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Thread: The Prettiest Pattern Yet!!

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    Default The Prettiest Pattern Yet!!



    edited to add function definitions
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    cool chart anndelise did you draw it yourself? looks like handwriting
    Entp
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    cool chart anndelise did you draw it yourself? looks like handwriting
    Richard did the graphics part on the computer...took him all flippin evening...the damned perfectionist! He wanted to go ahead and figure out how to do the words and I put my foot down. I had wanted to post this yesterday afternoon instead of this morning, and I was NOT going to wait another ENTIRE day just for something I could write in myself!!!!
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    Default Re: The Prettiest Pattern Yet!!

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    4 Interaction Styles (Taken from http://the16types.info/articles.php?article_id=1 )

    "There are 4 styles of interaction between these functions. Intertype relationships are based on these interaction styles."

    1. Support: Seems as complements between one partner's weak traits and the other partner's strong traits.
    a. Ne and Si
    b. Te and Fi
    c. Ni and Se
    d. Ti and Fe
    2. Inhibition: Premise: One function develops at the expense of the other. At a distance, the bearer of the inhibiting functions may appear attractive since the bearer can easily do what the other perceives as difficult. Working together with differing responsibilities can occur without running into conflicts. However, at closer distances (family) inhibition and condemnation of each other's weak points commonly occur. Attempting to understand the partner's standpoint requires suppressing one's own EGO, long term suppression lowers one's self-esteem.
    a. Ne and Se
    b. Te and Fe
    c. Ni and Si
    d. Ti and Fi
    3. Correction: Seems as a striving to draw one's partner's attentions to amend missed details or trivialities. Often creates unequal positions in the partnership. May work in an educational setting in which the "pupil" has already mastered the necessary general information, and merely needs some correction.
    a. Ne and Ni
    b. Te and Ti
    c. Si and Se
    d. Fi and Fe
    4. Understanding: Identical functions aide mutual understanding. Both partners have similar strengths and weaknesses in approaching problems. Differences in experience levels may aide mutual information exchange and/or feelings of competition.
    a. Identical functions. (ie Ne and Ne, Ni and Ni, Ti and Ti, Fe and Fe)



    J/P interactions

    Communication rhythms may not coincide. Ie, What one makes quickly, the other makes slowly. (Note, I'd love more insight into J/P interaction issues.)
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    Looks great. I need time to understand it first.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Looks great. I need time to understand it first.
    It's really just a different view of Model A, only it puts in all the types in one go.

    Pick a type, any type...let's say..ISFj

    The main portion it's in (top or bottom) would be it's "mental" and the other portion would be it's "vital".

    Your type is on the outside cycle, so I have it shown as going in a clockwise manner (clockwise and counterclockwise don't themselves mean anything, it's just a way of showing the "cycles" a type fits in with and can easily see which types are in cycles that go in the opposing direction) You'll see an arrow leading into the Se, so that means that the ISFj starts with the Fi in the first, Se in the second, etc. As you follow the cycle, you'll see the first 4 of your functions, and then it "repeats" itself on the next portion but showing your last four functions.

    Now you can follow and compare anyone's type using the same method.

    Also, it shows which types are in which quadra, you'll notice that all of the gamma's have -Fi+Se-Te+Ni. This way, you can easily see the similarities amongst the quadra types.

    The dashed lines show the supporting interactions. From this you can see that ISFj, ESFp, ENTj, and INTp all have the potential of supporting eachother's ego functions.

    Using the arrows, you can also discover which type produces which information, and which type accepts which information.

    This ...graph?....also aids in finding with just a glance useful methods of interacting with another type. This is my main goal, actually. I'll get into more details about that at another time.
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    Creepy-pokeball

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    Ann, you a djnni-eous! Bravo. Nice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadae
    Ann, you a djnni-eous! Bravo. Nice
    I didn't create anything...it's just another "view" of the model A thingy.

    A more useful view, in my opinion, but certainly nothing new.
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    Creepy-pokeball

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    Technically you did create something new

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    *bump*

    cuz i refuse to let a spammer screw with my work!
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    It's really great. I remember you've done something similar before, but not in the 3D view, like this one

    Post it again, if you still have it.

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    The reaction to this post seems like having someone post this and having everyone say things like That is so true, Good job, That makes so much sense, etc./other affirmation. The image seems bereft of significance it is a noise (perhaps even a song) but not an utterance. No? Explain.

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    Creepy-pokeball

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    Not everyone thinks in 2-D text. This, to me, is much like looking at something like a soil chart. I can store it for a long, long time in my memory. Whereas text only stays if I actually give it effort (ie. care). This is somewhat similar to sound. I can easily memorize what people say but something like the verbage from a song or movie, rarely gets stored unless it has been repeated to death. It lacks the depth of reality and my concern to actually care unless I truly want to.



    I just had deja vu....

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    My post sounded much more negative than I intended. Let me clarify. I see it as noting something to which one cannot have much of a response like "The sky is blue." I fear I do not understand why this is considered significant. I wish to do so.

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    because she said "the sky is blue" in a language to those that responded can identify with.

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    I do not believe that is it either in whole or in part.

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    Well then, spit it out I'll save the guesses for what Taco Bell really puts in their tacos.

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    sorry for tangential ann

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    The reaction to this post seems like having someone post this and having everyone say things like That is so true, Good job, That makes so much sense, etc./other affirmation. The image seems bereft of significance it is a noise (perhaps even a song) but not an utterance. No? Explain.

    Pedro,

    This noise takes this noise: www.socionics.us/theory/model.shtml (well, the horizontal layout)
    And combines it with this noise: www.socionics.us/theory/quadras.shtml
    As well as this noise: www.socionics.us/relations.shtml
    And this noise: http://the16types.info/articles.php?article_id=1
    And the long/short range symbols that apply to the above,
    While reducing the noises of idiosyncratic terminology,
    As well as reducing the extensive memorizations required to efficiently utilize and/or recreate the information in the above links,
    As well as reducing printing costs.

    This noise also offers a visual for those of us who prefer visuals, as well as a spatial sense for those of us who prefer feeling the "locations" and "interactions" between items.

    This is not an utterance. It is merely a representation of a pattern observed regarding Model A, the quadras, intertype relations, and long/short range functions. Is it a "true" pattern? I cannot say. Whether or not it is a "useful" pattern, is what I am willing to explore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gugu_ baba
    It's really great. I remember you've done something similar before, but not in the 3D view, like this one

    Post it again, if you still have it.
    Those previous attempts were my first steps in attempting to understand how the types relate to each other. How are their functions connected, how do their functions differ, etc. One thing that bugged me about them was not knowing how to put them all together into one coherence.

    I do still have them, but they are obsolete at this point. Perhaps after much more playing, even this one will become obsolete to me.
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    oh. i did not realize the need

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    1. I did not quite understand what you mean by plus and minus?

    2. Ann, I think you did a great job but I woud appreciate it much more if you would use model B as basis and not model A. Is it possible?


    As you know both models are similar in way they use the same basis functions and interactons of functions. However, I believe that Model B brings a holistic sense to the understanding of human psyche and psychic structure. The official socionic theorists emphasize that :

    From the very beginning we need to make a note that Socionics describes only one aspect of relationships - the circulation of informational signals between psychological types (and the resulting interactions). All the rest, including the factors of gender, age, social status - may influence them and even distort them, but even under such distorting circumstances one can observe that the same information (or action) is perceived by different people in different ways.

    I noticed that people on the forum as well as some thorists like Rick, Sergei are very comfotable to use the word psyche without reference to the actuall concept which is profoundly spiritual. It seems to me that they have adopted the word without much understanding of its actuall meaning. Their understanding is reduced to interactions between the types mainly. Personality development in socionincs is in the imbrion form - Prokofieve writes about personality development using the model A: www.socionics.ru
    She uses real life examples but in my opinion has not always has clear understanding of the blocks - how they express themselves in real life. For example, in her recent articles about personality development she explains block ID as very much adult block and describels it as follows
    (translated by altavista, but bolding is mine):


    Block ID answers for the relations with personal chaos. What this for the relations? There are people, xwho in everything ideal order, house surgical cleanliness, but valuable life do not have. Here it is possible to assume that in the head in such people order, and here chaos they excessively are frightened, did not know how to establish with it proper relations. There are other people, in which everywhere and in everything complete confusion, not only in the things, but also in the matters, they do not carry out their promises, this word for them - empty sound. In this case they feel itself very well. It is possible to say that such people be friends with chaos, but they disregard order, such people are called dishonorable. Is there in the relations with chaos the golden mean? To me it seems that it found those people, which know how and without looking to find necessary record in the pile of their papers (although other this pile will seem by disorder), and they do not at the same time make possible for chaos to absorb its matters, its soul. There is a concept of the moral and physical cleanliness, which does not reach the "surgical" cleanliness, but which makes possible for man to remain man in the most difficult situations and the circumstances, to be held with the merit (not for others - for itself), to worry about the close ones, however heavy it was, to support physical form in chaos, in the urban confusion, in the time-trouble, infections, poor ecology. This is a guarantee of its own quality of life "when nowhere it harvests". · in connection with this it seems curious still and this is what: in Russia they did not in vain since ancient times entrust to the nondrinker: the drunk person is in a certain chaotic state, there is no order in the thoughts clearly, and the attitudes of this person with chaos are manifested entirely, any dishonorableness becomes visible. If sober person can hide his relations with chaos, covering by their relations with the order, then it does not remain in the drunk of this possibility. The skill to make business, to be oriented in the elemental nature of the market can be also carried to the relations with chaos, although the relations with the order (with the law, for example) for the normal conducting of business are necessary. What it is necessary to make in order to establish worthy relations with personal chaos? Answer is simple to the banality: even if it collapses peace and soil departs from under the feet, it is necessary to continue to make the necessary matters, to wash, to shave, to feed family, to erase noses, to rub dust... Yes that 4 you I do tell? You and same this know not worse me. Functions ID that are good, that they do not say, but they make.

    The model A will never give you the hollistic way because they miss the point/ meaning by a wrong order of the model A. They will speak truth but only to a certain degree and will never be able to make a full sense of the theory or to see the greater potential of it. I have started from reodering and reference to a natural world and anciant wisdom. I do not say that I created something new out of something which was not there. In the same way like Ann I have rearranged the existing knowldege by giving sense to it.

    I looked at what Rick said about quadras. Again, in my view he did something right and something wrong - in my opinion. He said that the order of elements within the quadras is not important:

    In the chart below, the order of elements is not significant. Note that all adjacent quadras share two dominant elements, while opposing quadras (1 and 3; 2 and 4) share no dominant elements

    I would argue that the order is very important. Ric or they- theorists say it because they simply can not make sense of this order yet. And they will not until they will start to look into psychdynamics. It is a casuality arguement. Nothing comes from nothing and somthing comes from something.
    Why do we find the order of the functions for the type so important as well as for interactions between types but the order for the quadras are as not important? Hello???? Where is logic????

    This shows that socionic thoery is flawed but putting to mush attention to the form, logical representation of info detached from reality in meaning.

    And because theorists in socionics continue to hold on the flawed theory whatever they produce will miss the touch with reality and ....human psyche!
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    1. I did not quite understand what you mean by plus and minus?

    2. Ann, I think you did a great job but I woud appreciate it much more if you would use model B as basis and not model A. Is it possible?
    1. The plus and minus signs refer to the short range/long range of the functions, as in this site: http://www.the16types.info/beta1-ISFJ.php (I'd like to note though, that there is a typo error in that Ni for the ISFJ is +, not -.)
    An example of the Fi short range(+Fi) and Fi long range (-Fi):
    Quote Originally Posted by example
    Jung's function: Introverted Feeling

    Socionics function: white ethics - relation - relational ethics
    subjective emotional relationships between objects - attraction vs. repulsion, like vs. dislike, need of each other, love, friendship, antipathy, ethical norms, morals, qualitative properties, subjective judgments

    Positive(short range):
    Good relations — love, friendship, sympathy, an attraction, heat of attitudes, the sociability, a close psychological distance, kindly, pity;

    Negative (long range):
    Bad attitudes — hatred, enmity, antipathy, pushing away, estrangement, the unsociability, a far psychological distance, angrily, ruthlessness.
    I will admit, right now, that I haven't a clue how they got the short/long range thing, how accurate it is, nor how useful it is. As I told Pedro, this picture/pattern is not a statement. It is just combining various infos that related to such things as the model A, quadras, and intertype relations. This picture is just a useful reference for some of us. Others may find it useless.


    2. Regarding Model B, the only reference I have to it is your thread on it. And, to be honest, I had such a difficult time understanding that thread that I stopped following it after the first two pages.
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    Ok, I will make a simple version soon.

    I asked Rick to attend to this thread because i think it is immportant to work out the order of the functions in the interrelationships between quadras. AS I told earlies i have got my concept of this interaction and order. Socionincs at the moment has got nor order as far as i understood in Rick's article about quadras there is no explanation as such. It looks to me that he simply associated the function with already existing info. May be I am wrong.

    I think Ann made a step further in this direction which is actually in some way is similar to what I have discovered for myself. It would be nice if ann could write similar functions for each quadra stating the + an -.

    The next important step will be to find info where + and - comes from.
    I think I have got some info about it , I need to look into it properly.

    I think it is very important to understand this if we want to understand relationship between quadras and order of the functions in eaxh quadra.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Default Re: The Prettiest Pattern Yet!!

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise


    edited to add function definitions

    edited to add function definitions
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    Thanks Ann, for adding the names of the function but I do not understand this abbreviations and probably there are some others on the forum who would like to make a better sense and do not understand either. It would be very nice if you you could clarify it further.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Thanks Ann, for adding the names of the function but I do not understand this abbreviations and probably there are some others on the forum who would like to make a better sense and do not understand either. It would be very nice if you you could clarify it further.
    Function Definitions come from this site: www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml

    Basically, there were three sets of two dichotomies which were used to define the functions:

    I = internal qualities
    E = external qualities

    O = objects: "Things that can be observed, studied, and discussed apart from the subject/observer."
    F = fields: "Things that are perceived through the subject/observer by means of feelings and cannot be studied apart from the subject/observer."

    S = statics: "rest"
    D = dynamics: "motion"

    ---

    I am sure that you would like further discriptive information.

    Right now, I am just working to solve a problem which socionics can answer for me. However, first I needed to ensure a much clearer understanding of just what socionics offers. As I told Pedro, this picture is just an arrangement of most of the socionics info which is thus far being offered on three (now two) socionics websites.

    This picture is currently my "map" of socionics. As I work towards solving said problem, I notice which info I need which seems to be missing from the overall picture. It turns out, that the best way for me, personally, to understand something, is for me to attempt to reconstruct a picture of it. That is all that I am doing at this time.
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    I wonder why socionists put Te as dynamic. I thought they define dynamics by the presence of Intuition in Ego + Superego block. Anyway, i need to look at this website you gave, it did not open for some reason.
    School of Associative socionics: http://socionics4you.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I wonder why socionists put Te as dynamic. I thought they define dynamics by the presence of Intuition in Ego + Superego block. Anyway, i need to look at this website you gave, it did not open for some reason.
    My bad. it is www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml

    (I had used /shtml instead of .shtml)
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    Default Re: The Prettiest Pattern Yet!!

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    The following is the function premises and basic descriptions using the I/E O/F S/D code:

    Premise: reality consists of

    Internal qualities:
    External qualities:

    Objects: Things that can be observed, studied, and discussed apart from the subject (observer).
    Fields: Things that are perceived through the subject by means of feelings and cannot be studied apart from the subject (observer).

    Statics: rest
    Dynamics: motion

    ***
    Combining each of the "facets of reality" into sets of one from each group yields 8 information elements:

    Four perceptual elements of bodies (objects):
    ---
    IOS - internal object statics - internal qualities of objects at rest
    ○ Perceives information about objects' inner content, structure, substance, physical/mental abilities, talents, values, goals/purposes, underlying phenomena, inherent possibilities, and potential energy (the inherent capacity for coming into being <http://www.onelook.com/?w=potential&ls=a>).
    ---
    EOS - external object statics - external qualities of objects at rest
    ○ Perceives information about objects' traits, form, shape, appearance, position, strength, power, physical energy, organization/mobilization, and readiness.
    ---
    EOD - external object dynamics - external qualities of objects in motion
    ○ Perceives information about objects' movements in space, activity, behavior, events (what, how, where), algorithms.
    ---
    IOD - internal object dynamics - internal qualities of objects in motion
    ○ Perceives information about objects' internal processes, internal changes, mood, emotional activity, arousability, excitation, and subduedness.
    (Note: Emotions or display of emotions is merely a form of releasing internal excitation/agitation. For example, anger is a way of reducing overexcitement by emotionally suppressing and depleting another, at lowering their activity level, or at strictly channeling their activity.)
    ---


    Four perceptual elements of relations (observer's relation to objects):
    ---
    IFD - internal field dynamics - internal qualities of observer's relations to objects in motion
    ○ Perceives information about when things might happen, patterns of events, abstract descriptions of processes
    ---
    EFD - external field dynamics - external qualities of observer's relations to objects in motion
    ○ Perceives information about physical experiences, sensations, reflections of events on one's inner state; (Note: These people are able to distinguish previously experienced aesthetic sensations from new ones and are able to "collect" and remember them.)
    ---
    EFS - external field statics - external qualities of observer's relations to objects at rest
    ○ Perceives information about object's position in space, comparisons of quantifiable properties (ie distance, weight, volume, worth, strength, quality, etc.), systems of rules, hierarchies, correlations/ proportions, balance/imbalance, advantages of one object over another object.
    ---
    IFS - internal field statics - internal qualities of observer's relations to objects at rest
    ○ Perceives information about objects' attraction/repulsion, like/dislike, need/antipathy.
    ---

    ( www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml )
    ( http://socionics.us/works/socion2.shtml )
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    Thanks to Ann for her work. She hasd put a lot of effort to explain and describe things. I think when people do something like Ann or subtype theory or etc. we need to acknowldege the effort because although they it is fun for them they do it also for everybody on the forum. In some ways whatever Rick or other people do - we should respect the effort.

    I need time to diagest you model, Ann. I have looked at the Rick's description of dynamic and static functions. I do not understand how the knowldege has been inferred. While I see a certain sense in what Rick is saying I can not accept it at this moment until i read What Aushra said about elements and untill i make my mind up.

    I wonder if people on the forum do agree with the article on the Rick's site and if they perceive the suggested association of functions with dynamics and statics as true? I also wuold be interested in what Rocky thinks about it because i noticed he interests to this dichotomy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    Thanks to Ann for her work. She hasd put a lot of effort to explain and describe things. I think when people do something like Ann or subtype theory or etc. we need to acknowldege the effort because although they it is fun for them they do it also for everybody on the forum. In some ways whatever Rick or other people do - we should respect the effort.

    I need time to diagest you model, Ann. I have looked at the Rick's description of dynamic and static functions. I do not understand how the knowldege has been inferred. While I see a certain sense in what Rick is saying I can not accept it at this moment until i read What Aushra said about elements and untill i make my mind up.

    I wonder if people on the forum do agree with the article on the Rick's site and if they perceive the suggested association of functions with dynamics and statics as true? I also wuold be interested in what Rocky thinks about it because i noticed he interests to this dichotomy.
    I feel compelled to point out (in case anyone misunderstood) that the functions descriptions using I/E O/F S/D are basic versions of what was on Rick's site, of which I had provided links to.

    Olga, thus far you have been the only one who has shown a real interest in this, and so, as I go through the process I'm going through, I will utilize not only enfp (my type) as an example, I will also use isfj as an example.

    I recognize now, that I will most likely not go quite in the direction you would like, nor maybe as fast as you would like, however, my hope is that perhaps something of this can be of help to yourself, or even better, some knowledge/understanding which you share with me may aide my own understandings of socionics. (Although, please take into consideration that I am only writing my own personal thoughts and not representing socionics nor "truth".)
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    Model A uses the following 6 elements, which when combined give the 8 "positions".
    The 6 elements are:

    Accepting: Ability to reflect or "photograph" and reproduce information of a certain kind.
    Producing: Ability to produce new things of a certain kind based on information from the preceding accepting function.
    ---

    Strong: Individual has a confident command and large amount of information of a certain kind and can forcefully influence other people and his surroundings in a certain way.
    Weak: Individual has a weak command and insufficient amount of information of a certain kind and is subject to others' influence in this area.
    ---

    Mental: Individual analyzes a certain aspect of reality consciously and strives to verbalize it.
    Vital: Individual studies a certain aspect of reality subconsciously - subjectively or "through oneself" through hands-on contact.

    ( www.socionics.us/theory/model.shtml )
    These 6 elements are shown in the "Prettiest Picture Yet" in the following ways:

    The accepting functions contain either all "rational" or all "irrational" elements; producing functions contain the remainder.
    "Rational": Te, Fe, Ti, Fi
    "Irrational": Ne, Se, Ni, Si

    Accepting functions are shown by the starting of an arrow's line.
    Producing functions are shown by the arrow's point.
    In essence, if you start at a function, and follow the arrow from it's beginning to it's point, you are traveling the Type's path of accepting/producing functions.
    ---

    Strong functions are the four functions within one's quadra.
    Weak functions are the four functions not within one's quadra.

    I found it interesting that MBTI's function path follows the path of Model A's "strong functions" to Model A's "weak functions". Many people, even socionic enthusiasts have described developing or using their 4 strong functions as their primary functions. For example, A few ENFps here have described following a functional development path of Ne->Fi->Te->Si. An ISFjs most notable functional development path would be Fi->Se->Ni->Te. This gives the impression that MBTI had a sense of the benefits of quadras, even if not explicitly containing the concept of quadras.
    ---

    The mental and vital tracks consist of either all static (object at rest) or all dynamic (object in motion) elements per track:
    Static elements: Ne, Se, Ti, Fi
    Dynamic elements: Te, Fe, Ni, Si

    In the pattern picture, all of one's mental functions are on the same primary circle as their type. For example, the ENFp and ISFj share the same mental circle. The ISTp and ENTj share the same mental circle…which happens to be the ENFp's and ISFj's vital circle.
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    Default Re: The Prettiest Pattern Yet!!

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I am considering leaving the forums for a bit, so if there are any questions anyone has regarding the model above, ask now or forever hold your peace. :wink:

    Meanwhile, I thought I would point out the supervisor and beneficiary cycles for those who hadn't found it in the picture yet.

    Supervisor Cycle:
    Each of the supervisor cycles are shown in this picture. Just follow the arrows around one of the circles. Basically it goes something like,
    Type 1 perceives info and then produces info which
    Type 2 perceives who then produces info which
    Type 3 perceives who then produces info which
    Type 4 perceives who then produces info which
    Type 1 perceives

    ENFp>ISFj>ESTp>INTj>ENFp
    INFj>ENTp>ISTj>ESFp>INFj
    INFp>ESFj>ISTp>ENTj>INFp
    ENFj>INTp>ESTj>ISFp>ENFj

    ***

    Beneficiary Cycle:
    Each of the beneficiary cycles are shown in this picture. Basically it goes something like, Type 1 perceives info who then produces info which compliments the info which
    Type 2 perceives who then produces info which compliments the info which
    Type 3 perceives who then produces info which compliments the info which
    Type 4 perceives who then produces info which compliments the info which
    Type 1 perceives.

    ENFp}ENTj}ESTp}ESFj}ENFp
    ISFj}INFp}INTj}ISTp}ISFj
    INFj}ISFp}ISTj}INTp}INFj
    ENTp}ENFj}ESFp}ESTj}ENTp
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    Hello! I was away for a while and got a message from Olga. Let me know if there were other questions in here for me besides this one below:
    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I looked at what Rick said about quadras. Again, in my view he did something right and something wrong - in my opinion. He said that the order of elements within the quadras is not important:

    In the chart below, the order of elements is not significant. Note that all adjacent quadras share two dominant elements, while opposing quadras (1 and 3; 2 and 4) share no dominant elements

    I would argue that the order is very important. Ric or they- theorists say it because they simply can not make sense of this order yet. And they will not until they will start to look into psychdynamics. It is a casuality arguement. Nothing comes from nothing and somthing comes from something.
    Why do we find the order of the functions for the type so important as well as for interactions between types but the order for the quadras are as not important? Hello???? Where is logic????

    This shows that socionic thoery is flawed but putting to mush attention to the form, logical representation of info detached from reality in meaning.

    And because theorists in socionics continue to hold on the flawed theory whatever they produce will miss the touch with reality and ....human psyche!
    In the quote from http://www.socionics.us/theory/quadras.shtml regarding "the order of the elements not being important," this is referring to the order the four dominant elements of each quadra are listed in the chart directly under this statement. These elements correspond to the leading functions of each four types of the quadra, so it doesn't matter which order you list them in, since there is no "leading type" in each quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olga
    I asked Rick to attend to this thread because i think it is immportant to work out the order of the functions in the interrelationships between quadras. AS I told earlies i have got my concept of this interaction and order. Socionincs at the moment has got nor order as far as i understood in Rick's article about quadras there is no explanation as such. It looks to me that he simply associated the function with already existing info. May be I am wrong.
    ...
    I think it is very important to understand this if we want to understand relationship between quadras and order of the functions in eaxh quadra.
    I don't quite understand the question here or what you are referring to by the "order of the functions."

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    Rick, isn't there some kind of communication cycle (or something like that) within each quadra? A couple of people have told me that there is one, but couldn't find the references for it.
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    Default Quadra's leading type?

    I would love to hear what Rmcnew - our Quadra-genious thinks about the interrelationship betwen quadras? It would be good to have a link to the best available description of quadras. By the way i think we can call Ann - model-genious! It is really not an accident that they both are ENFPs.
    What name would you suggest for Rick :wink: ?

    If there is certain interrelationship - there should be interaction of something. If there is an interaction - this should be related to functions. I believe that there is a leading type in each quadra. I have coded it in the model B. When the time will come I will reveal the code.

    AS far as I understood in one of my books the interrealtionship between quadras is related to the rings of social order (not sure if my translation is exact into English). This is related who is Supervisor for whom. My understanding of interacton is slightly different. But whenever you think about the interaction - you need to put some sense to this interaction.
    Just think about two types in quadra as one because they so similar as mirrors. At the end you will have two different mirrors which will make together an upper or a lower part (wheel) of the type - quadra's leading type. Any suggestions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Rick, isn't there some kind of communication cycle (or something like that) within each quadra? A couple of people have told me that there is one, but couldn't find the references for it.
    If there is, it only belongs to the realm of speculation and hasn't been "confirmed" to the point of general acceptance. For example, the person I studied socionics with told me that in each quadra, the intuitive extravert is the "programmer" and the one who begins things, the sensing extravert is the leader and organizer, the intuitive introvert is the revisor or corrector, and the sensing introvert is the finisher. Gulenko has made similar divisions. In reality, however, this is not really the case. Any type can end up being the leader if he or she is most competent and confident in the area that is being worked on. So this "elegant" division of roles is just logical ( ) speculation.

    I think the same is true of hypotheses about communication cycles within the quadras. If the "communication cycles" in question are too specific, then they are almost certainly not true, since specific interaction depends not on functions but on people's knowledge and experience at the given moment. There may be more general communication patterns, however. For example, after people from a quadra know each other well, it tends to break off into two dual pairs for closer interaction. Then, when you need to make something happen in the group, you talk to your activator, but when you need to make an idea understood, you talk to your mirror.

    That's about all I can say based on my actual observations.

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    Regarding "order of functions" within the quadra, as far as I am aware, there is an order of interaction only with asymmetric relations, i.e. supervision and request. Within a quadra all relations are symmetric, so there is no inherent preeminence of information elements built into the socionics model. Again, in my opinion, who is the leader depends on the nature of the task at hand. The more a certain information element is demanded for the task, the greater the likelihood the type with that leading element will become the leader.

    Between quadras there is a sort of "order" of information flow. Each type has certain relations with other quadras depending on the presence of asymmetric relations between his type and the types of that quadra. For example, Alpha is IEE's supervisor quadra, and Gamma is his supervisee. But LSE's supervisor quadra is Gamma, and Alpha is his supervisee (IEE and LSE are in different "rings of social request").

    Augusta made a bigger deal out of these rings than is currently accepted in socionics. After her, a few socionists (Gulenko and others) have said that there is a big difference between "left ring" types and "right ring" types. Others remain skeptical and don't use this dichotomy much.

    Next, there is the theory of "succession of the quadras," formulated by Bukalov and Gulenko in the early 90s, partly as a response to the events in the post Soviet Union. The idea being that a stable Alpha Quadra system is vulnerable to Beta invasion, and so on with the other quadras till you get back to the Alpha Quadra.

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