Originally Posted by
tcaudilllg
Well there are these things called information elements, of which there are... sixteen, I guess. And they have relationships to each other in specific patterns and ways. So it seems pretty obvious that anything we can think of can be expressed as these elements or their relationships.
Thanks. I recall you once asserted:
Originally Posted by
tcaudilllg
You can't be a monist and a socionist. It just doesn't work, man.
And when asked as to the reification of EM/IM you stated:
Originally Posted by
tcaudilllg
Objectified forms. This is not a metaphor.
So we can safely class you with those who agree with our argument's Realness.
Also, tcaud, as an aside to help clarify your thoughts, is your working definition of immanence based upon or congruent with the following? "In the context of Kant's theory of knowledge Immanence means to remain in the boundaries of possible experience." Your recent writing suggest the answer is yes but I'd rather hear it from you directly.
Originally Posted by
anndelise
I would say that...
Nature is filled with patterns and prototypes, independent of the human mind to grasp.
And that the patterns and prototypes which the human perceives is but a mere shadow of a shadow, a vastly inferior copy of nature's.
You may place this on the survey wherever you believe it fits.
With the assenters!
Originally Posted by
Nowisthetime
First I read "
Social realism".
There's something really fascinating about this style. There was an art exhibition about it in my town some years ago.
Sehr interessant. Which brings us to...
Originally Posted by
PistolShrimp
I'm not sure I fully understand; is this like Plato's theory of Forms?
...why I paraphrased a paraphrase of Plato to make this thread's central argument: though this forum is brimming with intelligent people, it's also chock-a-block with different kinds of intelligence, as demonstrated, for instance, by Nowisthetime's associative-aesthetic answer. So, anticipating that not everyone is interested in academic philosophy, and wanting the greatest representation of opinions on a general question, I tweaked the phrase as it was received to focus its meaning without the uninitiated having to read a bunch of boring or tricksy crap. But since you spotted the platonism in the woodpile, here's the quote as I received it in its pre-jiggerered state:
Plato ideas in natura velut exemplaria dixit subsistere; cetera his esse similia, ad istarum similitudinem consistencia.
Plato teaches that the Ideas exist in nature, so to speak, as patterns or prototypes, and that the remainder of things only resemble them, and exist as their copies.
- Diogenes Laërtius, Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers
Originally Posted by
PistolShrimp
I disagree because I don't see how an idea could exist without a human mind producing it. I'm sure there are things we can't understand or perceive, but the mind is what pulls the patterns out of the chaos. The concept of patterns is a product of the mind and couldn't exist otherwise.
As nil would say, very well. u r a dissenter and belong with the Nominalists.
I have no idea what I'm saying.
Rest assured that I'm only a half step ahead of you, which is part of why I invoked this convocation.
Originally Posted by
kassie
i wasn't totally sure if i understood the question correctly because i thought wouldn't anyone disagree? but reading tcauds answer i think i did understand it - i think the opposite of what he said, more or less.
ideas are in the mind, obviously.
Obviously you have joined the Nominalists and rejected the Realists.
Originally Posted by
Mountain Dew
I like the statement because it implies there are bigger and better ideas yet to be discovered... it implies there are depths beyond the human mind, which I find exciting, considering the potential. I do not like the statement implying that any idea humans discover, however, is inferior to the 'idea' or principal in nature.
Understood since it limits human potential, but what if we call the Supreme Idea the full-blazin' Glory, Grace, and Spirit of the Creator? Does that manifestation of the ineffable then become potentially effed? I smell blasphemy...
Originally Posted by
labocat
i think if you want to be perfectly puritan in denying* there is anything real about abstract entities, you would have to stop talking about even simple everyday things such as humans, since a person is just an abstract configuration of
type cells of which the
tokens are in constant circulation.
HAAAARDCOOOOOORE
Originally Posted by
labocat
this being said i regard the whole "Ne exists" mantra as more of a linguistic aide than as anything indicative of a deeper philosophical bent. any bickerings as to how expedient the use of these is seems to me to seed division where there needs to be none.
In fact much of this thread's raison d'être stems from how frequently arguments are expediently both made and discarded stating that supervenience of type upon token occurs in a direct and real fashion that goes beyond what is alluded to via rational-linguistic constructions. As originally stated, hypostatization of universals is a fundamental determinant of worldview, though its professed disbelief can conveniently donned as a disguise in the company of inifidels. However, that general comment aside...
Originally Posted by
labocat
to me "Ne exists" means something along the lines of "if you try to conceptualize your experiences using a concept of Ne, you get meaningful results", which incidentally it also means when applied to any other concept. perhaps just not always in quite as roundabout a way (though the extent to which the application is roundabout in cases of everyday usage can easily be underestimated; a human is a very, very complex thing when you try to spell it's identity out).
I'm glad to see you're espousing a more nuanced and self-sufficient view that exists as a synthesis of its extremes rather than dwelling upon either of them. Even within the cruciform binarism of socionics not everything boils down to exclusive answers. Your stated stance here accords with that in recent conversation as well, so I'll assume it's your default position when reading your posts in the future.
no vote; i don't care one way or the other.
So noted.
Originally Posted by
anndelise
I usually include that there are things we think we know, but don't.
But that falls under things we don't know we don't know, right?
That can fall under a special reading of "things that we know we don't know."
Originally Posted by
polikujm
You can never truly know something, you just use your brain and senses to make guesses nevertheless how certain of them you act.
In the year 2000 I will reveal how you helped inspire this thread.
Fine thinkinz, everbody. I await the next wave with mounting glee.