Results 1 to 38 of 38

Thread: Consider this scenario

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Consider this scenario

    Someone needs something from you. Although you want something in return, they have nothing that you want. What you want from them is not unreasonable in any way, nor is it illegal. They just don't have it to give.

    Do you feel concern for this person? Do you try to help them despite knowing you will receive nothing you want in return?

  2. #2
    Killer of DJA's Fun fen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    TIM
    SEE-Fi 9w1 so/sx
    Posts
    1,148
    Mentioned
    51 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yes.
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


  3. #3
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,449
    Mentioned
    203 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    ~I wonder who he's talking about~
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    ~I wonder who he's talking about~
    I'm not talking about anyone in particular. It's the kind of choice we are faced with in life sometimes.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    TIM
    IEI
    Posts
    135
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If you unconditionally wish to give something to them, then you should. If they have nothing to give you, that's fine. Pay it forward. You will get what you want from someone else. Sometimes not all transactions are meant to be equal. There is no equal give and take. I find it better to give unconditionally instead of expecting anything back. I do want to take, but if they don't want to give that's fine. Anything taken without consent is not worth having for me. I will take from someone who gives something to me unconditionally. Give and take without conditions I think frees you from the imprisonment of a vicious cycle of debt. When I take from someone who wants something back from me, and I have nothing to give. The worth of what I have taken is too high. I can't afford it in a sense. I can't repay them, so I feel in debt and imprisoned by the transaction. But when I am given with so much abundance and unconditional freedom, I feel gratitude and freedom to utilize it. Knowing this feeling, I try to give without conditions.

  6. #6
    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    Ne-LII, 5w6
    Posts
    3,648
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If I wouldn't need it as much as (or even more) than they do, yes. For instance, if there was a famine I wouldn't give anyone my food, except for my friends and family members if they don't have anymore left. But if I had a spare part of a car I don't own (anymore), I wouldn't mind giving it to someone who needs it, even without something in return.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

  7. #7
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    5,936
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    No.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    No.
    Why?

  9. #9
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    5,936
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Why?
    Because altruism and selflessness aren't virtues, and as you stated, I have nothing to "gain" from such a transaction.

  10. #10
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It seems oversimplified; there is no context. Depends who the person is to you, if they are worth investing in, if you want to see them happy, what the thing is...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  11. #11
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    No.
    Never? What if it was your best friend?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  12. #12
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    5,936
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It seems oversimplified. Depends who the person is to you, if they are worth investing in, if you want to see them happy...
    It is simple, which is why I gave a simple answer. There is more to my answer, as well, but I haven't found any need to state it until pressed for details.

  13. #13
    the flying pig Capitalist Pig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    5,936
    Mentioned
    122 Post(s)
    Tagged
    7 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Never? What if it was your best friend?
    Then I would benefit from coming to their aid by way of reciprocity (or favors, or karma, or an I-O-U; whatever you wanna call it).

    A gain can be measured in more than just a material reward, you know.

  14. #14
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,338
    Mentioned
    210 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Someone needs something from you. Although you want something in return, they have nothing that you want. What you want from them is not unreasonable in any way, nor is it illegal. They just don't have it to give.

    Do you feel concern for this person? Do you try to help them despite knowing you will receive nothing you want in return?
    If what the person needs is something I don't particularly need, then I will offer it to them.
    If it is something I need, but could do without, I'd consider a trade.
    If it is something I need, and cannot do without, I will not consider a trade.

    Asking something from them, knowing that they do not have it or cannot access it, or puts them in an ethical quandry, is cruel, imo.

    I have often received things from people in my times of need. Without recompense.
    I have often given things to people in their times of need. Without recompense.
    I do believe in the value of pay-it-forward, both in myself, and in my faith in the other person.

    This is not to say that I will stand by while being taken advantage of.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  15. #15
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Try to help them without getting anything in return.

  16. #16
    Grand Inquisitor Bardia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    ESI
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It depends.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
    http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0

  17. #17
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    Then I would benefit from coming to their aid by way of reciprocity (or favors, or karma, or an I-O-U; whatever you wanna call it).

    A gain can be measured in more than just a material reward, you know.
    That was essentially my point, if you read back. I just thought the question was too vague to merit a real answer from the start.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  18. #18
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If I had a monopoly on the thing one wants from me, I'd gain power by giving it to the requester. I even want to keep some people in debt to me so that they will feel themselves to be in no position in my eyes.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    If I had a monopoly on the thing one wants from me, I'd gain power by giving it to the requester. I even want to keep some people in debt to me so that they will feel themselves to be in no position in my eyes.
    That's interesting. Your reasoning is in part fallacious, because I feel that I am owed everything I am needed, and would not feel indebted towards someone who gave me something I needed. (notice I said "need", not "want"). It would, in fact, make me angry that I have to go through you to get it (not necessarily towards you, but towards what I believed to be the ultimate human cause of the situation). There are a few people who would feel as you want them to feel, but I suspect it's a very small minority.

    Now my answer to the question. Yes I would. I have in the past, and would again. People are entitled to what they need. Maintaining this belief gives people reason to provide me what I need. The less this maxim is questioned, the more secure we all are. Most of us feel emotional reward for providing others what they need, enough that logical rationalizations don't even play into it. For those who do not feel such rewards, there is the argument.

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    TIM
    IEI
    Posts
    135
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Most of us feel emotional reward for providing others what they need, enough that logical rationalizations don't even play into it. For those who do not feel such rewards, there is the argument.
    True I feel this way too. There is a need which gets satisfied in giving alone.

  21. #21
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    That's interesting. Your reasoning is in part fallacious, because I feel that I am owed everything I am needed, and would not feel indebted towards someone who gave me something I needed. (notice I said "need", not "want"). It would, in fact, make me angry that I have to go through you to get it (not necessarily towards you, but towards what I believed to be the ultimate human cause of the situation). There are a few people who would feel as you want them to feel, but I suspect it's a very small minority.
    If there is no power gained, then I shouldn't help you. Unless I want to feel good about myself like I often do. Imagine if you would live in my apartment instead of being homeless.. I'd totally have power over you and you wouldn't want to make me disappointed. I could ask you to do my dishes or the like. If I'm the only one in town with crack, all the real addicts will suck my cock for it. But I guess sexual satisfaction and the ability to do chores are things that I want and many can give.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,967
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well they may not ask for that because it impacts their self-esteem. Besides, privacy is something YOU need. Ultimately apartment sharing may impact you emotionally. So it may be unfair of them to ask that of you, because emotional health is a need, not a want. What is being discussed is the opportunity for wants, not needs. But what they really need is an opportunity to make money for themselves. They need a job that they are content with. For you to hold power over them without helping them meet the need that required them to need from you, is unethical because it means you are not being responsive to their emotional state.

    The situation you are proposing is indeed uncomfortable because it raises a lot of questions that threaten one's self-image and trouble the conscience (creating a distraction), and as such it behooves society to create conditions under which the situation does not arise.

    My interpretation of your motivation, Aquagraph, is that you want to create conditions that compel people to do things you don't want to do whether or not they want to do them. In socionics terms, you want to have other people handling your weaker EM elements, and are willing to agree to penalties for it not happening. However there is the problem of ascribing the penalties, a bearance you are willing to equate with destitution.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 02-23-2012 at 06:04 PM.

  23. #23
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If someone needs my help, and I'm able to help them and want to help them, I do without looking for or expecting anything in return.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  24. #24
    redbaron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    9,321
    Mentioned
    16 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It seems oversimplified; there is no context. Depends who the person is to you, if they are worth investing in, if you want to see them happy, what the thing is...
    exactly. depends.

  25. #25
    Creepy-Snaps

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Lorne View Post
    If you unconditionally wish to give something to them, then you should. If they have nothing to give you, that's fine. Pay it forward. You will get what you want from someone else. Sometimes not all transactions are meant to be equal. There is no equal give and take. I find it better to give unconditionally instead of expecting anything back. I do want to take, but if they don't want to give that's fine. Anything taken without consent is not worth having for me. I will take from someone who gives something to me unconditionally. Give and take without conditions I think frees you from the imprisonment of a vicious cycle of debt. When I take from someone who wants something back from me, and I have nothing to give. The worth of what I have taken is too high. I can't afford it in a sense. I can't repay them, so I feel in debt and imprisoned by the transaction. But when I am given with so much abundance and unconditional freedom, I feel gratitude and freedom to utilize it. Knowing this feeling, I try to give without conditions.
    This is awesome mindset. I was going to write something like this, but you already did, so I'll just re-quote it haha.

    If anything I'll add, I'm willing to give first, in order to get something in return later. Pay it forward. However, I'll periodically assess how much effort I'm putting in, compared to what the other person is getting. If I'm going 90%, and they're going 10% of the way, I'll back up to 50%. As the saying goes, "I'll drive to the end of the world for you, but only if you're in the car with me". Gotta make sure the other person gives their fair share, when they can and are able.

  26. #26
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    18,006
    Mentioned
    162 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sure. Don't ask anything in return.

  27. #27
    "Cool Mafia Godfather" ~SLE Leader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    TIM
    ESTp 8
    Posts
    918
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If its possible and doesn't come into conflict with something im trying to do, i'd help them anyways, doesn't matter to me. People are saying it depends on the person and what not, but that doesn't matter to me either. As long as im in a good mood, i'll go to hell and back doing favors for strangers as long as they know how to ask me properly.

    I mean most times I will be expecting something in return, but if they can't its no problem. I get most of my satisfaction from the meer gesture of helping them out and putting a smile on their face, or any other sign of appreciation.
    Last edited by Leader; 02-23-2012 at 11:03 PM.

  28. #28
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    If its possible and doesn't come into conflict with something im trying to do, i'd help them anyways, doesn't matter to me. People are saying it depends on the person and what not, but that doesn't matter to me either. As long as im in a good mood, i'll go to hell and back doing favors for strangers as long as they know how to ask me properly.
    I'm the same way, actually. It really depends on my impression of the person though, whether or not I like them just instinctively, or can sympathize with their scenario, see them as deserving, etc.

    I mean most times I will be expecting something in return, but if they can't its no problem. I get most of my satisfaction from the meer gesture of helping them out and putting a smile on their face, or any other sign of appreciation.
    Amen.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  29. #29
    Coldest of the Socion EyeSeeCold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Holy Temple of St. Augusta
    Posts
    3,693
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It depends a number of things: what exactly do they want, do they need it, do I need it now, will I need it later, can I afford to give it away, will they put it to use, do I really want to commit to this etc. All these sorts of contingencies go through my head which have some weight in my consideration of helping someone out, but the most definite thing that compels me to act is when I clearly see that someone needs something.

    If someone needed something from me on the spot that person is more likely to receive it if I have it on me and am not currently using it. In terms of my direct assistance, as a human resource, the same goes if I'm not currently doing anything important.

    I don't usually ask for or expect anything in return because I don't always have a clear idea of what I want. I wouldn't turn down some kind of appreciation though.

    What I would take to heart the most is if someone intentionally didn't use what I gave them or generally disregarded it. Waste of my time and effort.
    (i)NTFS

    An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
    and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI

    31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
    My work on Inert/Contact subtypes

    Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
    Socionics Tests Database
    Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites


    Fidei Defensor

  30. #30
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    if someone borrows my lighter, I don't ask for it back; but if they want a cigarette, I light it for them.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  31. #31
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @tcaud
    You made me sound evil. Nice. I do that too.

    Well now I seem to grasp more about the nature of the question and the contextual meaning of your terms used here.

    Not saying I wouldn't act like that you described me to, but I'm also a closet altruist. There are few I'd take a bullet for.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  32. #32
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,785
    Mentioned
    52 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Someone needs something from you. Although you want something in return, they have nothing that you want. What you want from them is not unreasonable in any way, nor is it illegal. They just don't have it to give.

    Do you feel concern for this person? Do you try to help them despite knowing you will receive nothing you want in return?
    It all very much depends on the person involved and the thing required. As an IT professional, I'm frequently asked about computer problems. But I only help out people in my inner circle (family, close friends) with that. Part of it is altruism (the joy of helping out other people), but also the idea that although they can't return what I want now, I will be able to call upon them to do me a favor someday. Also, in a network of people who reciproke what they get, I might not get something from the specific person, but I might get something from someone else. You should really consider reciprocity more in terms of social networks than in one on one relationships.

    Now with people I do not have affectionate relationships with, I simply refuse to help them. This is something I had to learn the hard way: there are many people who only contact you when they need something from you, but never to invite you over for a beer. So my rule is: if there is a significant affectionate relationship, I'll do what I can, within reasonable bounds. If not, I'll send you an invoice.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  33. #33
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 641 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,628
    Mentioned
    635 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yes.

    Of course theres context to consider like what I think of the person and what they want. but I wouldn't refuse to help for the sole reason I wouldn't get what I wanted in return. that seems robotic and silly.

  34. #34
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,632
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well generally speaking yes, but please don't universalize this statement.

    For example I'm sure there are millions of people that need my food and my house and cannot give much in return, but I'm not going to starve and be homeless.

    However if we're talking about actual everyday occurrences then yes, sure.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  35. #35
    ☁ ☁ ☁ ☁ ☁ Birdie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Seattle
    TIM
    EII
    Posts
    840
    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Someone needs something from you. Although you want something in return, they have nothing that you want. What you want from them is not unreasonable in any way, nor is it illegal. They just don't have it to give.

    Do you feel concern for this person? Do you try to help them despite knowing you will receive nothing you want in return?
    Good things come to those who wait.

  36. #36
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    God, if I ever got a tenth of what I've given, I'd be rich. Rich RICH...but maybe not monetarily rich.

  37. #37
    Korpsy Knievel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,234
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Someone needs something from you. Although you want something in return, they have nothing that you want. What you want from them is not unreasonable in any way, nor is it illegal. They just don't have it to give.

    Do you feel concern for this person? Do you try to help them despite knowing you will receive nothing you want in return?
    There are several times I've helped people who've expressed regret at being unable to recompense me for my trouble and I've simply brushed it off with "Buy me a beer sometime." Ask me directly and I'm usually easy. Try to manipulate me and I'll laugh in your face.

  38. #38
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kansas
    TIM
    Introvert sp/sx
    Posts
    7,739
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If someone needs my help and it's not much trouble, I help them. If someone needs my help and it's a lot of trouble, but they have something to give me that makes it worth my while, I help them. If it's family, I help them.

    Also, if you have food, I will help you.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •