Hi, new ENFp

[Eliza Thomason]

Hi I am Eliza and recently discovered Socionics and have been reading some, and hope to read more and ask and learn more about it. I have some questions on typing, particularly the whole MBTI/Socionics cross-over, and about Duality, that I will seek answers to. The whole relationship aspect is particularly interesting to me. I look back on past relationships and am confirmed that this or that relationship - marriage, friendships, parents - was in fact as described in Socionics. And I look ahead seeking not to make some of the same mistakes as I approach the second half of my adult life!

[Pa3s]

Hello dual.

[Eliza Thomason]

Dual! Hello!

[Creepy-Snaps]

"Location
eastern U.S."

We have something in common!

Welcome Eliza. What are your questions concerning MBTI/Socionics crossover? Maybe I can be of some Benefit to you.

[Eliza Thomason]

Hi Mountain Dew! Thank you for the welcome. ...

So, I see people say, with much confidence, that ISTPs in MBTI are automatically ISTjs instead of ISTps in Socionics. Yet, of the 3 ISTPs I know, my Dad, my brother, and my friend - I think they are all ISTps. So what is it with this? How can you be sure your ISTP is and ISTp??

And can you explain in simple language, very simple, the difference between and ISTP and and ISTp??

Thanks!

[Mediator Kam]

Hi Mountain Dew! Thank you for the welcome. I'm in upstate NY... my grandmother lived in center city Philadelphia for a long time, in a brick row house, and we used to visit her there... and I was born in the hospital across the river, in that strikingly beautiful city of Camden...

So, I see people say, with much confidence, that ISTPs in MBTI are automatically ISTjs instead of ISTps in Socionics. Yet, of the 3 ISTPs I know, my Dad, my brother, and my friend - I think they are all ISTps. So what is it with this? How can you be sure your ISTP is and ISTp??

And can you explain in simple language, very simple, the difference between and ISTP and and ISTp??

Thanks!

The J/P switch is not valid. You are better off keeping MBTI and socionics separate.

[Eliza Thomason]

Yes, keep them separate. Just want to understand the difference, specifically between and ISTP and an ISTp - or is it just way to complicated to explain simply?

Also, I am reading, and wanted to thank/like posts, but I don't see how. Is it because I am too new?

[Raver]

Welcome Eliza.

[Galen]

Yes, keep them separate. Just want to understand the difference, specifically between and ISTP and an ISTp - or is it just way to complicated to explain simply?

Also, I am reading, and wanted to thank/like posts, but I don't see how. Is it because I am too new?

The difference has to do with how socionics and MBTI terminology defines 'perceiving' types. Socionics has it that XXXp types have an irrational function (Nx or Sx) as their leading, and MBTI XXXP means that the type's extroverted function is irrational (Ne or Se). This naturally creates two incompatible depictions of the temperaments and pretty much skews a lot of what compatibility their may be between the two system.

[Eliza Thomason]

Can you (or someone) please put it in a simpler specific example? For example, An ENFp has WHAT irrational function, (and what is an irrational function?). And ENFP has which extroverted function which is irrational.?

Same thing iwth ISTp/ISTP would be help too! As they are "I"s and I think there is a difference?

Thanks.

[Raver]

Can you (or someone) please put it in a simpler specific example? For example, An ENFp has WHAT irrational function, (and what is an irrational function?). And ENFP has which extroverted function which is irrational.?

Same thing iwth ISTp/ISTP would be help too! As they are "I"s and I think there is a difference?

Thanks.

ENFp and ENFP both have (extraverted intuition) as the dominant irrational function and (introverted feeling) as the creative rational function. ISTp has (introverted sensing) as the dominant irrational function and (extraverted thinking) as the creative rational function. ISTP is more like an ISTj where it has (introverted thinking) dominant rational function and (extraverted sensing) as the creative irrational function. Irrational functions are functions that are based on perception (intuition/sensing), such as (extraverted intuition), (introverted sensing), (introverted intuition), (extraverted sensing). Rational functions are functions that are based on judgement (thinking/feeling), such as (introverted thinking), (introverted feeling), (extraverted feeling), (extraverted thinking).

[Creepy-Snaps]

Yes, keep them separate. Just want to understand the difference, specifically between and ISTP and an ISTp - or is it just way to complicated to explain simply?

Check out this chart, with the percentage correlation between MBTI and Socionics:

http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/table3.gif

According to that, 79% of ISTPs are ISTps in Socionics, that's not a far stretch to say that 3 ISTPs would be ISTps.... 79% * 79% * 79% = 49.3% chance. Or basically the flip of a coin, so pretty common chance.

Also, the thread here is worth a decent read: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ics-types.html

The conversion can be summed up as: "You can be any socionics type and any MBTI type, they don't HAVE to be all that similar but they are a lot of the time."

Basically, treat them as two different systems. Notice on the chart, there's a 24% chance an MBTI ENTJ would be a Socionics ISTj, a 13% chance that an MBTI ESTP would be a Socionics ENFp, and a surprisingly large 52% chance that an MBTI INTJ would be a Socionics ESTp.

The chart is extremely useful to reference to. Helps you realize, there's no direct conversion, and each person should be treated on a case by case basis.

[Suz]

Hi Mountain Dew! Thank you for the welcome. I'm in upstate NY... my grandmother lived in center city Philadelphia for a long time, in a brick row house, and we used to visit her there... and I was born in the hospital across the river, in that strikingly beautiful city of Camden...

So, I see people say, with much confidence, that ISTPs in MBTI are automatically ISTjs instead of ISTps in Socionics.

NO, WRONG, NO!!! I see that u probably started on the socionics.com site. I did too, and came out with the same impression. This heaviily threw me off when i first started studying socionics about 2 years ago, such that being a consistent INFJ in MBTI, i made a seriously bad mistyping of myself initially as IEI (socionics INFp), which landed me in my opposing quadra. After a couple months of trying to bond with the betas, it became gradually clear i did not share the beta quadra values, and it was just a very unpleasant experience all around.

Eventually I discovered that i'm IEE (ENFp), which has fit beautifully, and learned that there is no "conversion formula" from MBTI type to socionics type. They are two systems with a very different focus, albeit with similar roots and using the same nomenclature. For example, introversion/extraversion is defined differently between the two. Also in MBTI, it's acceptable to analyse intuition, feeling, sensing, etc separately from introversion/extraversion, whereas in socionics e.g. extraverted intuition (Ne) is something very very different from introverted intuition (Ni), in other words, Ne for example is an information element in that you cant divorce the intuition from the extraversion.

Yet, of the 3 ISTPs I know, my Dad, my brother, and my friend - I think they are all ISTps. So what is it with this? How can you be sure your ISTP is and ISTp??

point in case. You can't be sure until you just forget what their MBTI typing is, and just type them from scratch in socionics.

And can you explain in simple language, very simple, the difference between and ISTP and and ISTp??

You can't explain it, because some ISTPs might be ISTp's, and some ISTPs might be a totally different socionic type (not just ISTj). Just as some socionic ISTp's will be all sorts of different MBTI types.

[Eliza Thomason]

Thank you, Traveler, Mountain Dew, and WorkaholicsAnon! This is so useful. Exactly what I needed! I
ll explain that later elsewhere I am sure...

WorkaholisAnon, I liked what you said in a lot of your posts. I couldn't thank them though, wasn't accepted member yet...

I recently took a test on that website and it also said I was an INFP! I have studied BMTI a long time and am sure i am an ENFP, however, I know I am very close to 50-50 on E or I. I do have a lot in common with INFP. But I always realize I am ENFP. I grew up with two introverted parents and quiet and undemonstrative was the norm, and I was very shy so I have a lifetime of "I" habits. However, I am "E". That really came out when I got in college, when I was able to become who I really was. One way I explain that I am "E" is that what you see is what you get. I do not hide the real me.

When I look at pics of INFp's and ENFp's in Socionics I see perhaps stronger similarities with the INFp's. However, there are also similarities with the ENFp's, and when I read about the two types, their strengths and weaknesses, I identify clearly with ENFp's...

When you are near-borderline on a preference, like "E or I" as with me (the other three areas have always been quite strong for me) or maybe another area, like "T or F" or "N or S", I wonder if you find yourself similar to the other type, as I am similar to INFP or INFp [while still being ENFp]?

[Raver]

Thank you, Traveler, Mountain Dew, and WorkaholicsAnon! This is so useful. Exactly what I needed! I
ll explain that later elsewhere I am sure...

WorkaholisAnon, I liked what you said in a lot of your posts. I couldn't thank them though, wasn't accepted member yet...

I recently took a test on that website and it also said I was an INFP! I have studied BMTI a long time and am sure i am an ENFP, however, I know I am very close to 50-50 on E or I. I do have a lot in common with INFP. But I always realize I am ENFP. I grew up with two introverted parents and quiet and undemonstrative was the norm, and I was very shy so I have a lifetime of "I" habits. However, I am "E". That really came out when I got in college, when I was able to become who I really was. One way I explain that I am "E" is that what you see is what you get. I do not hide the real me.

When I look at pics of INFp's and ENFp's in Socionics I see perhaps stronger similarities with the INFp's. However, there are also similarities with the ENFp's, and when I read about the two types, their strengths and weaknesses, I identify clearly with ENFp's...

When you are near-borderline on a preference, like "E or I" as with me (the other three areas have always been quite strong for me) or maybe another area, like "T or F" or "N or S", I wonder if you find yourself similar to the other type, as I am similar to INFP or INFp [while still being ENFp]?

You're welcome Eliza. In Socionics, traits like shyness and not being social have little do with actual introversion or extraversion. All that matters is what functions are your dominant functions. ENFps have more in common with INFjs than INFps in Socionics because their functions are identical, but they are simply ordered differently. I think it is most likely that you are just a shy ENFp like me. I'm probably more stereotypically introverted than your average INFp or INFj because I am shy and not that sociable, but this has little do with what functions I value and use. I'm even an subtype, which in theory should mean I am more extraverted, but that is not really the case at all. ENFps are also described as being the most introverted out of all the extraverts. Instead focus on where you derive your energy from as extraverts derive their energy externally and introverts internally, which has little to do with shyness or being sociable.

[Beautiful sky]

MBTI interpreted Jung's work in a weird out of wack kind of way and does not produce consistent results between tests and result.

[Park]

Hello. Welcome to the 6th circle of hell.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

what are Maritsa's thoughts on Eliza's type?

[Eye of the Potato]

NO, WRONG, NO!!! I see that u probably started on the socionics.com site. I did too, and came out with the same impression. This heaviily threw me off when i first started studying socionics about 2 years ago, such that being a consistent INFJ in MBTI, i made a seriously bad mistyping of myself initially as IEI (socionics INFp), which landed me in my opposing quadra. After a couple months of trying to bond with the betas, it became gradually clear i did not share the beta quadra values, and it was just a very unpleasant experience all around.

Eventually I discovered that i'm IEE (ENFp), which has fit beautifully, and learned that there is no "conversion formula" from MBTI type to socionics type. They are two systems with a very different focus, albeit with similar roots and using the same nomenclature. For example, introversion/extraversion is defined differently between the two. Also in MBTI, it's acceptable to analyse intuition, feeling, sensing, etc separately from introversion/extraversion, whereas in socionics e.g. extraverted intuition (Ne) is something very very different from introverted intuition (Ni), in other words, Ne for example is an information element in that you cant divorce the intuition from the extraversion.




point in case. You can't be sure until you just forget what their MBTI typing is, and just type them from scratch in socionics.

Well when you put it like that. Clearly Socionics is the superior theory. It's sloppy not to consider if intuition is introverted or extroverted. Just sloppy.

Welcome to the forum!

[Park]

what are Maritsa's thoughts on Eliza's type?

ISFp, confirm.

[Creepy-Snaps]

what are Maritsa's thoughts on Eliza's type?

[Nowisthetime]

I have some questions on typing, particularly the whole MBTI/Socionics cross-over

MBTI doesn't capture the types correctly, the types are always floating and inconsistent, so there is no formula on how to convert between types. Best to forget MBTI.

[MisterNi]

The whole relationship aspect is particularly interesting to me. I look back on past relationships and am confirmed that this or that relationship - marriage, friendships, parents - was in fact as described in Socionics. And I look ahead seeking not to make some of the same mistakes as I approach the second half of my adult life!

Hello and welcome! You'll find that duality and other Socionically compatible relations are "better" according to theory but can end just as easily as non-compatible relations. This is due to other more pertinent factors in a relationship. However, if you and a compatible partner can align Socionically as well as in other important areas of your life, then you'll likely to have a relationship that's impossible/very difficult to break.

[Absurd]

What happened to you?

[Creepy-Snaps]

What happened to you?

I changed my profile picture. What do you mean 'what happened'?

[Slacker]

He got his hair cut, absurd.

OK so new ENFp, we need info about you. I heard you talking about kid or kids at some point, so how old are you, how many kids, info about them, etc. Background! what jobs have you had, schooling, etc.

welcome btw

[Eliza Thomason]

Oh gosh, sure, later! Picking up my one and only teen, now from high school. I am slightly paranoid about giving personal info over internet! Always was private, but the trauma of being a defendant in a long divorce and custody battle involving LIES kind of drove that home.. But I'll try, but later, because I am helping at a very large multi-school sport event my son's team is hosting at his school this weekend, many many hours...

[Eliza Thomason]

He got his hair cut, absurd.

OK so new ENFp, we need info about you. I heard you talking about kid or kids at some point, so how old are you, how many kids, info about them, etc. Background! what jobs have you had, schooling, etc.

welcome btw

Okay son doesn't need ride so I will answer Qs. I am really an ENFp open-book but like I said, cautious, trauma does that to you. My "I" parents also trained me to mistrust. I trusted my ex, though, idealistically, and ridiculously and my ex used my open-book personality to manipulate me for many years, and I didn't know what was going on for years. Also traumatic. But i have been healed, and recently, so need to change old habits.

I told you about my son. I always wanted 5 kids but was lucky to get one out of my ex. After college I helped my husband finish his college working at the campus medical library, really really boring stuff, really poor, living on love (actually disillusionment and hope, setting the tone for my life of denial about it). Back in our part of the country I started teaching art and did this 9 years pretty much till my water broke for my son!

I practiced attachment parenting, and took that even further with homeschooling, which I had taken an interest in when writing papers on it for my Masters [required of teachers]. I managed to continue through 2nd grade while the horrible divorce dragged out and I taught my son reading, writing and math and he still excells in these areas -- because homeschooling is the very best way to get these basics down, and the very easiest. Anyone can do it.

I chose good curriculum for these basics and spent the barest minimal time on it daily, preferring instead barefoot walks, visits with friends, reading books aloud [Narnia series a favorite also Redwall, King Arthur and Robin Hood], visiting neighbors and the neighbors farms - got raw milk and made our own butter, buying produce at an Amish auction and canning together or cooking together or planting and watering flowers, or whatever we felt like doing. And just letting my son do his thing. It was the life I dreamed of but I had it only a short time.

My ex was secretly taping [recording] our activities and thought he could get custody on the basis of my academic neglect, what with the tiny amount of time we spent on formal lessons, so my son got subjected to a lot of boring testing which he still remembers angrily to this day. He is not a genius (they tested his I.Q.) but he had achieved well above grade in all areas, particularly comprehension. So much to be said for a relaxed easy homeschool life...

[and putting him in public school for 3rd grade was a nightmare. Having your child in school, making him do whatever nightmare homework is handed to you that day to be done that night when your child is exhausted from the over-stimulation of the school day and just wants to play - especially if he is a boy because the girls will WRITE for FUN during recess! - this is so hard. Homeschooling is EASY. School is HARD.]

I have just been gong down memory land looking through pics of those happy days so that's why so wordy. That and I am an ENFp!

Then the divorce and life not at all like I planned. Many moves. Much prayer, and spiritual growth. Learned that Acceptance is the key to remaining sane when insane things happen to you. Also the key to forgiveness. The healing minister for the healing I just went through taught, "Forgiveness is accepting the consequences of someone else's sins." That is a gem of truth!

Spiritual growth, important to me, and also involved various faith traditions. An interest of mine.

After my divorce I was very much alone in the world, and afraid, and my self-esteem had taken a hit. Back in college, I wrote a list my life goals, and one of them was [and, I was a Christian, mind you, but this was "brainstorming" so anything goes] that someday I wanted to have a "short sweet exciting affair". Well this would have been the time! I prayed God's help knowing this was not His will, and He gave it. His help is swift and strong when we ask for it. So it remains as an important theme for me. I didn't cheat in my miserable loveless marriage, and was not unchaste after it. An accomplishment that many would laugh at. My dual also practiced chastity for his own faith reasons, and we so value each other's gift, knowing others could care less about it. To have met him and find now he probably is my dual, it feels like a gift from God. If he is the one for me, that is. It sure seems possible.

[Park]

What happened to you?

HE GOT REBORN

[Slacker]

I think MD just got his hair cut.

Eliza, your story is very interesting and I find we have some things in common, but I'm not sure just how to respond overall as my kid is in public school and I am not a Christian. But different strokes and all that! Anyway, welcome.

[Eliza Thomason]

Thanks for responding, Slacker... the silence was getting deafening. My son is in public school and its going fine now. We tried private in 4th and part of 5th and that was a bust. I am glad he had time to play a lot and to be a relaxed kid through 2nd grade (and me, a relaxed Mom!)

Mark Twain - he may have been an atheist, certainly a questioner, yet he wrote one of my favorite books, which was also one of his, as, he said: "I like Joan of Arc best among all my books." I read it twice.

[ORION]

Hi, Eliza. Welcome.

I have an IEE daughter What type is your son?

[Beautiful sky]

what are Maritsa's thoughts on Eliza's type?

IEE

[Park]

I think MD just got his hair cut.

And I see you got yours dyed.

[Eliza Thomason]

Hi, Eliza. Welcome.

I have an IEE daughter What type is your son?

Hi! He SAYS - from short test, that he is ESFj - ESE. Which means I am surrounded by them, outnumbered! But at least he is a healthy sane one! But I think having a girlfriend and mushy talk makes him think he's an "F" but I have never seen him as a feeling type. My first quick guess is ESTp. But I could be wrong on that - and we could both be wrong. I haven't looked into it deeply yet but I will...