Do duals know how to get under each other's skin?

[Clumsy]

This might be a bit of a weird question... but do the best duals for you know exactly how to get under your skin?

To sort of push you to confront the truth about yourself, even if it's not what you want to hear? And is this some sort of giveaway that said dual is somewhat closer to what you need?

For example, they know when you're BSing, or at least see right through you like no one else? (Maybe this is more of an SLE/IEI duality thing...)

I guess this sort of goes hand in hand with how duals can sometimes be so similar in certain ways as well.


In your experience, were there things that you didn't expect that you needed (even if you knew about duality), or things that you may not have wanted at all beforehand that your dual provided (and you ultimately needed anyways)?

[DirectorAbbie]

A good dual knows things you don't know, wants to know things you know, and is at your maturity level (whatever that may be).

And they will know how to hit the mark when teasing but won't get under the skin. That's for conflictors.

Pushing you to confront the truth is something anyone can do. Pushing you toward something that is actually true is a talent.

[Leader]

No.

[Suz]

This might be a bit of a weird question... but do the best duals for you know exactly how to get under your skin?

To sort of push you to confront the truth about yourself, even if it's not what you want to hear? And is this some sort of giveaway that said dual is somewhat closer to what you need?

For example, they know when you're BSing, or at least see right through you like no one else? (Maybe this is more of an SLE/IEI duality thing...)

I guess this sort of goes hand in hand with how duals can sometimes be so similar in certain ways as well.

In my experience... YES, YES and YES (not just SLE/IEI).

But getting under your skin and pushing you to confront the hard truth about yourself is done in a way such that you really want to improve yourself, not that you feel them judging you or MAKING you do something. The dual INSPIRES you to change for the better. The getting under your skin that i'm getting at is that duals have the potential (whether intentional or not) to hurt each other deeply. I think both are most prominent if you're currently undualized--and probably what Aushra was referring to by the "run-in" period in the initial stages of duality when the relation can fall apart.

as for knowing when a dual is BS'ing... I know I can easily tell. And i'm less shy about pointing it out to them, than i would be to another type. Personally, I can't bring myself to lie or BS to the duals i've closely interacted with. It's sort of a combo of having no desire to, and a feeling that they will know that i'm BS'ing.

In your experience, were there things that you didn't expect that you needed (even if you knew about duality), or things that you may not have wanted at all beforehand that your dual provided (and you ultimately needed anyways)?

Oh and yes, of course.

[Aquagraph]

Yes. She never gets hurt by the awful things I say to her as a joke and when I'm giving her advice, I tell the bad things (if any) as they are and she gets hurt and is grateful for it. I sometimes even add insult to injury and she's even more grateful as she is closer to accepting the truth as it is. I test people's loyalty by being spiteful and she just laughs it off. She'll make a dream girlfriend for some ILE.

She always manages to see when I need cheering up and is really persistent. And buys me a beer.

[Pa3s]

Maybe I'm dysfunctional, but the idea of duality being some 100% total comfort zone thing sounds creepy and unrealistic.

This is how an identical relationship is, imho. Same strenghts + same weaknesses lead to good understanding adn comfort but zero progress in overcoming those shared weaknesses.

[Suz]

Yeah, duals have a strong ability to get under each other's skin IMO/IME. I think this can be constructive, but not always. Sometimes they just annoy the piss out of you.

Maybe I'm dysfunctional, but the idea of duality being some 100% total comfort zone thing sounds creepy and unrealistic.

I thought "comfort" was meant more as feeling comfortable to share what's on your mind... and not worrying that you will be harshly judged... or at least including that.

[Absurd]

Poor duality. What is it going to do now?

[Clumsy]

In my experience... YES, YES and YES (not just SLE/IEI).

But getting under your skin and pushing you to confront the hard truth about yourself is done in a way such that you really want to improve yourself, not that you feel them judging you or MAKING you do something. The dual INSPIRES you to change for the better. The getting under your skin that i'm getting at is that duals have the potential (whether intentional or not) to hurt each other deeply. I think both are most prominent if you're currently undualized--and probably what Aushra was referring to by the "run-in" period in the initial stages of duality when the relation can fall apart.

as for knowing when a dual is BS'ing... I know I can easily tell. And i'm less shy about pointing it out to them, than i would be to another type. Personally, I can't bring myself to lie or BS to the duals i've closely interacted with. It's sort of a combo of having no desire to, and a feeling that they will know that i'm BS'ing.



Oh and yes, of course.

What things did you not expect you needed or didn't think you wanted (if you don't mind me asking)? Thanks for the reply, WorkaholicsAnon!

[lemontrees]

Actually, one of the things I found most wonderful about my interactions with my ILE best guy friend (before he passed away) was that I knew he'd always manage to see straight through my BS, but he would usually word it in a way that would make me laugh. Most of the time I'm really sensitive to criticism, so that feeling was amazing. It felt like a relief, like "man okay I have to own up to this, but it's cool, yeah it's funny, next time I won't do this." It's also really comforting to know that someone who can see through your BS can not only a) help you but b) love you despite it.

Also he pushed me a lot to do little things I didn't want to do, saying that I didn't believe in my own abilities, and then show me that I could actually be really good at things I didn't think I could. Yeah, half the time it was b/c he was being a lazy son of a ----- and didn't want to do it himself. But all of that was endearing too, even when it was irritating. I miss him so much.

I haven't had the same experience with all ILE's, obviously, but I think it's definitely possible. Also our friendship was far from perfect (the problems that would ultimately play a role in his death definitely affected the friendship itself) but it still didn't stop these things from being true.

[717495]

Poor duality. What is it going to do now?

[Absurd]

[InkStrider]

Substitute 'twin soul' with 'dual', and we get the real deal with duality:

The twin soul relationship is the relationship on earth where you are most likely to lose yourself in the other half. Some will say that if you are strong in your Self, this cannot happen, but one thing that has to be taken seriously into account when it comes to the twin soul is that love is very seductive. You feel unconditional love for the other half and this feeling can actually lead you to become Selfless in your love for him/her. For this reason the twin soul relationship is all the time also a relationship that one has with oneself. One has to be aware and conscious about not losing oneself to the twin on many occasions, because when the loss of ones self happens, both twins will be lost. The paradox is of course that you cannot merge into the other half without losing your self in the union.

With the merging and union with the twin soul, you get to feel your Self again, you become conscious again and you start asking yourself questions and you also feel that there are things in life that you don't want to put yourself up with anymore. You cannot anymore just watch your life from the outside , you need to take part in it. Some people will claim that when it comes to the twin soul process, it all happens spiritually beyond ones own control, the truth is that the twin soul process is really such a deeply personal process, so that it forces you to be 100% present in your own life. You must face your life, yourself here and now. You must be a soul fully alive in your physical body. You might not be able to control the overall process that has to do with your twin soul, but you can control yourself. When you feel that there has been a loss, not of just the loss of your twin soul, but also the individual loss of yourself, you will feel feelings that are not spiritual at all. It can be intense feelings of anger, hurt, unconditional love for the twin, and pain of separation. I think it is very important that you feel these feelings in you, otherwise there will be no connection to your twin soul. You cannot get to your twin soul during time of separation if you do not feel how deeply you at times have felt the loss of your own Self and the loss of your twin soul. The only way to the twin is therefore through your Self.

It is about achieving a ”realization of the Self”. This means that in your individual Self of who you are, you have potential gifts and longings with what you want to do with your life. Some people will say: I just want to be with my twin soul – that is all I want to do with my life. The truth is if all you want with your life is to be with another person, twin soul or soul mate, you will not have achieved any ”realization of your own Self”. You will not know who you are or what you want to do with your life. You will have lost your sense of Self. Self Realization means that instead of focusing on your twin soul, you focus instead on using all your God given talents and this way becoming the whole you that you can be. You become ”whole” in you. Now wholeness does not mean that you do not need other people in your life. Wholeness means that you are strong and safe in your Self. You trust and know that you can be yourself 100% without feeling that you are missing something inside of you. You use all your God given gifts and potentials to turn yourself more into you. In this way you are completely true to yourself, you use the abilities and gifts that you have. For this reason it is no longer a question of the twin souls being each other or trying to be each other, but a question of each of them being their true individual selves, actively living a life according to their full potential, doing what each of them do best. They are ONE soul, but two individual, two selves.

http://www.harusami.com/soul2soul/twins/tie_link.html

The right dual is one whom you respect and care enough, who in turn respects and cares enough for you to support each other throughout the process of individuation. There are standards to be met, individual goals to pursue. For this reason, duality is tough and hardly an easy one where we get to rest on our own laurels.

[Slacker]

Actually, one of the things I found most wonderful about my interactions with my ILE best guy friend (before he passed away) was that I knew he'd always manage to see straight through my BS, but he would usually word it in a way that would make me laugh. Most of the time I'm really sensitive to criticism, so that feeling was amazing. It felt like a relief, like "man okay I have to own up to this, but it's cool, yeah it's funny, next time I won't do this." It's also really comforting to know that someone who can see through your BS can not only a) help you but b) love you despite it.

Also he pushed me a lot to do little things I didn't want to do, saying that I didn't believe in my own abilities, and then show me that I could actually be really good at things I didn't think I could. Yeah, half the time it was b/c he was being a lazy son of a ----- and didn't want to do it himself. But all of that was endearing too, even when it was irritating. I miss him so much.

I haven't had the same experience with all ILE's, obviously, but I think it's definitely possible. Also our friendship was far from perfect (the problems that would ultimately play a role in his death definitely affected the friendship itself) but it still didn't stop these things from being true.

My husband does this too. If I am wrong about something, or doing something I shouldn't, or whatever, he has this nice way of teasing me in a way that makes me change without offending me.

But I don't think SLIs in general get under my skin or annoy me. Maybe sometimes but not most and not as a general thing.

[MisterNi]

I think part of the appeal of duality is that both people seem interesting and fascinating to each other in a way that's conformative and complementary. I know with my duals, I can see right through their BS and call them on it.

Or maybe I just have a highly developed BS detector and isn't socionics related at all.

[Diaphanous]

Being in a long-term relationship with a dual has been possibly the single greatest opportunity for growth I've ever encountered, but it is by no means easy. Definitely tough at times but ultimately worth it; LSE "tough love" was something I had to get used to, since I tend to surround myself with Delta NFs and ESIs. That kind of unadorned and very direct honesty was bitter at first, but now I prefer it and I find myself sounding like him sometimes.

Sometimes I'd feel like I'm really unproductive and just not contributing to society and then he's like, "Well stop feeling sorry for yourself. Get out of your head and DO something about it." A few years ago I would have been offended by the lack of sympathy, but now I realize that it's exactly what I need to hear, so I take action. Then I feel better.

I agree with the "Identity is easy" statement that Pa3s made. With my EII friends I feel no need to stretch, if that makes sense. We just say what the other is thinking and smile and love how in agreement we are about everything. I could have messed my duality up, though. Truth be told, I was probably pretty tough to deal with in the beginning. So was he though. We hadn't really ever had interaction with our duals and it was simultaneously awesome and really eye-opening. I think we both sensed that it was worth it. Now we've reached this comfort level that is just unsurpassable.

I'm a really self-conscious person and I don't take criticism too well most of the time. But I know we've helped each other grow immensely. I think I used to have this idea of, "Now I have someone to take care of all those quotidian Te and Si things that I'm no good at / don't like to do." But he didn't let that happen. He basically showed me that I need to develop those areas of myself, but that he was happy to help me. I have a feeling I've probably done a similar thing for him, however you can apply that to Fi and Ne.

[FDG]

It's not that magical, I've had dual friends since I was a small kid. I must say though you need to find a dual which has a roughly similar kind of sense of humor and interest in intellectual topics (be it zero, medium, or high). Otherwise your life end up being slightly mismatched.

Getting "under my skin" isn't a good way to change my behavior if I'm doing something unoptimal, probably it's just better to say it out loud.

[willekeurig]

LSE "tough love" was something I had to get used to, since I tend to surround myself with Delta NFs and ESIs. That kind of unadorned and very direct honesty was bitter at first, but now I prefer it and I find myself sounding like him sometimes.

Sometimes I'd feel like I'm really unproductive and just not contributing to society and then he's like, "Well stop feeling sorry for yourself. Get out of your head and DO something about it." A few years ago I would have been offended by the lack of sympathy,

This I think is the reason I have so many IEE friends; they have both, sympathy and concrete solutions. IEEs have an astonishing ability to make me see the bright side of things and my own potentials in desperate situations, whereas with most LSEs I get the feeling that they blame me for not being naturally good at things they are and don't really give a shit about my thoughts or feelings. LSEs can be great friends for more superficial activities and help a lot with some practical stuff (like fixing broken items etc), but trusting them with your worries will only make you feel like shit IME.

[Nowisthetime]

ILEs are sometimes polite/friendly in a sort of fake way. But it just feels so obvious so I don't really think that much about it, just feeling that ok, lets get over with this so we can communicate normally and relax, if I think anything at all. Usually my own behaviour "corrects" them after awhile, I don't say anything, although I've seen extreme cases when nothing helps.

ILEs often point out things related to my personal situation, sort of a summary or overview. Sometimes they ask me about it, which is weird, because I find it very hard to answer, it's like they should provide the answer to me, not the other way around. They can surprise me with their new perspective, but it doesn't feel like forcing anything.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

what do you mean NEAR russia

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

that is weeeird.i heard that russians used to test laser/x-ray/whatever weaponry near their boarders thus many Chinese people working nearby turned into dust.

[redbaron]

In your experience, were there things that you didn't expect that you needed (even if you knew about duality), or things that you may not have wanted at all beforehand that your dual provided (and you ultimately needed anyways)?

Yes. SLEs aren't afraid to tell it like it is. So I've heard from them a lot of things about myself. Mostly good but some things not so good. Things I hadn't noticed. Better and more clearly than any other type, then can reflect back to me who I am in an accepting non-judgmental way that allows me to make adjustments. SLE-Se does this better (for me) than SLE-Ti.

[redbaron]

It's not that magical, I've had dual friends since I was a small kid.

but for people who haven't had that, it can feel magical.

I must say though you need to find a dual which has a roughly similar kind of sense of humor and interest in intellectual topics (be it zero, medium, or high). Otherwise your life end up being slightly mismatched.

agreed. although I can still learn things and benefit from dual friends who are different in those respects and who would not make good life partners.

[wacey]

Being in a long-term relationship with a dual has been possibly the single greatest opportunity for growth I've ever encountered, but it is by no means easy. Definitely tough at times but ultimately worth it; LSE "tough love" was something I had to get used to, since I tend to surround myself with Delta NFs and ESIs. That kind of unadorned and very direct honesty was bitter at first, but now I prefer it and I find myself sounding like him sometimes.

Sometimes I'd feel like I'm really unproductive and just not contributing to society and then he's like, "Well stop feeling sorry for yourself. Get out of your head and DO something about it." A few years ago I would have been offended by the lack of sympathy, but now I realize that it's exactly what I need to hear, so I take action. Then I feel better.

I agree with the "Identity is easy" statement that Pa3s made. With my EII friends I feel no need to stretch, if that makes sense. We just say what the other is thinking and smile and love how in agreement we are about everything. I could have messed my duality up, though. Truth be told, I was probably pretty tough to deal with in the beginning. So was he though. We hadn't really ever had interaction with our duals and it was simultaneously awesome and really eye-opening. I think we both sensed that it was worth it. Now we've reached this comfort level that is just unsurpassable.

I'm a really self-conscious person and I don't take criticism too well most of the time. But I know we've helped each other grow immensely. I think I used to have this idea of, "Now I have someone to take care of all those quotidian Te and Si things that I'm no good at / don't like to do." But he didn't let that happen. He basically showed me that I need to develop those areas of myself, but that he was happy to help me. I have a feeling I've probably done a similar thing for him, however you can apply that to Fi and Ne.

It's posts like this that confirm for me the validity of duality as a real life phenomenom. So well said, EII's can help themsleves, even when they get so down on themselves.

[Park]

According to @Gilly, the right dual for me would be an ENFp, Ne subtype, enneagram 6w7 sp/so (or 7w6 sp/so; soon to be determined).

[redbaron]

According to @Gilly, the right dual for me would be an ENFp, Ne subtype, enneagram 6w7 sp/so (or 7w6 sp/so; soon to be determined).

now find her.

[Park]

now find her.

Yeah, I was just about to put an ad on craigslist. "SLI-Si 9w8 sp/sx looking for an IEE-Ne 7w6 sp/so. Urgent. Willing to pay in cash."

You think someone will bite?

[ashlesha]

idk about actual duals but ideally a partner would be able to get under my skin in order to offer enough impact for me to stop and reevaluate myself. like you don't pull your hand away from the stove because you know its hot, you do it because you feel the heat. but not in a way that just makes me defensive and wanting to be defiant lol (talking ideally). as for getting under my skin in a completely useless annoying way, i hope not.

[Azure Flame]

Sometimes when texting with my dual, we'll have a misunderstanding and I'll get uncomfortable, then she'll play it off as if she was just trying to make me uncomfortable. Truth is its a cover up and I yell at her for it. There haven't been any problems since.

I think duals would probably get under one anothers' skin if they're insecure in some regard. Insecurity to me means a deviation from genuine behavior. That's probably why duality is known for removing all the insecurities and being so fucking magical and shit.

[Diaphanous]

This I think is the reason I have so many IEE friends; they have both, sympathy and concrete solutions. IEEs have an astonishing ability to make me see the bright side of things and my own potentials in desperate situations, whereas with most LSEs I get the feeling that they blame me for not being naturally good at things they are and don't really give a shit about my thoughts or feelings. LSEs can be great friends for more superficial activities and help a lot with some practical stuff (like fixing broken items etc), but trusting them with your worries will only make you feel like shit IME.

Yeah, IEEs make me feel so so good about myself. And they're actually convincing about it. It's so nice to have them to cater to my 4 neediness, lol. I hate it when I want sympathy but someone just gives me, "Oh you're fine. You're doing the best you can." That's not convincing, haha. However, I read an article that said something about how IEEs secretly know all those parts of you that don't have a lot of potential (that makes sense, since I can tell that with people too) but they won't necessarily point those out to you. It kind of terrifies me to think that by making me feel better and optimistic, the IEE could actually just be inadvertently contributing to my own inertia. But I'd hope they'd be insightful enough to avoid that. On the other hand, when I'm feeling good about myself (even if objectively, I shouldn't because I haven't been putting a lot of effort in) I get a lot more done which makes me feel even better about myself, etc.

And you're spot-on about those LSE negative qualities. Today, for example, I was venting to him. Here's the gist of what happened:

Me: "I should call my dad. I feel bad that I don't really want to though. I want to want to. He probably feels the same way though and that's why he never calls me."
LSE: "That's how relationships with parents are in your early twenties. With the distancing. You're becoming an independent adult and he's trying to come to terms with that..."

I couldn't help but smile at this attempt at FiNe advice (although I appreciated the cute effort) because I felt he was converting his experience into a general rule about the progression of relationships with parents that, however true it may be, isn't necessarily the crux of the matter of my relationship with my father at present. My not being excited about talking to my dad (who's LIE by the way) has more to do with the conversations feeling too small-talk oriented and awkward as they've been since puberty. I think this has more to do with me being gay and my dad being a very, very conservative Christian than it does that I'm becoming an adult and my dad is coming to terms with that. I want a better relationship with my father, but what seems like his recurring lack of effort sometimes makes me less ardent in my attempts.

[FoxOnStilts]

I get under my dual's skin when I'm sick because I'm probably the most whiny needy sick person. I haaate being sick. If I have an attitude/mood issue, I can change it, but sick? Nope. I'm just miserable all the time, and I get really hyper-aware of the fact that I'm probably being annoying. I'd feel less bad about it, but I was just sick like a week and a half ago and I feel like I'm being an inconvenience and shooting down everything he suggests because nothing sounds okay. I am terrible when sick. Particularly with fevers and sinus cloggage, I get weepy too. Like it's not enough that it's dripping out my nose, let's go out my eyes, too.

To follow up with the now-infamous shower analogy:
"Why don't you shower? It might reset things and make you feel better"
"I don't think I can stand up that long..."
"Well lean against the wall"
"But but that sounds miserable..."*eyes well up*

[Beautiful sky]

Sometimes when texting with my dual, we'll have a misunderstanding and I'll get uncomfortable, then she'll play it off as if she was just trying to make me uncomfortable. Truth is its a cover up and I yell at her for it. There haven't been any problems since.

I think duals would probably get under one anothers' skin if they're insecure in some regard. Insecurity to me means a deviation from genuine behavior. That's probably why duality is known for removing all the insecurities and being so fucking magical and shit.

That's not a good sign Dj.

[Beautiful sky]

Sometimes when texting with my dual, we'll have a misunderstanding and I'll get uncomfortable, then she'll play it off as if she was just trying to make me uncomfortable. Truth is its a cover up and I yell at her for it. There haven't been any problems since.

I think duals would probably get under one anothers' skin if they're insecure in some regard. Insecurity to me means a deviation from genuine behavior. That's probably why duality is known for removing all the insecurities and being so fucking magical and shit.

That's not a good sign Dj.
Duals have perfect understanding.

[JWC3]

This might be a bit of a weird question... but do the best duals for you know exactly how to get under your skin?

To sort of push you to confront the truth about yourself, even if it's not what you want to hear? And is this some sort of giveaway that said dual is somewhat closer to what you need?

For example, they know when you're BSing, or at least see right through you like no one else? (Maybe this is more of an SLE/IEI duality thing...)

I guess this sort of goes hand in hand with how duals can sometimes be so similar in certain ways as well.


In your experience, were there things that you didn't expect that you needed (even if you knew about duality), or things that you may not have wanted at all beforehand that your dual provided (and you ultimately needed anyways)?

Well I sort of have this uncanny knack for knowing how to piss people off. The good part is I'm never really upset with anyone enough to do it, but usually I can tell right where the psychological pressure points are so to speak at least at a long psychological distance. At a close psychological distance I will flip at the drop of a hat really. It's pretty lame. That being said Niff has pissed me off a few times with the things he's said, unintentionally on his part of course, and so far I've successfully restrained myself.

[wacey]

That's not a good sign Dj.
Duals have perfect understanding.

Are you actually the most sarcastic person in this place, and the joke is on everyone else?

[zomgqwantz]

I actually find that relieving because then we can play and say everything we need to say without saying it. It's like the communication goes to 1000%

[Scapegrace]

That's not a good sign Dj.
Duals have perfect understanding.

This is what real duals look like. <3