazoo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    I really think i am INTj. The only other type i might be confused about is maybe INTp.
    I have never said that I believe that you are an INTp, or that it is more likely that you are an INTp than that you are an INTj. I was interested in your reasons for your claim that you are an INTj. And if you want to be sure about your type, I really think that you should state those reasons.

    Based on what you said in the thread INTp v INTj it is quite possible that you have an incorrect picture of the INTj type. And I really think that it is important to be clear about these things. So, before we form any definite opinions about your type, you should first say why you think that you are an INTj.
    its true you didn't say you thought that, but you said that i should consider INTp and you gave some evidence as to why i might be INTp-- because you suspected that you had a similar confusion and that might be what was going on with me. *shrug*

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    i believe that kant was an INTj and i think i am cut from the same cloth as him.
    I also believe that Kant was an INTj, but how can we determine whether you are cut from the same cloth as him or not? That you sympathize with his philosophy (if you do that) is definitely not a very strong argument. Do you have other reasons for that belief about being cut from the same cloth?

    wouldn't this be consistent with having to rearrange my brain to study wittgenstein since they seem to be very different from each other?
    But I also believe that I had to rearange my brain to study Wittgenstein, and we know for a fact that I am an INTp, so that argument can't be very strong either. And Kant and Wittgenstein are of course different i many ways, but they are similar in that they focus on the limitations of human knowledge, and some philosophers have argued that Wittgenstein was a kind of Kantian in a sense that has to do with what I have been saying here. I put them both in my subjectivist camp.

    i believe i am INTj because something very characteristic of my day to day behavior is something which i think is Ne-ing. The majority of what i say is something like Ne humor-- in another thread, what is described as taking something out of its normal context. and I believe it is a creative function, its what i use to construct a latticework model of the world in my understanding..
    Poor argument. I can relate to that kind of humor too, I think. The argument seems to be based on at least two very weak assumptions. First, that you have identified a certain kind of humor as Ne. Second, that you are able to determine whether you have exactly that kind of humour and not another kind of humor.

    I also act like someone who seeks Fe and Si... what i mean by this is i think everyone should be kind and courteous to each other and i feel calmed when they are.. I also demonstrate behaviors characteristic of someone with an Si hidden agenda, granted, they are drawn from mcnew's site.. but in general i identify with Si and am neurotic about Se. I also am paranoid about Fi.
    How are you able to determine all those things? Have you read any type descriptions? Have you compared type descriptions from different models (both Socionics and MBTI)? Maybe the fact that you seem to want to focus on the functions instead of type descriptions is an argument for INTj. But I am very suspicious of such typings if they are not backed up with readings of type descriptions.

    Have you thought about the difference of J and P? In my opinion that is a very important dichotomy, and once you have understood it from both the Socionics and the MBTI perspective, you will probably be able to determine for sure whether you are a J or a P type. One thing that I know for sure is that if you are an INTp, you can very easily think that you are a J type without being one. I'm not sure how common it is for an INTj to believe that he or she is an INTp, but to be an INTp and think that you are an INTj might be a very common mistake that people make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    i believe that kant was an INTj and i think i am cut from the same cloth as him.
    I also believe that Kant was an INTj, but how can we determine whether you are cut from the same cloth as him or not? That you sympathize with his philosophy (if you do that) is definitely not a very strong argument. Do you have other reasons for that belief about being cut from the same cloth?

    wouldn't this be consistent with having to rearrange my brain to study wittgenstein since they seem to be very different from each other?
    But I also believe that I had to rearange my brain to study Wittgenstein, and we know for a fact that I am an INTp, so that argument can't be very strong either. And Kant and Wittgenstein are of course different i many ways, but they are similar in that they focus on the limitations of human knowledge, and some philosophers have argued that Wittgenstein was a kind of Kantian in a sense that has to do with what I have been saying here. I put them both in my subjectivist camp.

    i believe i am INTj because something very characteristic of my day to day behavior is something which i think is Ne-ing. The majority of what i say is something like Ne humor-- in another thread, what is described as taking something out of its normal context. and I believe it is a creative function, its what i use to construct a latticework model of the world in my understanding..
    Poor argument. I can relate to that kind of humor too, I think. The argument seems to be based on at least two very weak assumptions. First, that you have identified a certain kind of humor as Ne. Second, that you are able to determine whether you have exactly that kind of humour and not another kind of humor.

    I also act like someone who seeks Fe and Si... what i mean by this is i think everyone should be kind and courteous to each other and i feel calmed when they are.. I also demonstrate behaviors characteristic of someone with an Si hidden agenda, granted, they are drawn from mcnew's site.. but in general i identify with Si and am neurotic about Se. I also am paranoid about Fi.
    How are you able to determine all those things? Have you read any type descriptions? Have you compared type descriptions from different models (both Socionics and MBTI)? Maybe the fact that you seem to want to focus on the functions instead of type descriptions is an argument for INTj. But I am very suspicious of such typings if they are not backed up with readings of type descriptions.

    Have you thought about the difference of J and P? In my opinion that is a very important dichotomy, and once you have understood it from both the Socionics and the MBTI perspective, you will probably be able to determine for sure whether you are a J or a P type. One thing that I know for sure is that if you are an INTp, you can very easily think that you are a J type without being one. I'm not sure how common it is for an INTj to believe that he or she is an INTp, but to be an INTp and think that you are an INTj might be a very common mistake that people make.
    i will respond to this when i feel like taking it serious enough to do so. but let me say that i have read countless descriptions of the INTj and i am aware of the difference in socionics regarding j and p types. (i would say i am a J). why would you not think i am (aware)? i think it would be quite cumbersome to reiterate the function descriptions here, let me say that i used socioniko.net as my primary resource because it was the best resource, imo. it is no longer up, i am told..

    but i suppose the most useful way to respond would be to state the functions as I see them and why i identify more with each function, as well as the type description of INTj more than the other types.

    TBC

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    why would you not think i am (aware)?
    Because of these reasons:

    1. You seem to be not 100 % sure of your type.

    2. The reasons you stated for INTj were not very strong. (You might have stronger reasons for INTj than those you stated.)

    3. Socionic descriptions of J and P are not enough to determine for sure whether you are a J or a P type, since so many people seem to believe that you can be a P type in MBTI and still be a J type in Socionics. That belief is mistaken, and for that reason I don't trust people's assessments of their type, if those assessments are based only on socionic descriptions of functions and the difference between J and P.

    I know from my own experience that it is possible to be very sure of your type and still be wrong. And I have probably done a more thorough research on my own type than any other person on this forum.

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    did you say you were warrior-librarian? if so have you been reading my posts since the time you were posting under that name?

    i am so open to possibility that i am very vulnerable to suggestion-- so id appreciate no jokes please

    *party pooper*

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    INTj seems correct to me.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    INTj seems correct to me.
    What's the point of just stating your opinion without explaining your reasons for it? It find it irritating. You could at least tell us something about why you think that, even if you don't have any good arguments for it. How else can we come closer to the truth of the matter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    INTj seems correct to me.
    What's the point of just stating your opinion without explaining your reasons for it? It find it irritating. You could at least tell us something about why you think that, even if you don't have any good arguments for it. How else can we come closer to the truth of the matter?
    I have talked to Ms K. in the chat. I like her, and I've noticed a few things.

    -This is not the standard compassionate friendly type of girl (She's not mean either, but I didn't notice the kind of strong ego )
    -This is not a strong-willed, dominating person (No particular reason to believe she has ego )
    -She doesn't try to find reasons to argue with others or to express their opinion logic all the time (Let's just say I didn't sense the strong ego )
    -She seems a bit shy and not full of expression (no ego )

    Besides, the avatar kind of says, that she's introverted and keeps to herself. It's not even important if that's her on the picture, because she chose it as her avatar.
    She could have Si, Ti, Ni, Ne. The avatar, IMHO, excludes Si. So this would conclude NeTi or TiNe. I'm saying INTj, but that's just my opinion.

    PS! Ms.K I hope you didn't get the wrong idea about the things I said. I still like you. You are compassionate and practically logical and.... but it's not to the level of being one of your main personality traits.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    Thank you, Kristiina. That is much better. Ms. Kensington could be an INTj, but it seems that the only independent reason you would guess INTj over INTp is that you don't sense strong ego .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina
    -This is not the standard compassionate friendly type of girl (She's not mean either, but I didn't notice the kind of strong ego )


    In fact, INTjs trust their more than their . Alpha quadra values are , , , .
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by soggy-flakes
    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington
    did you say you were warrior-librarian? if so have you been reading my posts since the time you were posting under that name?

    i am so open to possibility that i am very vulnerable to suggestion-- so id appreciate no jokes please

    *party pooper*

    Yep, that used to be my username. Shhhhh don't tell anyone. :wink:

    Seriously, you seem like an INTj to me.


    i just finished eating some cereal.

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    Hey Phaedrus, I will respond to this post now.

    I will answer your comments on this page and then further my own argument. I may do it in a separate post though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    i believe that kant was an INTj and i think i am cut from the same cloth as him.
    I also believe that Kant was an INTj, but how can we determine whether you are cut from the same cloth as him or not? That you sympathize with his philosophy (if you do that) is definitely not a very strong argument. Do you have other reasons for that belief about being cut from the same cloth?
    My comment about being cut from the same cloth is that i think i would have made the same comments as he. My writing is indecipherable, in the same way as his is. Overly convoluted, sticking at the same points about clarification of an object. In the same way as I am able to follow others who use Ne (i do this in real life) more so and much more frequently than those around me, i am able to follow the way things are worded with Kant as I am with other INTjs.

    [quote="Phaedrus"]
    wouldn't this be consistent with having to rearrange my brain to study wittgenstein since they seem to be very different from each other?
    But I also believe that I had to rearange my brain to study Wittgenstein, and we know for a fact that I am an INTp, so that argument can't be very strong either. And Kant and Wittgenstein are of course different i many ways, but they are similar in that they focus on the limitations of human knowledge, and some philosophers have argued that Wittgenstein was a kind of Kantian in a sense that has to do with what I have been saying here. I put them both in my subjectivist camp.
    Actually i dont know for a fact you are INTp. And i thought socionics has to do with the way people think/do things, not what their interests are.. or at least, that the former set of things is greater in determining type than the latter. Isnt that how people explain how duals fail most of the time, because their interests and focuses are different?

    [quote="Phaedrus"]
    i believe i am INTj because something very characteristic of my day to day behavior is something which i think is Ne-ing. The majority of what i say is something like Ne humor-- in another thread, what is described as taking something out of its normal context. and I believe it is a creative function, its what i use to construct a latticework model of the world in my understanding..
    Poor argument. I can relate to that kind of humor too, I think. The argument seems to be based on at least two very weak assumptions. First, that you have identified a certain kind of humor as Ne. Second, that you are able to determine whether you have exactly that kind of humour and not another kind of humor.
    Well, I said that its what I do characteristically, and now i will say i do it most of the time, not only that i can relate to it. Also, i am the one doing it, not observing and then relating to it. I also did not mean to base the argument on something called Ne humor. It was something that was accessible to me to describe, because there was a thread on here about Ne humor that people posted on, making me feel as if it was some sort of small consensus on this forum at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus
    I also act like someone who seeks Fe and Si... what i mean by this is i think everyone should be kind and courteous to each other and i feel calmed when they are.. I also demonstrate behaviors characteristic of someone with an Si hidden agenda, granted, they are drawn from mcnew's site.. but in general i identify with Si and am neurotic about Se. I also am paranoid about Fi.
    How are you able to determine all those things? Have you read any type descriptions? Have you compared type descriptions from different models (both Socionics and MBTI)? Maybe the fact that you seem to want to focus on the functions instead of type descriptions is an argument for INTj. But I am very suspicious of such typings if they are not backed up with readings of type descriptions.

    Have you thought about the difference of J and P? In my opinion that is a very important dichotomy, and once you have understood it from both the Socionics and the MBTI perspective, you will probably be able to determine for sure whether you are a J or a P type. One thing that I know for sure is that if you are an INTp, you can very easily think that you are a J type without being one. I'm not sure how common it is for an INTj to believe that he or she is an INTp, but to be an INTp and think that you are an INTj might be a very common mistake that people make.
    um.. let's see.. how do i determine things about my behavior that relate to functions, and also different states of functions (strong vs. deficient)? I think i first read descriptions of the strong functions and then determine if i have it or not (meaning i say, "do i do this"? and judge if i have a strong reaction or not). Then later i learned what behaviors are characteristic of a deficient version of a function (this was new to me as before i thought deficient functions would just result in less occurances of the strong version's behaviors). So, i read, digest, and apply.

    You should explain to me about what you want me to take away from the j-p dichotomy as you see it.

    I will write more about my own type in a separate post.

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    um.. let's see.. how do i determine things about my behavior that relate to functions, and also different states of functions (strong vs. deficient)? I think i first read descriptions of the strong functions and then determine if i have it or not. Then later i learned what behaviors are characteristic of a deficient version of a function (this was new to me as before i thought deficient functions would just result in less occurances of the strong version's behaviors). So, i read, digest, and apply.
    My point is that that is not nearly good enough. I'm not saying that you shouldn't read about functions, but you should definitely also read descriptions about types. The fact that you don't seem to have done that, or at least don't mention it, is the strongest argument for INTj at the moment, in my opinion.

    Actually i dont know for a fact you are INTp.
    No, you don't. But I know for a fact that if I am not an INTp, a huge part of the theory of Socionics falls apart. That I am an INTp can be regarded as a secure foundation upon which the typing of others can be built. I can assure you that I have investigated the matter very thoroughly, having considered every counter argument that I have been able to come up with myself. I have also put my type to the severe testing of others. There is probably no other INTj or INTp on this forum whose type is more certain than mine. (Well ... my subtype is still open for debate.)

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    im sorry, could you please give me the link where you talk about your reasoning for your type? or PM me.

    Well. i did feel that i related both to the INTp and INTj descriptions i read on socionics.com and socionics.net. Like i said i think the socionics.net site was the best site as it seemed to discuss behaviors that could exist in any context, while socionics.com seems to be more.. circumstantial. I still don't quite know what you want me to take away. What is indeed good enough?

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    im sorry, could you please give me the link where you talk about your reasoning for your type? or PM me.
    I'm not sure I can do that. I have discussed my type in a lot of posts in many different threads, not only on this forum but also on Sergei Ganin's, under the name "Prometheus". I have lost count of how many they are by now, and exactly where to find them.

    Well. i did feel that i related both to the INTp and INTj descriptions i read on socionics.com and socionics.net.
    The socionic descriptions of INTps and INTjs are misleading and incorrect in some ways. We have discussed some of the problems in this thread: oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=4408

    What is indeed good enough?
    I have read every socionic description of INTps and INTjs that I have been able to find and also countless of MBTI descriptions of INTPs and INTJs. You probably know that I believe that both models are describing the same groups of people. The MBTI descriptions focus on some other things that the socionic descriptions don't mention or don't accentuate. I think it is a good idea to read MBTI descriptions too. If you really are an INTj you should identify more with the MBTI descriptions of INTJs (but you should of course ignore all those parts that are about functions). It is much easier for me to see (from the type descriptions) that I am an INTP and not an INTJ than it is for me to see that I am an INTp and not an INTj. And the reason for that is the misleading socionic descriptions of INTps and INTjs.

    Both Socionics and MBTI describe rational J behaviour and irrational P behaviour in roughly the same way, even though some people want to emphasize their differences. Once you get a firm grip on what the difference between J and P is all about, you'll be able to actually see the difference in real life people, including yourself. It is apparent in their life style, their way of talking, their facial structure, their approach to problems etc.

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