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Thread: Millenium Trilogy by Stieg Larsson

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default Millenium Trilogy by Stieg Larsson

    I swear I saw a thread on this somewhere but I can't find it. I remember a post by glam about the character's types. I really hope I didn't imagine this.

    Anyway I remember glam suggesting SLI for Salander and IEE for Blomkvist. And now that I have read enough of this and seen all the movies, I must say I really agree with these typings.

    I don't have an opinion on the other characters who I have not focused on enough. In fact I ahem didn't bother reading passages that were not centered on one or the other of the above characters.

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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    nah you didn't imagine it, what you saw was in the Delta movies thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post772747

    i actually just watched the second film again last night. haven't read the books, but i'd like to eventually.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Stieg Larsson: LII

    Lisbeth Salander: LII

    Mikael "Kalle" Blomkvist: IEE

    Erika Berger: LSE (Berger+Blomkvist, activity partners)

    Erika's husband: ILI

    Teleborian: LIE

    Henrik Vanger: LSE

    Zalachenko: SLE

    Niedermann: LSI

    Plague: ILE
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Stieg Larsson: SEE

    Lisbeth Salander: SEE

    Mikael "Kalle" Blomkvist: SEE

    Erika Berger: SEE (Berger+Blomkvist, activity partners)

    Erika's husband: SEE

    Teleborian: SEE

    Henrik Vanger: SEE

    Zalachenko: SEE

    Niedermann: SEE

    Plague: SEE

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    I'd like to read more opinions on Salander's type. I think she has been typed as SLI, although I disagree. She is rather strong-willed (something SLIs are not IMO), and a merry type (she does not talk to people she dislikes; serious types prefer not to break relationships with people they dislike and embrace a more diplomatic approach to life).

    And, of course, her relationship with Kalle Blomkvist...she seems to fall in love with him, although when she realizes Blomkvist and Berger are forever lovers, she feels really upset. Theoretically, losing a dual is more painful than losing another type...

    Any ideas?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Her first guardian, Palmgren, advises her not to react and try to think before acting. If anything, this could be a Socionics benefit relationship: Palmgren (LII) encourages Salander (SLI) to use !
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    I disagree about Salander as LII but I don't know how to explain it. So I can't really say anything. I'm guessing you probably read all the books, and since I have not, I can't go much further until I have. I have various suspicions, but I just can't talk about them because I haven't read the books. And I don't know if I ever will. I can only say lame things like I think the IME Salander is using basically all the time in her work is Te and that I have trouble seeing how she could possibly be Se PoLR. Her relationship with Blomkvist doesn't have to be perfect for them to be duals. My suspicion is that he didn't pick up on enough of her signals (and since she's kind of autistic, well, no big surprise there) and that although she became really devoted to him she realized that he just would never reciprocate her deep feelings and so she tried to write him out of her life (and who knows, it seemed in the Sweedish films he might have suspected which was why he tried to have the relationship talk with her at the end of the first film--and to this all she could say was she really liked having sex with him). He did, however, remain insanely devoted to her as a friend and didn't really need her reciprocation to continue being devoted to her and trying to help her from afar (and he understood she doesn't know how to respond to that). Anyway I don't know how IEE-SLI duality is supposed to work anyway in the romantic sense. A lot of IEEs and ILEs seems kind of flaky to me where (romantic) relationships are concerned, like it can be near impossible to stick with one person (the ILE more easily forgets emotional connections and for the IEE the grass is always greener on the other side of the road). I think it was a bad idea for them to have sex. For Blomkvist it didn't mean anything super special and for Salander maybe she didn't think it did at first and was blinded to her feelings by the physicality of it. But it doesn't matter. Blomkvist is hung up Erika and it seems he kind of always will be, especially considering I think that Erika really likes having her two "husbands" and the relationships aren't complete for her without both of them, and she is able to keep Blomkvist from floating away (I think he knows how important to her he is). And there's a huge age difference between Blomkvist and Salander, which I'm sure factors into everything (being in different places in life). So I think that their working relationship might speak more to their duality. Also, I'd mention that Salander probably doesn't easily fall in love, at all, so that she began feeling that way about Blomkvist could be a little significant.

    Now that I've said all of this, I'm not sure anymore. I might consider LII more if I read the books. Without reading them it's just pointless for me to go on about that. I did feel that possibly some strange Ti statement was being made when she put on the full goth attire at the end of the third movie.

    Oh actually I think that Salander is rather emotionally harsh and unforgiving... she readily seems to place character judgments on people. She holds long grudges. She seeks revenge. I don't think she's emotionally objective at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Stieg Larsson: LII

    Lisbeth Salander: LII

    Mikael "Kalle" Blomkvist: IEE

    Erika Berger: LSE (Berger+Blomkvist, activity partners)

    Erika's husband: ILI

    Teleborian: LIE

    Henrik Vanger: LSE

    Zalachenko: SLE

    Niedermann: LSI

    Plague: ILE
    Most of these typings I agree with, except I type Salander and Plague as SLI, Henrik as LII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Most of these typings I agree with, except I type Salander and Plague as SLI, Henrik as LII.
    Lisbeth Salander, SLI.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Stieg is SLI

    Compare that to John Hughs, LSE


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    Mikael Blomkvist IEE
    Lisbeth Salander SLI
    Erika Berger LSE

    I could see Henrik Vanger as LSE too.

    Any ideas on Martin Vanger's type?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Mikael Blomkvist IEE
    Lisbeth Salander SLI
    Erika Berger LSE

    I could see Henrik Vanger as LSE too.

    Any ideas on Martin Vanger's type?
    LIE?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Oh actually I think that Salander is rather emotionally harsh and unforgiving... she readily seems to place character judgments on people. She holds long grudges. She seeks revenge. I don't think she's emotionally objective at all.
    Yeah. She also doesn't have a problem with being in unfamiliar places, living like a cockroach, and being around and going into dangerous situations.
    She has great situational instincts and she's smart without making it obvious, which could go with introversion.
    I thought ISFj personally, since the way she lives and her revenge thing could go more with an unvalued, demonstrating function. I guess she could be a dark ISFj or maybe that's supposed to be an INTp. It's part of the reason why I consider I might be more ISFj than anything else. Delta seems like a funny suggestion for her.

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    re. Lisbeth. I only watched the movies (both versions) like years ago. I think ISTx.

    Fincher Film Intro -- because it's awesome:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY4f_83t_rw.
    Last edited by Nymeria; 11-17-2015 at 05:21 PM.

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    I've read the books several times, each time with fresh(ish) eyes, I reread them last summer with socionics half-assed in mind. I've read pretty much every possible analyses of the series (specifically Lisbeth Salander) that I could find online.

    Lisbeth Salander - ILI or ESI
    Mikael Blomkvist - IEE
    Erika Berger: LSE
    Nils Bjurman - KYS
    Holger Palmgren - EII, possibly IEI (it's very hard to tell, as he's borderline mute throughout the series)
    Zalachenko: gamma NT
    Dragan Armanskij - LIE, possibly
    Miriam Wu - SEE (duality?)

    (incoming spoilers)

    Now onto Lisbeth Salander. She PERFECTLY exemplifies gamma values. ILI >ESI, even though I feel like Blomkvist supervises her like a mofo. I'm gonna draw comparisons between the books/movies and socionics because I am baffled as to how anyone could type Lisbeth LII/SLI.

    As satirical as Strati's quadra complex articles can be, there is some truth to them, such as:
    For these kind of offense Gamma Quadra feel themselves in full right to spontaneously avenge themselves and make short work out of their abuser. Gamma Quadra types (especially, sensing ones, SEE and ESI) immediately lose control over themselves and will undertake anything to destroy their tormentor both morally and physically. (Such abuse Gamma types won't forgive to anyone!) Gamma Quadra will put to use all of their resources, all the materials at hand (up to sharp or cutting objects), but won't let the offender get away unpunished. The desire to put one's fists to use and beat the tormentor to death (or even tear him apart with bare hands) in such moments is overwhelming, thus the attack may be very brutal and fast.
    TL;DR gamma types don't take shit from anyone, and they will fuck you up for coming at them the wrong way.


    This is EXACTLY how Lisbeth used to handle abusers in the past (that is, before she met Palmgren). When her father, Zalachenko, beat the shit out her mother, Lisbeth threw a molotov cocktail at him. When she signed up for a gym to learn self-defense, she went head-to-head with a guy twice her size and she didn't stop fighting until he nearly beat her to death. She still does this later in life but it's usually reserved for strangers or life-or-death situations. In the case of Bjurman, she had recurring violent thoughts of, "making short work out of [her] abuser." Every, fucking, time. This was her initial reaction to the rape, but what stopped her? Advice that Palmgren gave her years ago: “Impulsive actions led to trouble, and trouble could have unpleasant consequences.” And she repeats this to herself every time she's overcome with the desire for immediate revenge.

    Here are some quotes I've found online that support this theory:
    (the first example reads as if it were taken straight from a gamma quadra description)
    “Much stronger boys in her class soon learned that it could be quite unpleasant to fight with that skinny girl. Unlike other girls in the class, she never backed down, and she would not for a second hesitate to use her fists or any weapon at hand to protect herself. She went around with the attitude that she would rather be beaten to death than take any shit.”

    “To exact revenge for yourself or your friends is not only a right, it's an absolute duty.”

    “Don’t ever fight with Lisbeth Salander. Her attitude towards the rest of the world is that if someone threatens her with a gun, she’ll get a bigger gun.”


    And there's plenty of evidence for Fi HA sprinkled throughout the series. She has this mind-numbing fear of acknowledging her feelings, let alone voicing them, and if you read the books, you'd know JUST how deeply she feels. She has an on-and-off relationship with Blomkvist but, to her own dismay, she never stops loving him. Many of her (impulsive) actions stem from a very troubled past, so although her main motive is to drive out evil, at any and all costs, which would point to gamma SF, she's freakishly adept at anything even remotely related to technology, logic, or what have you. Not that ESIs can't be skilled in this area, and I understand that most of it is due to Lisbeth having a natural penchant for it (her memory and all), I just wouldn't peg an ethical type to be un-redeemable (in society's eyes) in the area of human relationships while being unmistakably talented at more "logic"-oriented pursuits, even if many of her most notable actions were catalyzed by spurts of intense emotion.

    The way that Blomkvist views Lisbeth's vengeful actions seems like a typical delta ethical POV on gamma ethics. After Lisbeth chased down Martin Vanger and killed him, Blomkvist was... not appalled, but taken aback, even though he was the one who was tortured by Martin. He thought it was too much. Blomkvist tried to see it from Martin's perspective, he asked Lisbeth to consider Martin's past, try to understand that he was a victim of his circumstance, and it's what I imagine an IEE/ESI supervision relationship would be like, but I guess it could hold true for any gamma/delta pair.

    Lisbeth and Miriam Wu are duals, if anything. Lisbeth has a semi-solid relationship with Blomkvist by the end of the series, but...

    “His attitude had always been that if a woman clearly indicated that she did not want anything more to do with him, he would go on his way. Not respecting such a message would in his eyes, show a lack of respect for her.”
    which is a fantastic outlook, generally speaking, but their relationship is still way too strained in the beginning to be duality. I think her relationship with Miriam Wu is a much better example of duality. The way that Miriam just accepts the fact that Lisbeth disappears for, like, no fucking reason all the time. She gives Lisbeth her space, doesn't ask questions, doesn't make assumptions, just lets her do her thing and enjoys her company on the off chance she DOES show up. If she wants/needs something from Lisbeth, she just kinda shows up. Lisbeth rarely displays affection, but Miriam knows.

    So yeah, not Delta. not Beta, and definitely not Alpha. Lisbeth is probably ILI, maybe ESI. (there was someone who suggested SEE in the past, on another forum, and I think it's plausible? all that I can say for sure is that Lisbeth belongs to the gamma quadra; not LIE though)
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    ok I KNOW I wrote a long post arguing that Lisbeth Salander is ESI but @Cosmic Teapot what do you think of Lisbeth Salander as SLI-Te?

    ever since you challenged my typing of Katniss Everdeen as ESI - your SLI typing has been floating around in the back of my mind. I went back and re-read the first book of the series (skimmed, is more like it) and I think I see what you mean now. I guess I saw Fi HA in Lisbeth but I don't think I fully considered how Te-seeking might've factored into my ESI typing. I might've been thrown off by the Delta stereotypes + I was young and dumb and 21 (it rhymes ok), but the rationale behind my typings of Lisbeth and Katniss were similar, which is why I'm curious if you'd type Lisbeth similarly. there's just something about the scene where she tosses the leather jacket she bought for Mikael in the trash after she catches him with Erika outside his apartment.
    Last edited by wasp; 09-08-2017 at 06:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    ok I KNOW I wrote a long post arguing that Lisbeth Salander is ESI but @Cosmic Teapot what do you think of Lisbeth Salander as SLI-Te?

    ever since you challenged my typing of Katniss Everdeen as ESI - your SLI typing has been floating around in the back of my mind. I went back and re-read the first book of the series (skimmed, is more like it) and I think I see what you mean now. I guess I saw Fi HA in Lisbeth but I don't think I fully considered how Te-seeking might've factored into my ESI typing. I might've been thrown off by the Delta stereotypes + I was young and dumb and 21 (it rhymes ok), but the rationale behind my typings of Lisbeth and Katniss were similar, which is why I'm curious if you'd type Lisbeth similarly. there's just something about the scene where she tosses the leather jacket she bought for Mikael in the trash after she catches him with Erika outside his apartment.

    Its been ages since I've read the book so I don't really know about her type. Although I find aggressor > pseudo-aggressor>> caregiver more likely
    As for the the Katniss = ESI typing just go ahead and have your own opinions
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