Who is considered more ethical EII or IEI? or both?
Who is more ethical EII or IEI?
Who is considered more ethical EII or IEI? or both?
I don't really consider myself a person focused on concrete ethics and rules, but I do surprise myself how naturally and quietly against certain things and behavior I am when around people, such as filthy music, smoking, obnoxious behavior and complaining, etc. If anything I'd say it keeps me from being social as I still feel weird and different from people, probably due to my 4 nature as well. But on the other end of being a 4, if I feel like it, I can get myself into another's persona like playing a role that comes naturally/intuitively to me, I can ignore boundaries more and our relationship usually strengthens by thus. That technically can be called ethical too.
As far as EII vs IEI, I don't know. They're two different kinds of ethics both equal. Obviously depends a lot on the person. A lot of times I feel like EIEs can be lot more ethically focused than I am. My Fe-IEI sister often tries to lightly brush over what is right telling me what I should do, and my ESE mom and aunt push this onto me more deliberately, where as I just want to follow my own personal terms how I relate to the situation as an individual and can't always explain to people why. I just want it to feel authentic and know I'm being true to myself.
Ij>Ip
According to what metrics and by whom?Originally Posted by Kent Lorne
what is filthy music?
See: dubstep.
What do you mean by ethical? My bf says I'm exceptionally ethical which means being honest, good, I don't justify or find reasons for the things I do which unethical people do. If I do something wrong and it's brought to my attention, I will apologize for it and try my best to make things right.
I don't swindle people, don't approach them with ulterior motives, approach a situation with the thought of what is most good for most people.
Unlike, IEI, I am much less likely to do things without guilt; doing drugs would be done with guilt about what could happen if I lost control and hurt someone; joking around would be done with a lot of guilt about what if the person or idea I was joking around with meant something to someone and hence offended them and hurt their feelings; I'm a mess of doing things the best, the most right possible way.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 02-23-2012 at 03:16 AM.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Well.. okay let me put it this way, what is your personal relationship with morality and ethics. What do you consider to be ethical? For example Maritsa described her relationship with ethics. In the same way could you guys describe your relationship with ethics?
Also, in some forums I have seen discussion on Fi vs Fe. The Fi being more moralistic or more aware of wrong doing and injustice or something to that effect. But from all the IEIs and EIEs I do know they are just as concerned of injustice and the human environment being in pain. Maybe I am talking about sensitivity to human issues. For example I get really riled up when I see injustice or I see someone in pain or misery. I feel like I am experiencing it and I need to help them. It actually transfers to my body. ( Do other IEIs feel this way? ) And insensitive attitudes can really upset me. When someone cant' feel another persons pain or empathize or understand. That makes me really angry! ( That's my relationship with my ethical attitude I guess. )
@ Polikujm: That's pretty cool Polikujm. I too feel I can get myself into another's persona pretty easily and play a role that comes intuitively. It's like I can experience them. I get what you are saying about your sister. I can have my right and wrongs. I don't force other people to go by it. But yes my own sense of moral compass is very important to me. My EII friend would describe herself very much the way you do. She wants to follow her own personal terms and be authentic to what she thinks and feels and I sometimes come off us a bit of a moral police. Actually this happens with both of my EII friends. I get really mad at them sometimes for the things they say and tell them they are being so insensitive! How can they not care about the person in question or something. I feel a kind of heart break when they say certain things and feel they are being very inhuman. But I think in these situations they are just thinking of other reasons and possibilities why it might have happened, which I realized much later and understood, but usually my reaction would have been " How does it matter! The person is in pain!" But when I have said certain things myself, they felt I was being insensitive too.
So.... don't know. Also this thing I read of Fi feeling more disgust than Fe. That's strange to me cause I know Fe doms and creatives and me too, feeling incredible disgust at certain things. Don't all types actually?
Last edited by Kent Lorne; 02-23-2012 at 11:16 AM.
I would say in some cases it feels like the IEI and other Fe valuers are not letting the EII have their independence and are invading their personal emotionality, which can be quite passionate, just not always immediately when the IEI thinks we're supposed to be reacting, sometimes IEIs are too rash and worrisome and expect immediate compassion. Fi goes by our own clock so it becomes the most authentic like a flower in bloom or for the right sun to shine, sometimes this flower is offbeat and esoteric. I for one am independent and patiently internal and require this for myself. Fi is an introverted function so it likely takes more processing and thinking and something more to capture the intricacies of the individual's identity.
What I adore about XEIs is their ability and willingness to make sure everyone is having a good time and to not hurt anyone's feelings, even if they don't like the individual in question. I'm polite too, but it's more about acting right than really sincerely wishing well to the other. Despite the politeness it can be quite obvious when I dislike someone's company, as I avoid looking at their direction as much as possible, never laugh at their jokes or answer their comments/questions unless pointed directly at me and even if they are, I prefer to answer in one-word sentences (some Se polr action, huh?).
My IEI friend, on the other hand, often gets herself into trouble by being real nice to everyone and, as an astonishingly attractive female, often ends up with a bunch of jerks hanging around her trying to get into her pants. In a way this behaviour is sweet and I can appreciate it, but it's also annoying when we're spending time together or having a conversation and some redneck drunkard whose company none of us is interested in is let to interrupt.
I've always thought of this as a Fi vs. Fe thing, but then again I've met some heart-breakingly kind EIIs too. It's possible that it's jus the Se polr combined with shyness that prevents them to show their dislike of the situation, I dunno really.. Maybe this whole thing is more me-related than type-related.
I think it'sas demonstrative function. She feels what people REALLY want and it doesn't matter wether she likes the person or not, she is being nice to people. Demonstrative function can't hurt others.
And given the fact that she's an IEI, her creative functionfunctions ALL THE time. So she can get into a real trouble
Yeah I get this. Even if I don't like someone, if they are in trouble, I'll help them. Our relationship at that point doesn't matter. That's personal, nothing to do with other circumstances. But if the person hates me for instance I try to help without them noticing. Strangely I don't experience a lot of people liking me though. I mean just because you are nice to someone and help them doesn't mean anything. They need to like you as a person.
I also always feel that... you never know. This person might be nice. I remember my friend's bf use to be really mean to me. He was constantly on my case and some how he didn't like me at all. And he would yell about god knows what and humiliate me and every given chance. Or rather he just found me to be something strange and weird and not in a good way. In a really outcast bad way. But I use to help him with things sometimes because he needed it. This has been my problem since childhood. Even if someone is abusive I just seem to help. I don't think anyone would consider this good. To me it really doesn't matter. I don't see it as good or bad. I just see it as help. That's it.
No.... trust me people don't look so kindly on it. They think I do all this to get them to like me. Even though they never do and I am still there for them doesn't seem to enter their head that I don't care if they like me or not. It's like regardless unconditional hatred. Though it's not like I'll talk to them or something. I won't interact with them at all and even if I do I am silent. They know I don't want to interact with them by the way I look. But if I found out from someone else that something was wrong, or I saw it for myself, my own emotions took a back seat. Suddenly that's all I could concentrate on. I think IEIs to wear their emotions on their face. More so in fact. Though it is highly controllable. But it never works. People easily read my emotions on my face no matter how much I try to smile. My EII friend said that my eyes were a give away. Everything I am thinking and feeling is right there on my face, for the whole world to see, unfortunately. You don't need a lie detector! Just read my face!
Last edited by Kent Lorne; 02-23-2012 at 01:46 PM.
Last week I took cupcakes to a woman I really don't much like and who doesn't really like me either. (she's LIE) But I knew she was having a rough time as her husband is working out of state and he's not home much so she's shouldering the parenting burden alone. I dunno, I didn't feel like I *had* to do it, but I figured why not. Plus sometimes when you treat people well, they change their opinion of you and who can't use more friends in this world. I don't think she and I will ever be bosom buddies but maybe she'll think that I'm alright.
True. I feel that way too. I too don't feel like I have to do it. I don't feel obligated. In fact whenever I do feel obligated I don't help out. I get rebellious. It has to come organically. It's just seeing someone and forming some kind of stupid bond which relates to their pain in some way and just wanting to comfort some of that pain away. I use to hope that, that would help start a friendship or make them feel differently towards me, but in my experience that never happened. So I stopped expecting that. Even if you hope people will change, you can't stop being yourself.. I guess.
I don't know about other IEIs... you can chime in here. But man we can attract a bad crowd sometimes. It can take a lot to snap out and say this is bad for me, I got to get out of here. After a long long long long time. I have learned to do that. If it feels wrong, I am out of it. No second thoughts. After sometime, how much can one fear life? After a point you got to cut loose, be yourself and move on.
I think that being polite can be really rude if it stops you mentioning something one should know. I think politeness can be close to political correctness which kills people.
Sometimes I get the feeling that many ethicals don't want to talk about stuff so that they wouldn't hurt the mood (
And people who deny their evil are one of the most crooked creatures I've known. Looking at you, Maritsa.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
This is so weird. An SLE friend of mine said this in a group and I always wondered what it meant. He said that being politically correct is a horrid thing. Why do you feel it kills people? I never asked him, so I would love to know from you.I think that being polite can be really rude if it stops you mentioning something one should know. I think politeness can be close to political correctness which kills people.
Sometimes I get the feeling that many ethicals don't want to talk about stuff so that they wouldn't hurt the mood (
And people who deny their evil are one of the most crooked creatures I've known. Looking at you, Maritsa.
Well I think it takes me a really long time to talk about what might be bothering me. But I eventually do get to it. I just need to say it in a way that person understands. And I need to get a grip of myself too. So I will be honest and not bottle things inside, but it will take me a while to get to it. If I don't say anything for long, it will result in even more stress.
I kind of get what you mean about the rudeness. True if someone isn't being honest with you and you don't know were you stand with them, that can be really disturbing. At least it disturbs me. I have seen another IEI friend of mine who will never tell me what she really thinks. She doesn't want to hurt the mood as you said. And I have to tell her, this is the time when you can get honest, brutally honest and I need it! I really really need you to be honest cause if you lie it's going to hurt me. Your honesty will actually help me! it's only when I tell her this will she be really honest. Otherwise she plays its safe and so do I. But I have learned the value of being honest with people. Learning it rather.
Road to hell paved with ethicals? Nu - uh ! Shall I show you the shortcut to hell with logicals !Just kidding! ahaha.
Like telling people they have toilet paper hanging from their pants and that sort of things?
In a way I agree, but also knowing someone had good intentions while still doing something hurtful makes the hurtful thing matter a lot less (if at all). Avoiding improperness or hurting the mood doesn't necessarily mean avoiding the bad thing itself, either. It can simply mean that you wait for the right moment to open a discussion about something negative, and do it as nicely as possible. I, for once, definitely want to talk through the negative sides to any important relationship/person rather than stay quiet and leave them bother me, but I prefer not to do that in front of others and choose such moment that the person is in a good mood, has time for it etc and phrase my words so that he/she won't feel like I'm threatening him/her, remind them of the good sides and so on.Sometimes I get the feeling that many ethicals don't want to talk about stuff so that they wouldn't hurt the mood (
And people who deny their evil are one of the most crooked creatures I've known.
Things not being said (by some factions) due to political correctness:
Someone has an unattractive trait one is unaware of ("Asshole!")
Modern drug policy doesn't work ("Junkie" "hippy!")
Democracy needs improvement ("radical!", "hippy!")
Some immigration policies are fucked up and promote racism ("racist! Isolationist!")
Socialism has sides to it ("commie!")
Capitalism has sides to it ("Greedy bastard!")
There are biological differences between people ("Chauvinist!")
State is the monopoly of violence by definition ("Anarchist!")
Taxation is armed robbery
Meat eating is usually the act of eating the now dead flesh of imprisoned conscious animals with pain and feelings ("Hippy!")
I love you ("Creep!" "you don't know me!")
I have suicidal intentions ("attention seeker!", "emo!")
It's eco friendly to take a piss in the nature ("hippie!")
The bracketed parts are the normative accusations that have established the silence which kills. They are the cards that will be played, implied or thought when someone strays from the correctness. The existence of these labels silences the would-be information sharers.
Many of these things, if left unsaid, kill people. Open discussion seems to be a key element in today's world with the information revolution and the individual chances to make an impact with the masses.
Also,
-Why? "IDIOT!"
Last edited by Aquagraph; 02-23-2012 at 03:29 PM.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
You mean the bracketed part is not said out loud....? Is that what you mean? Or if these statements are made they are slotted into the bracketed categories? Sorry get a little confused with text sometimes...
Open discussion seems to be a key element in today's world with the information revolution and the individual chances to make an impact with the masses : Wholeheartedly agree!
The bracketed part is implied, said aloud or puts a silencing fear to those who step outside the correctness. I edited it to make it clearer.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
Maritsa:TEEEHEEEEEEHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
So much for ethical huh lol.
Exactly. I get rebellious too and if I think I HAVE to do something, I'll say no. I don't really care that much if this woman likes me or not. Whatever. I mean, I just felt like giving away my cupcakes to her, in that moment. I expect nothing.
I'm learning to listen to myself and remove myself from situations/people that continuously feel bad and wrong. But I've only just learned this and I'm old so... might be more of a health thing and less having to do with type, I dunno. I don't fear much anymore. Intense physical pain maybe because I'm such a wimp and I know that if I were in pain all the time, I'd want to die. I just couldn't handle it. Otherwise, I can't think of anything I fear.I don't know about other IEIs... you can chime in here. But man we can attract a bad crowd sometimes. It can take a lot to snap out and say this is bad for me, I got to get out of here. After a long long long long time. I have learned to do that. If it feels wrong, I am out of it. No second thoughts. After sometime, how much can one fear life? After a point you got to cut loose, be yourself and move on.
[QUOTE=redbaron;850476]Exactly. I get rebellious too and if I think I HAVE to do something, I'll say no. I don't really care that much if this woman likes me or not. Whatever. I mean, I just felt like giving away my cupcakes to her, in that moment. I expect nothing.
I hear ya!
Hm, I can identify with the problem of being "too nice". When I was a teenager I used to be nice to everybody, I've always felt sympathy, I felt really badly when I heard somebody gossiping etc. I used to be very careful not to let anybody get hurt, I also felt it was wrong to gossip behind sb's back. I think I sometimes thought too much about other people and when I didn't - I felt guilty.
However, it has changed with time. Now I try to be different. I don't get offended or protect everybody when I hear sb else's gossiping - not to that extent at least. Moreover, I do some gossiping myself and I learned how to show my emotions when sb did sth wrong to me. I can be more malicious and I don't feel so guilty about that.
Moreover, I agree with the statement that it's unfair to be nice to somebody who we don't like. It's like lying or sth. When I was a teenager I had many stories with boys falling in love with me - it was because I was too nice towards them and finally it did some harm to them, didn't it? Some of them wouldn't have been hurt if I hadn't been so nice - they perceived it either as me being interested or me being an angel who doesn't have negative feelings. Both of them were wrong and I felt really guilty when I had to say "no" to these guys.
No I think it's fair to be negative
stupid question
Whatever my type happens to be I feel huge guilt whenever I do something wrong. I cannot justify my actions in any shape or form. I rarely come with much of a preplanned agenda or any hidden motives.
I desire to treat others how I would like to be treated. I am aware that I am far from perfect and have many types of flaws so I try to accept others with all of their flaws also.
I feel pain inside of myself for others. This pain occurs from things like seeing any blood, guts, gore, people engaging in risky behaviours, not seeing likely consequences, suffering, struggling, those left out/forgotten, people allowing abuse into their lives - all sorts of things.
It's like I can slip into others shoes and feel and think what they might be thinking and feeling. It’s kind of easy for me to imagine things from others perspectives - to try to see things from their angle/point of view. The pain I mentioned I experience strongly - it hurts me almost like an enormous twisty stab through the mind.
I am able though, to separate thoughts from feelings or feelings from thoughts...which I think allows me to be objective.
Of course I like to feel liked and fully accepted but this happens rarely in reality. If someone were not to like me then I probably would rather not be there but I will always try to keep my feelings under control and accept them for who they are and hope that they see my good points.
I have to be careful that I am not overused or taken advantage of by others as this has occurred in the past. So I am cautious with what I commit to and once I have internally committed I will do my best to fulfil this type or any other type of promise.
Some try to cling to me thinking that they have found a new best friend when I help them out but that is not the case. I can't be everyones new best friend and inevitably I will let nearly everyone of them down in this regard.
I often find the people who expect this from me fail to see that I am in fact quite a loner, need a lot of time out, sometimes withdraw, have low energy and that I actually enjoy this alone time.
If help is wanted I will try to assist in whatever possible way I am capable of. Probably the biggest thing I give others is my time and energies.
I like there to be a reason or point to things. I like to see that others have good intentions, are trying, growing/learning and that things are heading in a healthy, forward moving direction.
Never will I try to press my views or beliefs onto others, I more just try to gently guide if needed.
I carry some pains and disappointments from the past and can allow these at times to get the better of me for a moment. If only we could turn back time…
Sometimes I think that all of my tears have been used and that my feelings have been dulled but then something occurs and I realize that they are all still there and I am glad for this reminder.
To engage in playfulness, light teasing, joking, laughter and smiles especially with those close to me is really important.
Most seem to know that I am approachable and won't turn them away. Some don’t know where they stand with me as they find me very difficult to get a gauge on and don’t understand why I question things and sometimes ask the tough questions or push buttons. Some think that I have seen into their souls and know all of their inner secrets.
Sometimes I wonder what the point of everything is and really wonder why the creator makes us go through the motions of life and I don’t much like this game we have to play since I personally don’t play games with others.
Sometimes I think that I’m just like an ant with all the other ants but then I picture myself as this ant with fuzzy blonde hair, a naughty streak, her own special charisma, not going along with the crowds of other ants – she can do her own thing…
Last edited by Hays; 02-25-2012 at 03:01 AM.
The IEI is by philosophical standards, but everything they say is tainted by the hypocrisy they are sitting on their asses not doing anything to change their pointed observations. EIIs are by cultural and personal standards, but then by stepping outside their culture or their belief structure they become hypocrites. For instance an EII is far more likely to support the war on terror than an IEI. A good and moral person should be difficult to pin into a type.
No, it's not. It gave birth to a good answer:
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
EIIs of course.
I don't think it's even an appropriate question to ask. Sure maybe Logical types are prone to utilize logic just as much as Ethical types utilize ethics, however the terms aren't definite, only suggestive.
I'd say EIIs can reach greater intensities of "ethics" while IEIs can demonstrate "ethics" with less self-worship and more ego-detached involvement.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
EIIs, always.
Nuh-uh, my dualz totally better than yours
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
You are funny Aqua!
Got a lot of love for your duals eh? Now that's called devotion!
Interesting observation....makes a lot of sense. I relate very much to your description of how the IEI handles this.
Well, of course it's definitely suggestive but I don't think the question is inappropriate though.
EII is the most ethical of all, like a little bundle of positive humanitarian feelings all rolled up into a ball of sweet cotton candy. That is judging you, right now.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
Awww come on. IEIs can be lke that too! Sweet cotton candy like.
It's a strange question that can be answered in many ways. What particular situation are we talking about? Types will change their behavior (and IE focus) to meet new and different situations. Let's say they were both building a house; what then? Would either of them be very ethically focused? Let's say one's a lawyer and the other a psychologist. Who's more ethically focused now? If we're talking about who 'uses ethics more frequently', then it must be assessed on a case by case basis.
But, all things equal for everyone (which is never the case), we can try to discuss this theoretically. All ethical rationals (e.g. EII ESI ESE EIE) would technically 'use' ethics more and be more ethically focused as far as IEs are concerned, for the dominant function is defined as being the primary means and motivation by which the individual functions, reacts, and filters reality naturally and the creative function is also often defined as simply a means to support the dominant. So the EII's Ne is inseparable from their Fi, and the IEI's Fe is inseparable from their Ni. The IEI is more of an Ni being and just happens to make use of and value Fe.
In terms of morality and 'right and wrong', we would traditionally see the EII of being guilty of this. Yet, morality is not to be defined lightly; there wouldn't be an entire discipline of philosophy dedicated to its study and interpretation if it were to be, so I would say that the strength, use or application of a system of values/morals is more dependent upon the individual and their respective ideology (+ the outside observer making the judgement) than it is based on IE focus. The interaction with and display of one's values and how they may conflict or coincide with one's environment, however, could be connected to and IE focus, but I haven't the slightest motivation to make a jab at figuring that one out, haha.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
