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    Default Ni vs. Ne

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    Last edited by Kent Lorne; 08-10-2012 at 06:03 PM.

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    I've read Sherlock Holmes is LSE, valuing Te and Si. I'm not sure only Ns are creative. I think of Ne as being sensitive to new opportunities and options, and I cannot for the life of me explain Ni. :/
    And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.


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    It isn't about "finding patterns and open to new ideas and principles and elucidating them." That's trivially any type, and why alpha socionicists keep making errors in judgment we don't quite know.

    What you really might look into for getting a firm sense of the dichotomization between Ni and Ne are factors such as aspectionics as well as their judicious/decisive natures.

    In aspectionics, Ni is defined as a field element, the incoming information emerges via intension or internalization, where as Ne as an object function, although it is also internal like Ni, functionally it derives inference and connotation from what can be seen externally inheriting its perception from the objective world, the objects themselves. Ni is also dynamic and contextual, where as Ne by process considers content in its static nature. These longer definitions can help expound upon the essence of what each do.
    Last edited by 717495; 02-21-2012 at 11:08 PM.

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    Stupid Alphas making errors in judgement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Stupid Alphas making errors in judgement.
    Aren't you an alpha!? Why is there judgement wrong exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Lorne View Post
    Aren't you an alpha!? Why is there judgement wrong exactly?
    He is sarcastically denouncing polikujm's implicit suggestion that Alphas are more prone to blunders resulting from overgeneralizing than other types, attempting to cast the shortcomings of Socionists in the light of imperfect progress.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    He is sarcastically denouncing polikujm's implicit suggestion that Alphas are more prone to blunders resulting from overgeneralizing than other types, attempting to cast the shortcomings of Socionists in the light of imperfect progress.
    Haha... cool. Do you have some suggestions or insights for this topic? I would love to hear them.

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    Alphas are the ingenious nerds
    Betas are the artists and cool kids
    Gammas are the rich and in charge
    Deltas are the church and farmers

    There, we happy now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Lorne View Post
    Haha... cool. Do you have some suggestions or insights for this topic? I would love to hear them.
    Mmmm...I'm good with words, but not that good. You have to catch me in the right mood to really talk shop about functions...maybe later.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Alphas are the ingenious nerds
    Betas are the artists and cool kids
    Gammas are the rich and in charge
    Deltas are the church and farmers

    There, we happy now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    poli just won Socionics. New high score.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Alphas are the ingenious nerds
    Betas are the artists and cool kids
    Gammas are the rich and in charge
    Deltas are the church and farmers

    There, we happy now.

    Nahh deltas are the artists & cool kids.
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    @ Ashton: Thank you so much for so many links and so much information! i am gonna sit and go through them now. This is really nice! " Big smile" here! haha. Let me start going through it all and get back to you. Thank you!

    And you are right. I didn't believe creativity was some exclusive skill to the Ne ! Each type arrives it at differently. I was saying that to Lemontress that SEI (Si) may have a more instinctual gut feel to their creativity, vs ILE Ne who is I don't know exploring new ideas towards it? You get my drift. Different source of creativity and what not.

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    Is there a cool church?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    Is there a cool church?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae View Post
    Is there a cool church?
    spaghetti-costume.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    In my opinion Vertigo by Alfred Hitchcock is a very Ni movie. And Casablanca an Ne movie. Hope it helps

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    Last edited by Kent Lorne; 08-10-2012 at 06:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Deltas are the church and farmers
    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Nahh deltas are the artists & cool kids.
    WTF, I thought Deltas are cowboys!?
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    N - possibilities as to whence it came and whether it is going in a given situation; development,
    Ni - possibilities of the things that they are reflecting on
    Ne - possibilities of the things in objects, external things like the possibilities of computers

    When I use my Ni:

    My boyfriend says we need to go eat, will we have enough time to go there by foot; the situation of going, action, moving, walking to the restaurant is played in my head as the clock moves and I can recall exactly how much time it will take us to walk there, eat, and get back.

    When I use my Ne:

    I look at a computer and the possibilities of that object evolve into making, creating a computer (another object) without a hard casing, like a generated item in the air, maybe using some special glasses to operate. This is the NEW object called a computer of the future as I see it evolving into. The computer came from a keyboard.

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    So, to reframe this thread:

    Ne is to as Ni is to

    Got it.


    Edit: This is a super complex concept. I had to rethink it.

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    Its a long time I haven't been interested about the distinction beetween Ni and Ne, but Ive come recently accidentally to a new information wich have increased my interest.
    These understanding aren't really "socionic based" : my goal was, trying to understand the process of thinking of each intuition, and the difference, not especially with term usually used like "field", "static", ect.

    My original view is that Ne is able to switch the root/the crux of a phenomen to another one too see similarities and build new understanding from that. Basic. The intrinsic question behind this is "is the abstract of this phenomen/idea different from this other one ?", and the response is often "yes or no", ie its not clearly delimited like in a true/false boolean : its "possible". Thinking side, and/or feeling side help to determine wich one is the more likely.


    parenthesis : In my view, Ne can be defined as "anxiety/fear", not in the sens that Ne user is "anxious" in the common acceptation of the term, but because it replicate what is often defined as "fear". Thats another debate anyway.

    The Ne "creativity" come from the possible association beetween many stuff hapening in reality. Seeing a sea shell lead to think about a spiral which compose the sea shell, leading to link it with a mathematical stuff and another stuff wich is composed with a spiral (in an abstract way) or other milions non-perceptible thought, to a musical piece wich could contain the same "crux". For example.

    Its important to notice that Ne is contextual : the when and the where phenomen happen is registred and cannot be dissociated from event : the Ne user, while observing things from a global point of view, is paradoxically pulled into the "peculiar" when it come to the context of phenomen. A peculiar sea shell leading me to think that A, B, C when I was at X. The mental image stay contextual, and the reality around the peculiar phenomen is not dissociated from the rest of the reality/possibility.

    The sea shell, for a Ne user, in fact, is not "THE" sea shell : its "one" of the sea shell which have been met in a moment, among all other sea shell existing (or probably existing).
    This is this difference that I came to realize after reading the surrealist manifesto from Andre Breton, especially the Pierre Reverdy quote at the beginning of the second tier of the manifesto.

    For Ni user, it seem that "a" sea shell is quickly decontextualized, and it become "the" sea shell, in an archetypal way. Like "The Fire" have a meaning for all of us in a cultural way, wich can be in a poetical point of view an allegory of "the passion, the ardor" or "a consuming love", "The" decontextualized sea shell acquire a meaning from superposition with another seemingly unrelated mental image commin from memory.
    This is the same things with superposition of event, wich allow to get a inevitable "impression" of where it can go in the future, from a "meaning" point of view of the event much more than a "scenario possibility" (wich is more Ne).

    Ni and Ne have the two flash of unconscious : Ne is about sudden realization of comparizon, sudden extending of understanding or sudden harmonization of knowledge ("all the dots are connectings"), while Ni seem to be about sudden flash of unconscious, an seemingly unrelated image wich suddenly appear and form meaning with current one, but in a less "comparative" way : it just "happen to be true", it is "revealed" as it is said in wikisocion.


    PS1 : I dont think there is something really new here, but the decontextualization point is something wich really have help me to understand, so perhaps you too.


    PS2 : Im on some fucking bad med and have a tendency to forget word in phrase, sorry if its the case here.
    Last edited by noid; 02-24-2012 at 03:29 PM.
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    Kent, I haven't officially decided which type I think you are yet, but I don't think IEI quite fits. I suspect you may possibly be a fellow IEE. I think you should talk with WA, Workaholics Anon. She originally started out as IEI, just like you, then realized she was IEE after understanding the differences between Ni/Ne. So talk with her, maybe send her a private message when you get the chance.

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    Last edited by Kent Lorne; 10-07-2013 at 06:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post

    This is the same things with superposition of event, wich allow to get a inevitable "impression" of where it can go in the future, from a "meaning" point of view of the event much more than a "scenario possibility" (wich is more Ne).
    .
    Could you elaborate a little more on this point? Superimposition of event which allows to get an inevitable impression of where it can go in the future.. like an example of this in action?

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    This is really hard to say... Even if it sound mad, Ive made all this explanation from introspection mainly, with Ni as my demonstrative, and its not something I can put in world...While it was easier to explain (or more suggest here) how it work toward object and the "meaning formation", the relation with timing of event is really harder to get to me : simply because im aware I can use the first one in some context, but It seem I rely too much on Ne possibility (generally the worst one lol) when it come to "predicting" something (thats not really predicting, thats more considerating the possibility of X). I can just imagine a similar mechanism wich govern the relation of Ni with the course of event, wich was basically what Ive trying to discuss here. Ill have a hard time to make it more clear. Ive not a precise understanding of how the heck Ni can predict the future, but imo it have to do with the dynamical aspect of it, wich I probably lack to much to do an intelligible description.

    From what I see, Ni is not a catalyst for action like Ne is (Ive an idea, what a can "do"), its more a mechanism wich is catalyst of decision - BUT WARNING - its not like a judging function, in the sense you dont take into account tangible fact and do a conscious descision..... Its about unconscious/pre conscious "sign" wich is present intrinsically in an event when you reflect on your imagination fjdlksjflksjflkdsfjlk brainfuck thats really hard to explain


    im going mad omg

    Seriously I cant explain more, the example about the decontextualization and the formation of meaning is a process sufficiently different from Ne for determining if you utilize the one or the other imo. This is not thats an abstract function, thats just that no one can explain what seem to from the unconscious, just interpret at least.

    edit : the last phrase - what I was thinking behind this is that I get somewhat the impression that Ni is "thinking without origin" (in a kind of factual sens), unlike Ne there is no tangible tracable route to a concrete "fact" on wich an idea is based... If Ni user can say something about this it would be interesting.
    Last edited by noid; 02-25-2012 at 01:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post
    This is really hard to say... Even if it sound mad, Ive made all this explanation from introspection mainly, with Ni as my demonstrative, and its not something I can put in world...While it was easier to explain (or more suggest here) how it work toward object and the "meaning formation", the relation with timing of event is really harder to get to me : simply because im aware I can use the first one in some context, but It seem I rely too much on Ne possibility (generally the worst one lol) when it come to predicting something. I can just imagine a similar mechanism wich govern the relation of Ni with the course of event, wich was basically what Ive trying to discuss here. Ill have a hard time to make it more clear. Ive not a precise understanding of how the heck Ni can predict the future, but imo it have to do with the dynamical aspect of it, wich I probably lack to much to do an intelligible description.

    From what I see, Ni is not a catalyst for action like Ne is (Ive an idea, what a can "do"), its more a mechanism wich is catalyst of decision - BUT WARNING - its not like a judging function, in the sense you dont take into account tangible fact and do a conscious descision..... Its about unconscious/pre conscious "sign" wich is present intrinsically in an event when you reflect on your imagination fjdlksjflksjflkdsfjlk brainfuck thats really hard to explain


    im going mad omg

    Seriously I cant explain more, the example about the decontextualization and the formation of meaning is a process sufficiently different from Ne for determining if you utilize the one or the other imo. This is not thats an abstract function, thats just that no one can explain what seem to from the unconscious, just interpret at least.
    Hey, look it is me, Noid, I wrote damn frigging post, alright.

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    idiot
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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post
    idiot
    Just returning the favour. C'est la vie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post
    idiot
    Don't be so rude, it's called alcoholism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anglas View Post
    Don't be so rude, it's called alcoholism.
    Ye noid, don'e be so rude it is called typing oneself LIE. Oh I'm sorry, you don't type yourself LIE, you have been allowed to do so you fuck.

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    Noid, there's no simplicity to your post.

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    Noid, I think you do actually have a good grasp on the nature of the intuitive functions. It may be helpful to try applying that knowledge to the other functions, and see what broader connections you can make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent Lorne View Post
    Sometimes I come across things like Ne is related to creativity and Ni to foresight or intuition of the future?
    The other way around, in a way. Ni is a Fields function, it does not need bodies (context, present) to work, it can generate ideas from what is already known a priori. Ni "calculates" how things develop or can develop, just not actual things, but in general - abstract. Ne gets new insights into existing, given things. You can't talk about Ne without instances (Bodies), therefore new insights, new perceptions of the objects are generated, true creativity always comes from Fields (Introverted) functions.

    Example: man (Fields) VS a certain man (John, Bodies).
    Xi->Ye: you find out something about the object John (Ye) by making new imaginary inferences on the concept of man using Xi. Xi (so as Ni) cannot be used on the Bodies (John) directly, it is introverted, it makes abstraction of what comes from outside.
    Xe->Yi: you can tell more about the concept of man (Yi) by making new observations on one or more of its instances (like John) using Xe. Xe (as Ne) cannot generate information without external objects, from pure concepts; since it is a Bodies function, it is simply inapplicable to Fields information.

    FTR: Ni does not foretell the future, but Ni blocks/Egos do (Ni + Je).
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    Even though I oftentimes go to painstaking lengths to ensure the context and meaning of my posts are as clear as possible, I love it when people have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noid View Post
    Its important to notice that Ne is contextual : the when and the where phenomen happen is registred and cannot be dissociated from event : the Ne user, while observing things from a global point of view, is paradoxically pulled into the "peculiar" when it come to the context of phenomen. A peculiar sea shell leading me to think that A, B, C when I was at X. The mental image stay contextual, and the reality around the peculiar phenomen is not dissociated from the rest of the reality/possibility. ...

    For Ni user, it seem that "a" sea shell is quickly decontextualized, and it become "the" sea shell, in an archetypal way. Like "The Fire" have a meaning for all of us in a cultural way, wich can be in a poetical point of view an allegory of "the passion, the ardor" or "a consuming love", "The" decontextualized sea shell acquire a meaning from superposition with another seemingly unrelated mental image commin from memory.
    This is the same things with superposition of event, wich allow to get a inevitable "impression" of where it can go in the future, from a "meaning" point of view of the event much more than a "scenario possibility" (wich is more Ne).
    One thing you need to know is that both IP functions look at the interrelationship between the object and its context, and interpret change and movement (dynamics of fields.) Both EP functions look at the object and content itself, and interpret fixed qualities (statics of objects.)

    This means that saying is a function of context and is a function of content is incorrect, and the ideation you make is valid yet the exact opposite (lest you chose to define it differently from the pregiven terms.) Instead, being an intuitive function assumes the essence of the object itself, it looks at the internal static content, and therein infers a meaning or mental image for what simply appears (ie. an archetype or equivalent and its potential.) This is why you see in many descriptions, these types are not so much about possibilities, as they are at showing aptitude sizing up things and individuals for their potential and inherent meaning. which is sometimes described with predictive ability (let's take with some caution), is due to it being an intuitive function which interprets the change that occurs between a certain object and its given context, and therein it can speculate what happens to something in an engrained process and forms clear imagery. This is why you see in many descriptions, these types are skilled at forming sequences of imagery from events in their imagination, which is said to sometimes apply to direct reality and a predictive ability. I personally think, and by type descriptions, that both and can lead to predictive ability. It's only due to the static nature of which doesn't seek to offer context, that works in a kind of lightbulby process and doesn't draw as much into event formations.

    The other information aspect is internal/external, which in this case differentiates between intuition and sensing. The internal function (intuition) makes implicit conjectures, while the external function (sensing) makes explicit observations. This means you can look at being the same as , only that happens in real-time thus achieves its dynamic clarity by way of sensory stimuli and making adaptations to this real-time. You can look at the same way as , as an either sensory or intuitive evaluation of an object and it's inherent quality.
    Last edited by 717495; 02-27-2012 at 07:18 AM.

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    When I come across a seashell I ponder:
    • what species the animal was that once called it home
    • the biological process by which that mollusk built the shell via secretion of minerals it absorbed into its body from water and nutrients
    • its geographical origin and the route by which currents and waves brought the shell ashore
    • whether the critter's normal lifespan was completed uninterrupted or if it was cut short by accidental causes
    • the course of its genus' evolution and how such animals come to be at all
    • the reabsortion of the shell's material back into the environment and what objects it will be assimilated into from there
    • whether the shell once housed a hermit crab or other animal since its original owner expired
    • and so on.

    So yes, it's just a shell right now, but prior to that the material it's made of belonged to several other things, and with the passage of time it will become part of several other things again.

    It wasn't — it is — it won't be.

  39. #39
    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Ne is a balloon, Ni is a pinata.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

  40. #40
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    Ni existentially absolves dispositions of the self. It maintains a psychological existential balance. The selfs disposition towards past experiences guides future behavior. Ni sees how the past & future are tied together, & it guards against self degradation.

    Ne is transient, structural / relational, & experiential. Ne tries to maintain a running balance & neutrality in assessment. When it perceives a point of emphasis it searches to requalify the information. It decontextualizes current perceptions with transcendent possibilities.

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