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Thread: 666 the number of God

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    Default 666 the number of God

    Not the true God, but the only God I have ever worshipped. I can die for all I care. But I can't turn my back on everyone who was born into this hell, including myself. We are all psychologically raped from birth. Every one of you is terribly flawed and I love that about all of you. All of us worship Satan, this isn't a pledge of servitude this is just an acknowledgment of the reality.
    Last edited by rat1; 12-11-2011 at 05:40 PM.

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    How do you embrace death?

    My friend chants every morning that he's already dead.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    meh changing my mind about things back and fourth, but I am settling on this
    Last edited by rat1; 12-11-2011 at 05:41 PM.

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    immortality is a given.

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    ok but what right do we have to claim holiness after being as evil as we are? At least we can all come out and admit we worship satan, and that although he isnt the true God we know who we are and we aren't making any qualms about it. That way we aren't causing any further damage.
    Last edited by rat1; 12-12-2011 at 05:07 PM.

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    0 is the number of God.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Only by all of us acknowledging we are satanic can we, by a miracle of christ, be forgiven and even begin to know the one true God. God is not 0, either. God tells what he is in the bible, alpha & omega, the beginning, what is here, and what is coming. What I need to do is found a church of satanic confessions, or maybe write a bible of satanic confessions which people can add to and we can pass around and have everyone read it after we edit it properly, then they can add to it, etc.
    Last edited by rat1; 12-11-2011 at 07:10 PM.

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    infinity exists in zero
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    imo, infinity/numbers represents any kind of form, while zero represents space.

    But then I begin to wonder if space even exists on an atomic level.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    true infinity is neither zero nor + or - infinite relative to zero, both together make up the truly infinite.. speaking only in numbers.

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    I'm depressed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    How do you embrace death?
    This question is fairly simple and quite relevant. Can you answer it?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    starfall, infinity does not "exist within" anything; that is absurd. it is not a positive substance. the second you refer to zero, you commit an act of self-negation; this reveals the nature of space.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Forget about the Bible and God and Satan. The existence or non-existence of any number of god(s) or any other supernatural entities is wholly irrelevant to the physical plane of existence.
    Last edited by nil; 12-12-2011 at 04:50 PM.

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    Whether you transcend to immortality or you simply die is determined by what you do here. But here is something about hell; that it is just a place of death, not eternal life in punishment. The mistranslation of what hell is has twisted the message about eternal life and how to achieve it.
    http://www.worldtocome.org/player.ht...!Item=558768,1

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    I am well aware what hell means within the confines of the bible. Way back when I was a Christian I was a universalist. It is the only position that made sense.

    As to whether I live in immortality or I just die, it doesn't matter to me. Give me eternal death.

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    You already believe.. all you have to do is start connecting with people, like you long to do. There are only 2 main commandments. 1.. embrace God, 2.. embrace others. Vuala, eternal life. Why won't you grab what it is you want?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratPULSE View Post
    Not the true God, but the only God I have ever worshipped. I can die for all I care. But I can't turn my back on everyone who was born into this hell, including myself. We are all psychologically raped from birth. Every one of you is terribly flawed and I love that about all of you. All of us worship Satan, this isn't a pledge of servitude this is just an acknowledgment of the reality.
    Stay metal, dude. \m/

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    666 isnt the number of Satan.

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    Merry Christmas, @Typhon

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    Too hairy.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    You would refuse that, Aqua?

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    I don't like blonds.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    I don't like blonds.
    Ah, now I know why you want out of Finland!

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratPULSE View Post
    Not the true God, but the only God I have ever worshipped. I can die for all I care. But I can't turn my back on everyone who was born into this hell, including myself. We are all psychologically raped from birth. Every one of you is terribly flawed and I love that about all of you. All of us worship Satan, this isn't a pledge of servitude this is just an acknowledgment of the reality.
    You have issues. And no, 666 isn't the # for Satan. That's what the modern world believes, but if you're Biblically accurate, it's a different #.

    But I wish you the best of luck, and I will pray for you.

    Merry Christmas everyone. Let's celebrate Jesus' birth.

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    Sniffing petrol again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain LSE View Post
    You have issues. And no, 666 isn't the # for Satan. That's what the modern world believes, but if you're Biblically accurate, it's a different #.

    But I wish you the best of luck, and I will pray for you.

    Merry Christmas everyone. Let's celebrate Jesus' birth.
    I think rat was actually onto something very true and important. The religious aspect of it wasn't really necessary, but it was a way that many of us could relate to, and now I can't think in terms of anything but religion. Actually, I think rat's OP made me realize something, but something very different from what I think he is saying...

    God in the traditional sense is omniscient. So even knowing everything that would happen; that is, Satan would rebel against God and then later corrupt man and then man would be sentenced to live in hell for a certain amount of time on earth in pain and depression and strife and constant competition of everything against everything, and then way later Jesus would come (apparently he is actually God himself) and die so that the 'sins' of all men would be healed, but not all men so much as those who believe in Jesus and God in this lifetime. They go to heaven/New Jerusalem while everyone else (probably over 90% of the human population that has ever lived) is tortured and burned forever in hell and a literal lake of fire. And that's their just punishment for their sins. Even if Hitler himself had repented of his crimes against humanity and believed in god and Jesus he would be counted among the ranks who will rule with Christ, while people such as Ghandi will just burn forever. And this God actually expects us to believe in all of this through an ancient text written by superstitious people groups from the bronze age. So even knowing all of this, God would willingly create everything. What a 'plan'.

    Fuck that guy. I can't believe people actually believe this shit.

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    I liked Nil's post more than that like button would could have shown.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    I think rat was actually onto something very true and important. The religious aspect of it wasn't really necessary, but it was a way that many of us could relate to, and now I can't think in terms of anything but religion. Actually, I think rat's OP made me realize something, but something very different from what I think he is saying...

    God in the traditional sense is omniscient. So even knowing everything that would happen; that is, Satan would rebel against God and then later corrupt man and then man would be sentenced to live in hell for a certain amount of time on earth in pain and depression and strife and constant competition of everything against everything, and then way later Jesus would come (apparently he is actually God himself) and die so that the 'sins' of all men would be healed, but not all men so much as those who believe in Jesus and God in this lifetime. They go to heaven/New Jerusalem while everyone else (probably over 90% of the human population that has ever lived) is tortured and burned forever in hell and a literal lake of fire. And that's their just punishment for their sins. Even if Hitler himself had repented of his crimes against humanity and believed in god and Jesus he would be counted among the ranks who will rule with Christ, while people such as Ghandi will just burn forever. And this God actually expects us to believe in all of this through an ancient text written by superstitious people groups from the bronze age. So even knowing all of this, God would willingly create everything. What a 'plan'.

    Fuck that guy. I can't believe people actually believe this shit.
    You're allowed to believe whatever you want, but don't put down those who do.

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    Nil, I think you explained yourself well here. Your conclusion makes perfect sense in light of what you shared. I have a different conclusion but its due to theological differences concerning some of what you shared.

    So I will share those differences for you or for anyone else who may be interested..

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by nil View Post
    I think rat was actually onto something very true and important....

    God in the traditional sense is omniscient.
    yes but that's not all. I beleive the two most important traits of God are Love and Mercy. We know these are important because Jesus lived these traits so thoroughly in his life on earth. Jesus said if we have seen Him we have seen God. So, God is Love and Mercy, and everything He does reflects this.

    He made us and He made the universe out of love for us.

    And He gave us the awesome gift of free will.

    So even knowing everything that would happen; that is, Satan would rebel against God and then later corrupt man and then man would be sentenced to live in hell for a certain amount of time on earth in pain and depression and strife and constant competition of everything against everything,
    Yes, man is corrupted but the Good News or Gospel is that Jesus came. And that now there is Peace on Earth to Men of Good Will.

    So if our will is evil we can choose evil. We won't have the peace of God, but we have our choice. Its an awesome gift, choice.

    Because of Jesus and His Presence in the world we have the power to do good and be at peace in spite of living in a corrupted world. So earth does not have to be pain and strife. Even if circumstances seem like pain and strife is the only thing for us -- we still have the witness of those stories of those starving and beaten in concentrations camps whose spirits soured in spite of circumstances.

    and then way later Jesus would come (apparently he is actually God himself) and die so that the 'sins' of all men would be healed, but not all men so much as those who believe in Jesus and God in this lifetime.They go to heaven/New Jerusalem while everyone else (probably over 90% of the human population that has ever lived) is tortured and burned forever in hell and a literal lake of fire. And that's their just punishment for their sins. Even if Hitler himself had repented of his crimes against humanity and believed in god and Jesus he would be counted among the ranks who will rule with Christ, while people such as Ghandi will just burn forever.
    Yes, He told us that He is God Himself. Its a huge claim, but He sure did not come off as a liar... Yes, it is clear, He died for our sins, to pay the price. And in doing so He gave an example of true love: to love is to lay down one's life for the beloved.

    Yes, we are rewarded for our faith in Him, and He calls us to believe. But you cannot leave out the fact that He is Love and Mercy. For some it is naturally (or circumstantially) hard to have faith. Which must be one reason he tells us we only need a TINY bit, the size of a mustard seed compared to our whole body! But a Merciful God would certainly have to account for the fact that it is harder for some to believe than others.

    So does Love and Mercy give the hard-core Lifetime Atheist one last chance to believe right before he dies? Say, perhaps as he is falling from a burning building, or in the unconscious moments before he dies? I believe in that, and that's one of the reasons the Catholic Church does not believe in Euthanasia - because every moment of life is precious, and those last very private live moments between you and God can be quite crucial.

    But do we get a chance to beleive after we die? For example, what about the atheist who dies suddenly, in a car crash, for example, maybe while muttering about "those stupid Christians"? I have always felt that God must extend them Mercy, too, after they die, since they didn't get a chance before. Recently I found words of a mystic that support that belief I have always had. I will follow with a link. Basically, it confirms that God gives us yet another chance to believe Him even after we die and see him!

    Yet, even face-to-face with the God of love and light, some will reject Him. [not so unlike Judas, face-to-face and deeply loved by the God-Man, chose to reject him]. More than one reliable, godly, Sainted Mystic has said that everyone in hell is there because they WANT to be there. Its what they CHOOSE. Yes, they know it is eternal suffering but they choose it because they DO NOT WANT and love and mercy, and since that's what God is they want to assign themselves hell for eternity. Love and mercy seems, to them, a worse hell.

    So why should anyone bother to try to be good when at the last minute - even after we die - we have the chance to say, "Yes. I believe!" and get to heaven? Because what we do on earth makes us who we are. If we choose evil again and again on earth, we risk becoming evil. The more steeped in sin we become the more it gets a hold on us and, eventually, we realize we love sin more than anything else. Man cannot have two masters, God and Mammon... we choose one.

    If we die having given our life completely over to evil as Hitler did, we risk on that day of seeing God and choosing now to say "NO thank you!" to Love and Mercy, because we have grown to hate SO MUCH that which is opposite of what we have chosen all our lives to embrace. And according to some Mystics, hell is a choice that all who actually end up there have chosen. Yes, they choose the excruciating eternal torture, physical and spiritual, of hell.

    Yes, the free will God gives us is an awesome power.

    Every time we choose sin and wrong, we go further down this road. But the good news is for those of us with good will. If we will the good at all, we can call on Jesus and He will pull us out of the traps and snares the evil one has set for us, that we are ensnared in because of our own conscious choices do be and do evil. Jesus will set us free, if we ask. Good news indeed!

    Oh, and you forgot, there is also purgatory for those who have not sought and applied the grace of God to become Saints while still on earth. I expect to be there myself though I have certainly already put in some good purgatory time on earth while I was married! Purgatory is a grace of God. We are full of sin, most of us, when we die, and we need a place to get cleaned up and to finish learning the lessons of love that we didn't learn well enough on earth before we can stand being in the presence of the Eternal Love... Purgatory is a lovely gift. All of us who go there, every single one, is heaven bound so there is that wonderful peace while there...


    And this God actually expects us to believe in all of this through an ancient text written by superstitious people groups from the bronze age. So even knowing all of this, God would willingly create everything. What a 'plan'.
    **** that guy. I can't believe people actually believe this shit.
    I believe and would die for this belief: that the Bible is the very Word of God. However, unlike the Protestant faith that has influenced your thinking here, Catholics believe the Word is also manifest elsewhere, such as in the traditions passed on by word-of-mouth, and held-fast-to [as scriptures attest we are told to] to the Apostles and preserved through the Church He established. - [one example, the powerful sign-of-the-cross gesture, which can be traced back to the Apostles - who weren't making things up after Jesus left!]. We believe Jesus established a Church before he left, not a book: the Holy Spirit, through the Church then gave us the Book. And that would be a visible not an d invisable Church. We believe the Church is entrusted with the full and entire truth about God, and these eternal and absolute truths are preserved through this "institution" that staffed by fallible men [tares among the wheat!] and headed by an unbroken line of successors to the Apostle Peter. I believe this and would die for this too.

    Official Catholic teaching, in spite of what you may have heard, has always been that the Infinite God of the Universe is not limited to the Church He established to impart the fullness of truth, but He is fully and well and assessible through other Christian and non-Christian religions, and to all hearts open to the truth. Yes, all hearts, including those who through their experience and reason have concluded that God must certainly not be present in ANY organized religion. If they seek the truth of God in sincerity, they WILL find it.

    The Catholic Church and all those other organized religions desparagingly accused of casting guilt by talking about sin really have our best interests in mind. The more we sin, the further we run from God, and we risk choosing our own eternal damnation the further we get down that road. I would rather be in a restrictive convoluted religious cult like, say, Jehovah's witness, where I sought to be good our of fear of not being one of the 10,000 elect, or in the Church of Scientology, well on my way to becoming a paranoid, but at least having some perverted incentive to avoid sin, which is much better than no incentive, than to have all the freedom I wanted and choose evil till that's all I wanted in the end...

    So I am telling you about my beloved Church and I know lots of you think its the Whore of Babylon! or full of abusers! since that's what the media says. And if its on the news, it must be true, right? Well the prince of this world hates the Catholic Church more than any other church so you can be sure the world and the culture has been infused with many lies about who we are. The kind of lies the evil one loves - twists of truth. But we all have heads to think with, and we can reason things for ourselves, if its truth we are after.

    I will include the words of the mystic in another post.

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    I heard god was incomprehensible and imperceivable.

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    Eliza Thomason, I think the whole problem with the idea of God giving us free will is that he knew that Satan would fall and never have a chance to repent(angels are not allowed to repent like human beings are etc). Yet he created Satan, knowing this being would rebel and roast in eternal suffering forever. He knew it, yet he chose to do it anwyas. This is what seems dubious; how could a god of love create a being in order to have him suffer. This makes me think God is actually an invention of the human mind, rather than the other way around.

    As far as human beings go, they all may have a choice and things like predestination are too theologically complex to get into here, but Jesus himself, in the gospel of John, said Judas was meant to be condemned "it would be better for him if he had not been born", said Jesus.

    See the loophole in your arguement is that God knew Satan would rebel against him and he would have to send Jesus to die for mankind before the time of creation, in other words, Satan is supposed to have free will yet God knew he would fall. This implies either predestination or no free will.

    The Catholic Church and all those other organized religions desparagingly accused of casting guilt by talking about sin really have our best interests in mind. The more we sin, the further we run from God, and we risk choosing our own eternal damnation the further we get down that road. I would rather be in a restrictive convoluted religious cult like, say, Jehovah's witness, where I sought to be good our of fear of not being one of the 10,000 elect, or in the Church of Scientology, well on my way to becoming a paranoid, but at least having some perverted incentive to avoid sin, which is much better than no incentive, than to have all the freedom I wanted and choose evil till that's all I wanted in the end...
    Im glad for you that you are not a member of those cults anymore. I dont agree with the Catholic church's teachings but they are much healthier(with the exception of a few groups within the catholic church) than the Jehova's witnesses and TomCruisology.

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    Default Words direct from heaven to you Atheists!

    Yes, these words are direct from heaven!

    I said I would include a little something from a mystic of our time, so I will introduce you to how they got here as well as link them.

    This is an American woman, divorced, remarried, living with her husband and children in Ireland now. Jesus began speaking to her, interiorly, and she wrote down what He said. [the evil one copies the things of God, so you will see New Age "automatic writers" copying down the twisted lies of the evil on too]. You can read what she says about herself if you are curious.

    I think its fascinating, as can be seen in Volume I [almost the entirety of her works are available to be read free online, but I have most of them, because they are precious to hold and read] that Jesus spoke to her and taught her and gave her vivid visions of heaven and purgatory while she still struggled with swearing and smoking! I could not have accepted this in my old Christian faith tradition, but I do now.

    Others have trouble with the fact that Jesus might speak to one with such moral imperfections[!], and so some have dug up about her "past" -- for example, under her own name,years before she was receiving these messages from Heaven, she wrote an enthralling autobiographical novel called Breakable Vow [a book used in schools and other programs to teach about the warning signs of an abusive relationship]. Many folks just don't think that Anne is the type of woman that Jesus speaks to - they forget that Jesus hung out with and spoke to sinners while on earth, and that the Eternal One probably hasn't changed His ways....

    In spite of all this, her works have been subject to rigorous official Church examination, so, the best minds today have studied her now-many words and approved that they are theologically perfect and do not disagree with any Church teaching. She has the needed approval of her local Bishop [Catholic protocol for mystics] and the Church has assigned a priest to her apostolate [ministry], Direction for Our Times. Even so, like any prophet, she has vehement detractors, most prominently from within the Church, of course.

    The following link is from one of her little "Heaven Speaks" booklets. The little booklets truly reflect "Directions for Our Times". The words are like very small precise and perfect sound bites because yo know our attention spans these days are small.

    The booklet is called, "Heaven Speaks to Those Who Reject God" and in it, people in Heaven speak directly to Atheists, and to those who say "**** that guy" So you can read here what those in Heaven - those who see you and by the grace of God know you and also your thought and motive, and they also dwell in the Knowledge of the Beautific Vision - have to say to you [and its so very logical. Must be logical-types have the hardest time believing...]:

    http://www.directionforourtimes.org/...God%20Body.pdf

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I heard god was incomprehensible and imperceivable.
    and also comprehensible and perceivable. Its "both/and", I do believe. Very simple yet also very complicated...

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    Hi Typhon! Thanks for a thoughtful reasonable argument!
    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    Eliza Thomason, I think the whole problem with the idea of God giving us free will is that he knew that Satan would fall and never have a chance to repent(angels are not allowed to repent like human beings are etc). Yet he created Satan, knowing this being would rebel and roast in eternal suffering forever.
    Fairness, maybe? I understand that the reason why angels only get ONE CHANCE to decide and when they decide its FOREVER its because they decide with FULL KNOWLEDGE. We decide with partial knowledge, and with the influence of the many demons seeking the ruin of our souls, with the damage done to us on earth by wounded people. Many things! So we have a whole lifetime and lots of chances to fall and sin and if we want help we just ask Him and He gives it swiftly and freely. The angels instead knew full well what they were choosing - Satan and the third of the angels who fell with him [yes, there are more good guys than bad guys]. They made their choice knowing the result.

    He created the angels like man, to have free will. Maybe it wouldn't be true freedom if He did not create the full spectrum of man or the full spectrum of angels, but only certain kinds? Like kind of saying, I will not create ANY of those ESFjS! All the other 15 types, but NOT THOSE because they might cause trouble... Not really quite fair, is it? Its an incomplete and imperfect creation without the ESFjs; it is creating a partial and not a whole spectrum, therefore imperfect, and God is not capable of imperfection....

    So by this analogy, I am assuming that to make his creation of all the angels complete, he had to have the full spectrum, for fairness, or perfect completion, and that included that really bad one and his minions...

    Hope that analogy made sense. I know some very nice ESFJs - though I was married to a broken one who was not nice. (I was just picking a random type to make my point!)

    He knew it, yet he chose to do it anyway. This is what seems dubious; how could a god of love create a being in order to have him suffer. This makes me think God is actually an invention of the human mind, rather than the other way around.
    Well as I explained a bit in both posts, God doesn't make us suffer, we choose the choices that end up in the end to make us suffer. For us people, anytime we want out of this rat race of suffering we call on him in whatever way works for us and He comes to our aid swiftly.

    We know that God suffers when we choose the wrong that will cause us suffering. Jesus suffered so much over Judas, whom He loved so much.


    As far as human beings go, they all may have a choice and things like predestination are too theologically complex to get into here, but Jesus himself, in the gospel of John, said Judas was meant to be condemned "it would be better for him if he had not been born", said Jesus.
    Judas is one of my favorite topics, I think because I experienced betrayal, and God blessed me with finding the words of another mystic that helped me understand Judas.

    Jesus is God, and as God and Man on earth He knew all things. He knew how Judas was going to end up. He loved Judas anyway, and He did on earth what we are to do, live in the present, and in the present He loved Judas and gave Judas His best, and His best was His Holy Heart. He loved Judas and used His loving heart and Ominsicent mind to be the most loving, perfect teacher any man ever had in order to steer his Beloved, Judas, to choose goodness. Yet Judas had what we have, that powerful, powerful God-like gift of free will. And even with the greatest Love teaching him, Judas still choose evil, and to reject God, to be the Deicide, the most infamous figure of all mankind. Judas when he met his perfect judgement of God and his life flashed before him, was in no way able to say, "But you weren't fair with me!" Perhaps Judas was the most evil ever created, and therefore needed the most grace, the grace of the perfect Teacher and perfect Love? Who knows. I am guessing.

    But yes, the Catholic Church will not admit officially to knowing anyone specifically is in Hell, but its clear that for it to be better to have never been born, Judas is in hell!

    See the loophole in your argument is that God knew Satan would rebel against him and he would have to send Jesus to die for mankind before the time of creation, in other words, Satan is supposed to have free will yet God knew he would fall. This implies either predestination or no free will.
    I see it as God knows everything that will happen, He gives us free will and knows what we will choose, and my thought is that His perfection places other constraints on His Creation, such as the unfairness and incompleteness of only allowing 15 types to avoid some problems, when the patterns say there must be 16... Hope that makes sense...



    Im glad for you that you are not a member of those cults anymore. I dont agree with the Catholic church's teachings but they are much healthier(with the exception of a few groups within the catholic church) than the Jehovah's witnesses and Tom Cruisology.
    What! heck no! I was not in these cults!

    I know a lot [in my ENFp way] about them and a lot about various Christian sects, groups, cults, and denominations, as that has been an interest of mine. But I have always thought those two groups among the weirder ones of mainstream cults. I also think Mormon is seriously weird and I am sorry if I offend anyone, but that's the fact. I admire Mormons though! Just that Joe Smith, I think he is roasting now...

    Anyway, I have always taken the view of Jehovah's Witness and Scientology that "At least I am not that bad!". Now I have adjusted my thinking to feel that there are much worse things than this...

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    Ken Blanchard once called the Second Law of Thermodynamics "a deeply disturbing scientific principle that threatens our children's understanding of God's universe as a benevolent and loving place" if my memory serves me right.

    Lead like Jesus

    You think so as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Hi Typhon!
    Hi.

    Fairness, maybe? I understand that the reason why angels only get ONE CHANCE to decide and when they decide its FOREVER its because they decide with FULL KNOWLEDGE. We decide with partial knowledge, and with the influence of the many demons seeking the ruin of our souls, with the damage done to us on earth by wounded people. Many things! So we have a whole lifetime and lots of chances to fall and sin and if we want help we just ask Him and He gives it swiftly and freely. The angels instead knew full well what they were choosing - Satan and the third of the angels who fell with him [yes, there are more good guys than bad guys]. They made their choice knowing the result.
    Interesting I never thought of it like that(angels having full knwoledge when making decisions). But thats not really what my post was about. Which brings me to

    He created the angels like man, to have free will. Maybe it wouldn't be true freedom if He did not create the full spectrum of man or the full spectrum of angels, but only certain kinds? Like kind of saying, I will not create ANY of those ESFjS! All the other 15 types, but NOT THOSE because they might cause trouble... Not really quite fair, is it? Its an incomplete and imperfect creation without the ESFjs; it is creating a partial and not a whole spectrum, therefore imperfect, and God is not capable of imperfection....
    Im not argueing in favor of the people Satan tempts, Im argueing in favor of Satan. So by your arguement, its not so much about God not creating ESFjs in order not to hurt the other types, but about God not creating any of the types because ESFjs end up hurting the other 15 types, they end getting punished and suffer for it more than anyone else. Supposing this scneario is true, a god of love shouldnt have created any of the 16types.


    I see it as God knows everything that will happen, He gives us free will and knows what we will choose, and my thought is that His perfection places other constraints on His Creation, such as the unfairness and incompleteness of only allowing 15 types to avoid some problems, when the patterns say there must be 16... Hope that makes sense...
    Well 15 types couldnt possibly exist. Its like a square traiangle, its a logical impossibilty, since all the fucntions can be combined to form any one of the 16 types, no more, and there is no reason for there to assume no less.

    Good and evil go hand in hand. You cant have one without the other. Hence why creation would seem like a msitake in the first place, if it implies creating evil.

    What! heck no! I was not in these cults!
    Oh I thought by the way you said that, you were. Good to know you werent though since many who are are damaged for life.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    I'm not arguing in favor of the people Satan tempts, I'm arguing in favor of Satan. So by your argument, its not so much about God not creating ESFjs in order not to hurt the other types, but about God not creating any of the types because ESFjs end up hurting the other 15 types, they end getting punished and suffer for it more than anyone else. Supposing this scenario is true, a god of love shouldn't have created any of the 16types.
    Okay, I think I am following your logic. But he created the angels, that Lucifer was a part of, and the angels are a great good. God probably saw the angels, all of them, when He made them [actually, when they were His thought], and said, "It is Good." And the goodness of Lucifer was a true good that existed for a time of eternity. All this good - this seems to me to be good enough reason to have created them?

    The goodness is greater than the evil.

    And I am assuming that when he created the angels, and when he created men with free will to choose right and wrong, it was for the greater good. Because you certainly realize that we cannot love without free will. We see this in earthly love, and that is a reflection of heavenly love. We are made for God, and to love Him [Who already loves us] in eternity. [And, to love God is part of the joy of eternity. We know on earth a little bit of how joyful it is to love.]

    So to fulfill our destiny, He must necessarily have created us with free will. The price of free will is that some will choose sin.

    Well 15 types couldn't possibly exist. Its like a square triangle, its a logical impossibility, since all the functions can be combined to form any one of the 16 types, no more, and there is no reason for there to assume no less.
    Exactly! Yes, you got my point so I see we are following each others' logic. Yes, 15 types is an impossibility. Its a perversion. Its broken. What I am saying is, in the same way, among the angels, Lucifer was necessary, the 16th type that is trouble-making, but without it the whole entire system is crippled. Like the angels just couldn't exist without Lucifer amongst them. He's be the missing piece leaving the whole creation of angels wrong, and impossible, like a square triangle.


    And, just a further thought, you can see that the existing angels went through the same sort of "trial" we did, having a choice to choose good or evil, though it was different for them in Heaven with full knowledge, and we on earth with part. And they watch us anxiously on earth, and steer us towards the right choice and circumstances so we can choose right, and we hear the stories of their saving our lives, because they want us to have the time we need to decide for God. And they all rejoice in Heaven for us when we make a right choice, a choice towards God, because they know the eternal importance of all we do on earth.

    Good and evil go hand in hand. You cant have one without the other. Hence why creation would seem like a mistake in the first place, if it implies creating evil.
    Yes, but then, what about necessary evils and greater goods....


    Oh I thought by the way you said that, you were. Good to know you weren't though since many who are are damaged for life.
    Yes, there but for the grace of God go I. But I have experienced spiritual damage from organized religion that taught error. I still say I got more good out of it than damage (that's how it worked for me) and I am grateful to God that He has healed the damage, some through slow understanding and some through fast healing.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 12-30-2011 at 02:01 AM.

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