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Thread: Subcultures and quadras/types

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Default Subcultures and quadras/types

    My life as an extreme extrovert and social chameleon has made me acquainted with many subcultures and I've swam through genres like a.. thing that swims fluently.
    Here are my observations about the average quadra/type correlation in subcultures:

    Hipsters are pretty delta, maybe some alphas
    Punk rockers are beta mostly, although the political anarcho idealists are usually alpha. There are some gammas as well and they will call you a fashion punk rocker or a wannabe if you don't have the right kinda gear, diet and band patches.
    Crust rockers are gamma/beta
    Local heavy metal people are alpha/beta.
    Hippies are very varied, I will try to make more categories for hippy subtypes
    Skinheads are beta
    Goths are beta/gamma, some cybergoths are alpha
    Demoscene sounds fucking alpha, but I don't know too many of them
    Industrial and sXe seem Se/Ni


    These are my own observations from the local subcultures.

    And don't go around waving the not type related card or I'll type you as a spoilsport. Maybe some things aren't type related but there are correlations we can think of. Trying to dismiss a theory is unconstructive and unscientific approach to the allegation of the existence of a correlation. And, no, we have no firm scientific means of verifying a socionics theory, but if you were looking for such, the fuck are you doing here?

    I also don't want to witness the "I am (/my friend is) A type and part of Z subculture although you said Zs are B and C types; therefore you must be wrong" argument. I SPEAK IN GENERALIZATIONS, DEAL WITH IT. This is not to say that I am not interested on your views on the matter, naturally, even if they would contain you and your subculture to back up the allegation.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    And don't go around waving the not type related card or I'll type you as a spoilsport. Maybe some things aren't type related but there are correlations we can think of. Trying to dismiss a theory is unconstructive and unscientific approach to the allegation of the existence of a correlation. And, no, we have no firm scientific means of verifying a socionics theory, but if you were looking for such, the fuck are you doing here?

    I also don't want to witness the "I am (/my friend is) A type and part of Z subculture although you said Zs are B and C types; therefore you must be wrong" argument. I SPEAK IN GENERALIZATIONS, DEAL WITH IT. This is not to say that I am not interested on your views on the matter, naturally, even if they would contain you and your subculture to back up the allegation.
    Heh, attack is the best form of defense. Not that I don't agree with what you said.
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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Heh, attack is the best form of defense. Not that I don't agree with what you said.
    It was a pre-emptive strike. I do this a lot in IRL too, noticed?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Cool idea, I too have walked a variety of sociocultural paths...

    Electro/Rave scene is decidedly Alpha/Beta

    Surface drug culture is very Democratic, Alpha/Gamma, just some light hustling and connection-building...

    Heavier druggy culture is mostly Beta/Gamma typically; haven't met many Si/Ne types who get deep in the scene; people higher up, and also those using more illegal/powerful/addictive substances, tend to be much more selective and reclusive

    Hippie/festy scene is varied, but predominantly Alpha>Delta>Gamma IMO; there are some noticeable patches of Betas in the festy scene but these are frequently also electro/rave scene kids

    Fire spinners are kind of a subset of hippy/festy scene, seems to have an Aristocratic bent

    Hipsters seem mostly Alphas, some Deltas and Betas, rarely Gammas IME

    Upward Mobility black people are generally Alpha/Beta; there are Deltas and Gammas that fit the mold but don't really embody the ethos.

    Industrial scene is definitely Beta/Gamma

    Goths are mostly Alpha/Beta, some overlap with industrial and metal scenes

    Metal scene seems decidedly Alpha from what I've seen

    Tech geek culture is largely Alpha, although there is bleed with hifi culture which is rather Delta

    Southern ghetto white trash redneck culture is Beta/Gamma, those fucks know how to stick together and they party hard as hell; ICP is big, and ICP has probably the most fanatically loyal fans of any musical phenomenon ever, period.

    Deep south rednecks are more Gamma/Delta; don't fuck with their guns or booze

    High class southern culture is Delta as hell

    Bostonian culture is Delta as hell, Boston is kind of your stereotypical "big city with a small town feel," lots of old timers and good ole boys, everything is business as usual

    New England culture is Gamma/Delta; money decides your place, connections determine your rank; personality takes a back seat unless you're a real spark

    Midwestern culture is Delta

    ...

    *shudder*

    Oregon/Portlander culture is waaaaaaay Alpha, everyone is super nice but luckily it's not overly fake yet

    California seems to trend from Alpha to Beta as you head south towards LA.



    Broader observations:

    Canadian culture seems Alpha-esque.

    Indian culture is Gamma/Delta; mostly just Te/Fi as shit

    Black culture is hugely Aristocratic, although it is trending towards Democracy

    White "culture" seems to be Delta/Gamma, mostly Democratic assumptions but also appeals to the system.

    Japanese culture is Alpha since WWII

    European culture seems Democratic
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    PS this is a pretty unabashedly Aristocratic activity, in case you were still having trouble with your type...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Very nice, Gilly, very nice indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    PS this is a pretty unabashedly Aristocratic activity, in case you were still having trouble with your type...
    QFT
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    My attempt:
    - Hard & Heavy generally ST, Delta and Beta.
    - Black Metal - Beta (not to say that there are no influent bands of other flavors, i.e. Satyricon Alpha, Emperor Gamma, or Darkthrone Delta).
    - Punk - Delta all the way IMO. I disagree with the OP that punk is Beta-Alpha, classical punk is a reaction to anything that could be called style, rules, aesthetic, ideal. Later stylistic variations (i.e. Post-Punk, some Goth) are indeed rather Beta.
    - Skinhead - Aristocratic (Beta/Delta).
    - Goth - fully Ni Valuing - Beta & Gamma.
    - Electronic - hmmm this is a broad field that means a lot of things, but I'd say Alpha, then Gamma, rather not Delta. I know many NTs in the field, you know, synthetizers, samplers, processors, etc.
    - Hip-Hop - can't tell, maybe all the quadras.

    In general:
    - Avantgarde of any sort is Ni. (FTR, processing the concept of "avant-garde" comes exclusively through Ni, as do concepts such as "destiny", "progress" and "evolution" in some respects, "next-generation", "futuristic", etc)
    - Old-school is IMO Si/Ne.
    - Experimental, when not avant-garde is rather Ne. The two are almost always confused, but they differ radically: members of avantgarde movements play an active role in innovation, attitude is a priori, premeditated. Experimental is not a movement, but spontaneous groups that appear around some new ideas that are initially backward compatible, not necessarily "different", but just new.
    - Established, renown is Se. Not the same thing with old-school; while old-school comes naturally and just sticks, established styles are here to stay and promoted.
    - Underground is IMO related to Irrational attitude, but also to Intuition for different reasons (see avantgarde and experimental). However, lately there are two types of underground, true underground, which is adhered to spontaneously, and this media acclaimed "underground" which in fact is mainstream, except it has underground roots, people join it purposefully, just because they heard of it, instead of the ideas they relate to, which happen to be less popular. Aristocratic and Ethical undergrounders often loathe mainstream just because it is mainstream.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    PS this is a pretty unabashedly Aristocratic activity, in case you were still having trouble with your type...
    that's not aristocracy - that's the social instinct: link

    you're both sx/so

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    that's not aristocracy - that's the social instinct: link

    you're both sx/so
    Two pseudo-psychological theories having different terms for the same thing?

    NOT POSSIBLE

    BRAIN EXPLODING
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    It's funny, strrrng is decidedly sx/sp and yet he and I have such "aristocratic" discussions constantly.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    UG urban area hip hoppers are beta. You know the ones that are very spesific about where they hail from and wear their pride like some kinda redneckish crown.

    Old punk (Ramones, Clash etc) is delta, new hardcore punk is more beta.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Two pseudo-psychological theories having different terms for the same thing?

    NOT POSSIBLE

    BRAIN EXPLODING
    i kno rite?

    turns out it's not aristocracy since there are plenty of betas and deltas typing as so-last

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It's funny, strrrng is decidedly sx/sp and yet he and I have such "aristocratic" discussions constantly.
    or may be he is sx/so too and not "decidedly" sx/sp, or he may be just adapting in conversation to you

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siuntal View Post
    i kno rite?

    turns out it's not aristocracy since there are plenty of betas and deltas typing as so-last


    or may be he is sx/so too and not "decidedly" sx/sp, or he may be just adapting in conversation to you
    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p..._and_democracy

    It's not about placing IMPORTANCE on these groupings, necessarily; it's not like Betas and Deltas all marry in their own socioeconomic class. It's rather about the natural ability to perceive groups as they exist in terms of their emergent, loose but self-defined boundaries.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Another good example is Aquagraph's self-title, which he's had for a while "Decadent Charlatan." Now if he was with his group of friends, he might barely even think of himself in this way, because there's a good chance they are all a bit like him. But he knows where he stands "in the big picture;" he recognizes the difference in groups. When he's in the group of friends, he's probably not any more "decadent" or depraved than they are, and so he doesn't go around CLAIMING it, but he knows that, to an international audience on an internet forum, this is how he will appear.

    It's more about "group sensibility" than anything; Aristocrats just have a more natural sense of where they stand in relation to a group. They make really good corporate climbers or entertainers because these areas have established (if sometimes implicit) codes of behavior and methods of operation. It's always easy for me to blend with a group like this because I can look around and see what roles people fill, and either see where the opportunity is to make a unique niche for myself, or fill an existing vacuum if it's something I'm capable of.

    On the flip side, Democrats are more at home in areas like social networking that involve one-to-one contacts without any preconceived notion of status or rank; insurance sales, freelance work, and starting a business are things that come to mind. This kind of thing feels awkward and forced to me because it feels as though it has no social context, no rules, no boundaries, and without prior assessment of the person's knowledge or capabilities, it feels hard to make a judgment.

    It's just two different styles of thinking; they aren't as DRASTIC in terms of its manifestations as some of the language might lead you to think it is, but IMO the democratic/aristocratic attitudes seem to me to be some of the most integral and obviously extant pieces of Socionics theory.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    You're going to have sex with him or not, Gilly?

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Midwestern culture is Delta

    ...

    *shudder*
    I actually like this. There's something about people from the Midwest that I admire, like they have a strong internal locus of control and sense of personal responsibility.

    Edo/Tokugawa Japan has seemed stereotypically Delta to me, with Heisei era verging much more Alpha-ey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    It's more about "group sensibility" than anything; Aristocrats just have a more natural sense of where they stand in relation to a group. They make really good corporate climbers or entertainers because these areas have established (if sometimes implicit) codes of behavior and methods of operation. It's always easy for me to blend with a group like this because I can look around and see what roles people fill, and either see where the opportunity is to make a unique niche for myself, or fill an existing vacuum if it's something I'm capable of.
    This still sounds like an so stacking thing. I do have a sense of group delineations, but I've never been able to successfully ingratiate myself within any group in terms of image or collectivity. I've been on the fringe of pretty much every group I've been in, and to see people defining themselves by the roles they fulfill within the group environment has always rubbed off as disingenuous to me.
    Last edited by Galen; 02-18-2012 at 08:58 PM.
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    It's pretty cool

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I actually like this. There's something about people from the Midwest that I admire, like they have a strong internal locus of control and sense of personal responsibility.

    Edo/Tokugawa Japan has seemed stereotypically Delta to me, with Heisei era verging much more Alpha-ey.


    This still sounds like an so stacking thing. I do have a sense of group delineations, but I've never been able to successfully ingratiate myself within any group in terms of image or collectivity. I've been on the fringe of pretty much every group I've been in, and to see people defining themselves by the roles they fulfill within the group environment has always rubbed off as disingenuous to me.
    Well...no offense dude but...you're gay, and probably have a level of social hesitation that makes it harder to integrate.

    I'm surprised you say this about people defining themselves according to role; Delta Rationals strike me as more prone to this than any other grouping.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    You're going to have sex with him or not, Gilly?
    C'mere, big boy...
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Broader observations:

    Canadian culture seems Alpha-esque.

    Indian culture is Gamma/Delta; mostly just Te/Fi as shit

    Black culture is hugely Aristocratic, although it is trending towards Democracy

    White "culture" seems to be Delta/Gamma, mostly Democratic assumptions but also appeals to the system.

    Japanese culture is Alpha since WWII

    European culture seems Democratic
    war-Germany: Beta to the max
    modern Germany: Alpha/Beta mix (?)

    western Germany stereotype: Gamma
    eastern Germany stereotype: Delta (among eastern Germans)

    Bavaria: Beta
    northern Germany: Delta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    C'mere, big boy...
    Oi, come here thin boy, say ahhh, and let me check your teeth like a real dentist I am.

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    Some hopefully constructive objections to some opinions:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    war-Germany: Beta to the max
    modern Germany: Alpha/Beta mix (?)
    I find modern Germany no that extreme, but still Beta. When you compare it to other countries... I know a German LII guy I worked with, who told me he would like to live in a more open-minded country, he said Finland would do the trick. He has never been there, though, and I don't know exactly why Finland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Hipsters seem mostly Alphas, some Deltas and Betas, rarely Gammas IME
    I think either this is totally wrong or we use a different definitions for hispters. For instance I would agree with you if to you hipster means someone who never takes initiative to promote trends in society, but then joins such things without a clue where they are truly coming from. Otherwise no, it's almost the other way around: Gamma > Beta & Delta > Alpha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Canadian culture seems Alpha-esque.
    I think Canadian society is Fi oriented. Human rights and preaching are prioritary and tries to keep people in line, civilized and politically-correct. Pretty much like Sweden. Now I've been to Sweden and I could say that the Joe next door seems rather Alpha: average people are pretty modest, simple, open and very intelligent - they have awareness about things that in other countries are rather limited to the intellectuals, in my opinion, like detailed understanding of different cultures, politics, environment issues, science. But on a higher level IMO they are forced to support political correctness - you know, multiculturalism, issues about disadvantaged people and discrimination, etc. It does not really look possible to evidentiate oneself and not give a shit about others there, each man is a piece of the system and you can do only what you are allowed to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    European culture seems Democratic
    On the contrary, I think it is Aristocratic. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing, but I'm talking about the European society. Here there are a lot of traditions and rules, some countries are quite nationalistic - Hungary, Italy, Ireland, just to name a few.
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    This thread makes me feel sort of claustrophobic and weirded out because this categorization and the typing of groups/countries/regions/entities seems so limiting and non-productive. I realize that it's just fun and games and I am not asking to stop doing it if you feel so inclined, but I strongly feel that groups do not have types.

    Between the ages of 16-25 (roughly), I frequently hung out at an alternative coffee shop full of leftist activists, punks, old (and new) hippies, stoners, etc. It was this big family of people who were looking for an inclusive place to hang out. Everyone except racists/neo-nazis, etc. were welcome and treated nicely and with respect because the space united everyone. People would play games, pool, cards, drink, talk, organize, mobilize, etc. My point is that I could not for the life of me put this bunch of people or any subgroup thereof into a quadra. I also think that doing so, perpetuates stereotypes (if you fight the establishment you must be beta, blablabla). I mean, I might be a boring delta moralizer now, but when I was 17, I fought the establishment with more conviction than any self-proclaimed "I am so edgy and different, I must be beta" person on here. I wrote poetry, too. Perhaps I am IEI?

    This thread is fine, don't get me wrong. But seriously, the stereotypes are getting old. It's boring and stuck in its ways, it must be delta? Rednecks are delta? Seriously? Sometimes this place feels like the escapist vision of people with extremely boring lives who need an outlet to make themselves believe that since they are a certain type, their life is exciting by default.

    Tbh, it's been pissing me off more and more lately and I think I am just using this thread to vent. Don't mind me.
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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    I think this for some, is a lot about realizing the models inside one's head. The stereotypes exist already, if we want to fight against them, let's make a joke of it. I live to break the stereotype in my life and to seek information that goes against the stereotype.

    If it sounds limiting, you should see the tongue in cheek attitude me and Gilly are probably having as we smirk in front of our computer screens, writing about HOW ALL Xs MUST BE Ys.
    OH AND IF YOU DON'T GET IT YOU CAN'T BE DELTAN AS DELTANS ARE ARISTOCRATIC, HERE HAS A DICHOTOMY IN THE FORM OF A RESTRICTIVE BOX.
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Oi, come here thin boy, say ahhh, and let me check your teeth like a real dentist I am.
    Just don't rub your beer tits on my new shirt.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    This thread makes me feel sort of claustrophobic and weirded out because this categorization and the typing of groups/countries/regions/entities seems so limiting and non-productive. I realize that it's just fun and games and I am not asking to stop doing it if you feel so inclined, but I strongly feel that groups do not have types.

    Between the ages of 16-25 (roughly), I frequently hung out at an alternative coffee shop full of leftist activists, punks, old (and new) hippies, stoners, etc. It was this big family of people who were looking for an inclusive place to hang out. Everyone except racists/neo-nazis, etc. were welcome and treated nicely and with respect because the space united everyone. People would play games, pool, cards, drink, talk, organize, mobilize, etc. My point is that I could not for the life of me put this bunch of people or any subgroup thereof into a quadra. I also think that doing so, perpetuates stereotypes (if you fight the establishment you must be beta, blablabla). I mean, I might be a boring delta moralizer now, but when I was 17, I fought the establishment with more conviction than any self-proclaimed "I am so edgy and different, I must be beta" person on here. I wrote poetry, too. Perhaps I am IEI?

    This thread is fine, don't get me wrong. But seriously, the stereotypes are getting old. It's boring and stuck in its ways, it must be delta? Rednecks are delta? Seriously? Sometimes this place feels like the escapist vision of people with extremely boring lives who need an outlet to make themselves believe that since they are a certain type, their life is exciting by default.

    Tbh, it's been pissing me off more and more lately and I think I am just using this thread to vent. Don't mind me.
    Hey hey hey, you know you are my Kimmy and you don't fall under that level of Delta lameness

    But seriously, quadras are such abstract, multi-faceted and yet coherent concepts that its very easy to use them in generalizing. It seems only fitting, to me, to relate big ideas to big ideas; its one thing to type a person and see what quadra they are, but people are individuals who have idiosyncrasies and quirks and they are never as "pure" of examples. However when you lump people together you can isolate the salient traits easily and see what the real distinguishing commonalities are. In that sense I think its even less "dangerous" to type groups of people than it is to type people, because obviously not all of the people in stated groups are the SAME. It doesn't work as well to call one person an exemplar of a "quadra," first of all because they can only be one type, but also because with a group, variance is taken for granted, assumed entirely due to the size of the sample, whereas with an individual its easier to tale, say, one personality trait or instance of behavior and blow it out of proportion.

    That said, cool it with the indirect pot shots, yo....
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    I think this for some, is a lot about realizing the models inside one's head. The stereotypes exist already, if we want to fight against them, let's make a joke of it. I live to break the stereotype in my life and to seek information that goes against the stereotype.

    If it sounds limiting, you should see the tongue in cheek attitude me and Gilly are probably having as we smirk in front of our computer screens, writing about HOW ALL Xs MUST BE Ys.
    OH AND IF YOU DON'T GET IT YOU CAN'T BE DELTAN AS DELTANS ARE ARISTOCRATIC, HERE HAS A DICHOTOMY IN THE FORM OF A RESTRICTIVE BOX.
    This is really true. The stereotypes already exist; saying them out loud doesn't change that, and if anything it invites discussion that may be a healthy challenge to a stated viewpoint.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Just don't rub your beer tits on my new shirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    This is really true. The stereotypes already exist; saying them out loud doesn't change that, and if anything it invites discussion that may be a healthy challenge to a stated viewpoint.
    Which is why I said the thread is fine. It was more about my reaction to it. I honestly don't believe groups can be typed (I have said this for a long time about typing countries) and I was cranky and tired when I wrote that post, so I apologize for picking on betas. I am just as annoyed with self-proclaimed deltas who think they must be delta because they are so saintly, gammas who think they must be gamma because they are so smart and efficient, and alphas who think they must be alphas because they are so fun to be around.

    I consider myself very fortunate because until my early 20 I went through life without internet and until my early 30s, I had no idea about Socionics. I think I was much less likely to shy away from certain people or groups as I am now and as I see many people here are because they associate them with a certain group. If I had typed my boyfriend SLE when I first met him, I might not even have bothered getting to know him. I can just see people walk through high schools, thinking they shouldn't bother associating with the goth crowd because they must be beta and therefore impossible to get along or the hippie stoners because they must be lame deltas. I honestly believe that part of the reason that BG is the most-beloved forum member is because he might just be the only one who truly does not act upon any of the socionics stereotypes and just appreciates and respects forum members equally regardless of type.

    I agree that there is nothing wrong with verbalizing stereotypes, but only if that doesn't confirm them as "truth." That being said, Germany is not beta and Gilly, I am relieved that you don't think I am lame. <3
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    That being said, Germany is not beta...
    What is Germany in your opinion? (If you have an opinion/want to say it.)
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    What is Germany in your opinion? (If you have an opinion/want to say it.)
    I think it's gamma (ILI) or delta (SLI). The one thing that always strikes me first when I come back to visit is the Fe PoLR. I just can't see beta. If I were to summarize traits, then I would say as a society, it's efficient, non-aggressive, socially conscious, impolite to the point of rude, suspicious, critical, quick-to-complain, leisure-loving, social (much more social than the U.S.).

    What do you think? Note that I am from Hamburg and Fe PoLR is probably more pronounced there since it's reinforced through hanseatische Arroganz and all.

    Now I am homesick...
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    At least I think it's more passive aggressive than openly aggressive...
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    What do you think?
    I'm not sure to be honest. Of course, most people can only evaluate the stereotype, because you only know how the people are if you live there, but there is still truth in it. For instance, what socionics.us sees as the "dominating" IE in the ethnosocionics section is Ti. I think this is a good choice. I guess I'm not even perceive it in the same way as a stranger would, but the people take rules and laws extremely serious and literal. The bureaucracy has much influence and everything is so comlicated if you want to get something done. There are rules for everything because people seem to believe everything turns into chaos if it's not specified which kind of shingles you're allowed to put on your roof.

    Some people might have a good social conscience, but this is still a society which is based on performance. You work to be richer, have a fat car and an own house with garden. German TV often shows low-income and socially weak people for entertainment reasons. The rich are admired (mostly the self-made of course) and money is an integral part of life. (Maybe I'm stating the obvious, meaning it's the same in almost every country. Maybe, I don't know)

    The Ineffable said he knows someone who seems to have a Finland-fetish of some sort. Coincidentally, Finland got Si in the same ethnosocionic article I linked above. Germans have that stereotype of the relaxed northern european people who just enjoy life and don't care too much about achievements in a material sense. I'm not suprised that many people in the country can't identify with that constant striving for more. More exports, more economic growth, more of everything. Take a look in the news, that's what it's all about. That's why I think many Germans either live a life focused on their careers (including family, the kids have to go to the best schools ect.) and have a hard time to relax and other "unproductive" things or, if they don't qualify, settle for constant partying and rather superficial pleasures.

    But it's all a little difficult as so many different people are compressed in so little space.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Humans as a species are principally Beta, going off average typings by this forum.

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    From my POV germany seems to be a very Te-driven culture. South and West more , north and east more . But I'm really no expert.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    BUT HITLER WAS BETA

    THAT MEANS ALL GERMANS ARE BETA

    DURRRR


    <3 Kimmie but see, to me, typing people doesn't really discourage interacting with them; it actually helps, because it gives me a frame of reference for the interaction. I try not to have cut and dry expectations based on Socionics types, but it does help smooth things out in my head when things get rocky, gives me a reason to give someone a second chance to not annoy me/piss me off/get on my bad side because I stop and think "Now is it possible that this is just a misunderstanding?" And a lot of the time it is. Sometimes it not; some people suck and are inconsolable or would rather just move on or whatever. But for me it helps smooth out negative interactions that are often due to pure misunderstanding, rather than force me to judge people. It doesn't justify our "differences" and make us totally separate people, at least in my mind; it's a tool for navigating the invisible boundaries that would otherwise exist and influence interaction without our knowledge.

    When I judge some old dude and think in my head "God what a stupid old Delta faggot," it's not just me judging them because they are a Delta, but more an explication of my frustrations that arises from a combination of someone being both incomprehensible to me (and having a word for it) and ALSO a douche; I meet Deltas that I like every day, I don't just write them all off implicitly. That's just retarded.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by polikujm View Post
    Humans as a species are principally Beta, going by average typings by this forum.
    Mmmm...from a highly abstracted quadra progression standpoint, I'd say we're mostly Se/Ni, compared to other creatures. We're certainly not Deltas.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    I'm not sure to be honest. Of course, most people can only evaluate the stereotype, because you only know how the people are if you live there, but there is still truth in it. For instance, what socionics.us sees as the "dominating" IE in the ethnosocionics section is Ti. I think this is a good choice. I guess I'm not even perceive it in the same way as a stranger would, but the people take rules and laws extremely serious and literal. The bureaucracy has much influence and everything is so comlicated if you want to get something done. There are rules for everything because people seem to believe everything turns into chaos if it's not specified which kind of shingles you're allowed to put on your roof.

    Some people might have a good social conscience, but this is still a society which is based on performance. You work to be richer, have a fat car and an own house with garden. German TV often shows low-income and socially weak people for entertainment reasons. The rich are admired (mostly the self-made of course) and money is an integral part of life. (Maybe I'm stating the obvious, meaning it's the same in almost every country. Maybe, I don't know)

    The Ineffable said he knows someone who seems to have a Finland-fetish of some sort. Coincidentally, Finland got Si in the same ethnosocionic article I linked above. Germans have that stereotype of the relaxed northern european people who just enjoy life and don't care too much about achievements in a material sense. I'm not suprised that many people in the country can't identify with that constant striving for more. More exports, more economic growth, more of everything. Take a look in the news, that's what it's all about. That's why I think many Germans either live a life focused on their careers (including family, the kids have to go to the best schools ect.) and have a hard time to relax and other "unproductive" things or, if they don't qualify, settle for constant partying and rather superficial pleasures.

    But it's all a little difficult as so many different people are compressed in so little space.
    Interestingly, however, bureaucracy in the U.S. can be the same, if not worse, but people don't think anything of it because it's not part of a stereotypical discourse. It's ridiculous how many forms I have had to fill out for each university/position over here. Insurance processes are convoluted and require tons of paperwork, etc. I have come to think differently of German bureaucracy since moving here because I honestly don't think it's necessarily much worse there than here or elsewhere.

    I have to run, so I can't elaborate, but I agree with Fabie that Germany is very Te-driven.

    But we can't type countries anyway.

    Gilly, I believe that YOU are not deterred, but you are you. I still think other people, especially introverts, are likely to use Socionics as an excuse not to engage and interact with groups of people because they have categorized them according to quadras.

    The bottom line is that I don't try to argue for argument's sake, but that I genuinely don't believe a subgroup is inherently beta, delta, etc. At least not in my experience. So !!
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I have to run, so I can't elaborate, but I agree with Fabie that Germany is very Te-driven.

    But we can't type countries anyway.
    You just did and yes we can!

    Russia is beta/gamma
    Finland is delta
    US appears alpha/beta through the media
    Estonia is gamma
    Spain is beta

    Tadaa!
    with little or no knowledge nor research I just spouted plausible theories to be examined if they hold more truth to them!
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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