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Thread: Is Pedro the Lion ENTJ?

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    Does it matter much? I know a guy that looks almost just like Adam Sandler and he is an ENTP, Sandler himself is supposedly an INTP ... on the other hand Sandler is an entertainer, so maybe he was mistyped as an introvert when he is really an extravert.

    Perhaps maybe people also are making a bigger deal out of this than they really should. E and I are realitive anyways in the shortterm.

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Actually, after reading what transigent said I went and looked up my friend's type and he is actually an ENFP not an ENTP; according to the celebritie types page on the www.socionics.com website Sandler is indeed an INFP ... However, my friend does not have the same goofy smile even though he has a high resemblence to Sandler. So, I guess that sort of proves they are those types.

    I don't think that invalidates what I said necessarily, just faulty detailing. Thanks for pointing that out transgient. I am new to this and am trying to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Loosely, for a "P" person, "I" means they are expressive, and for a "J" person, "E" means they are expressive.
    Ohhh, so you are saying that whether someone is outgoing or not is realitive to whether they are a J or P and not statically affixed to an E or I, that is interesting ...

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    Default Re: Is Pedro the Lion ENTJ?

    [quote="Pedro-the-Lion"]
    @SmilingEyes sure I'd be willing to hear it but I think we should start a new thread/continue it in PM that way we don't abuse ENFP's eyes heh.

    Well thought

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I think what happened with me is the opposite I am an INTJ who was acting like an INTP for a long time under duress from super-ego and and though my type structure hasn't changed (Ti Ne) I use a lot of (Ni Te) out of habit because I associate it with making things easier for me. I am pretty sure of my type because it fits with the intertype relations, my behavior, my "normal" thought process, so on and so forth. But like I said I am open to new ideas so I'm interested let's hear it
    I can theoretically understand a person using 7th function instead of 1st function periodically but I think according to theory a person doesn't understand the 8th function even exists, so that's a bit strange.
    Anyhow... If I understand correctly, you admit using Te and Ni but not being Te Ni or Ni Te? Hmm... I'm not sure how that works.

    Anyhow the reason I started to believe you're an ENTJ was that I have a friend whose talking patterns are a carbon copy of yours and he is an ENTJ, or if I've mistyped him, he is an INTP. We had a mutual ENTP friend who we both rather hated for being a deceitful git. (Actually well... I didn't hate him, I find deceitful gits cute if I know their nature...)

    Anyhow. With this friend of mine, ... let's call him Nick... We at some point agreed that our thought patterns were identical and called ourselves twins. Well... I've changed a bit after that, mainly my spirits are higher now and I joke a bit more. Nick's still pretty much the same.

    So... I saw something ENTJish and started checking your posts for signature traits of Nick and also of my father, who is a Thinking style INTJ as you claim to be. I see nothing of my father in your posts btw. I do with some other people posting here.

    Ok, so I'll start dissecting...

    1. Your title here is "grand poobah"
    Now an INTJ typically says only things he can prove. Can you prove that you indeed are "grand poobah"? I compare this to some other ENTJs I know who call themselves with titles such as: Manwe (main-god from a fantasy pantheon) Demiurge (the gnostic "god"), Angel of Mercy, Dark Mirror of Mankind and The Great Philosopher Bauman. Im sort of seeing a pattern here...

    2. You list in your hobbies: Explaining things
    Explaining things IS Te. Te answers questions of Why and How whereas Ti answers questions like What and Who.

    3. You also list Philosophy. While it's not possible for me to know what kind of philosophy you mean, Ti as primary is not very supporting of philosophy as there are few facts involved. Ti -people tend to be dogmatic, non-bending, stubborn. ENTJ are mystics. I claim to be a jewish-zen-witch. One of my ENTJ friends claim to be an angel of the world spirit. We regularly discuss gnosticism, theosophy, magic, quantum mechanics and all of them intertwined.

    4. You openly talk to people about your feelings. INTJ tend to hide theirs for politeness sake.

    5. You use sarcasm, which is very typical for INTP and ENTJ but not INTJ.

    6. You give people suggestions on how to act. That's rather stereotypical ENTJ-behaviour.

    7. You take up the challenge of proving that you are INTJ. ENTJs love challenges.

    8. You ARE aggressive and not in the way my father is. You are aggressive for fun, not as a defense mechanism.

    9. This quote: "Again I should say I don't think this is wholly conscious... I came to realizations like this after months of actively trying to have an emotional reaction to everything so I could see and analyze what was "really happening inside of me.""
    I can confirm at least 3 of my ENTJ friends plus me having the exact same experience. When I was a kid I shut down all my feelings as a defense mechanism against Fi pressure for 3 yrs. After that it took a long time to get them back and resembling anything normal.

    10. You say you are extremely religious. Do you mean that you have belief? As that's a Ni concept. My father is very religious INTJ and he is entirely dogmatic. Religion is going to the church and having a communal Fi experience for him. He says things like: "When I was young I met a wise priest who said: You should not feel stressed about god. That was good enough for me and I've never been stressed about god." and "We as christians believe that women should be quiet in the church. It says so in the bible."

    11. You say you have many weird beliefs. Isn't that Ni?

    12. "So take my advice with a grain of salt... I am hardly unbiased "
    You implore others not to trust you but to think themselves. INTJ are rather proud of their objectivity because that is their main power.

    13. You are very concerned about ethics. Like it or not rejecting evil is in the values of the gamma, not the alpha.

    14. You've said a couple of times that you are hard on yourself. That would be your Si speaking. Se is hard on others. Gulenko classifies ENTJ as victims. All ENTJ I know have strict moral rules to guide them, they are self-decided rules and as such artificial but very strict. Abe Lincoln, M Luther King, JFK were ENTJ. ENTJ are the willing bloody martyrs of the world and only other EJs come anywhere near at being hard on ourselves.
    (OOh, and Machiavelli too. He too was a community-minded patriot who got tortured for his troubles. FUN! )

    15. The common claim that all ENTJs are constantly happy is just not true. We never give up no matter how bad things go but some of us just get kicked enough that happiness goes away and what stays behind is grim toughness. Happened both to me and Nick.

    16. "But, I will say this don't listen to that crap about needing time INTJs are super easy to emotionally influence if you have the skill (and extraverted feelers usually do). But if you are not sure you want him and you do break up with him be prepared for him to sever all relations with you especially if you manipulate his emotions too much."
    That is just so ENTJ and so not INTJ.

    17." PS: For those of you betraying the brotherhood: You might make a brother very happy, doesn't that count for anything?
    Not really if anything this would be a motivation for me not to help you."

    18. "I'm not sure I should help you because I would be betraying the brotherhood "
    Community feeling is normally associated with gammas. Also, you are using figurative Ni speech again. Oh, and furthermore I've never met an INTJ who is worried about hurting his peers, more likely they are worried about them being hurt by their identicals.

    19. Humoristic overstatements: "I DO NOT apologize!!! Laws are for losers " are stereotypical ENTJ stuff. The classic in our circles is:
    "Everybody over 50 yrs should be killed".

    20. "No this helps a lot. I've been trying to think of ways to rephrase it because when I try to simplify things I think I sound condescending to people like "Ok is that dumb enough for you?" though I don't mean to I just don't know how to distinguish between coming down like a feather vs. blugeoning them with a hammer."

    There was that girl whose clear ENTP smile you called a shit-eating ENTJ smile. The true meaning of the classic ENTJ smile is: " Oh my god, can you be so stupid, please go on, I'm having so much fun I'm going to die."

    21. You claim that Brain from pinky and the brain is ENTJ. ENTJs believe they own the world already. Conquering it would be downright silly. It seems to me that you are heavily influenced by the MBTI false image of ENTJs. which brings us to

    22. Most ENTJs mistype themselves as INTJs whereas most people typed by MBTI as ENTJs are ISTJs or ESTPs. Check Lytovs tables on this.

    23. I myself mistyped every friend of mine along the e/i axis for a few months when I was introduced to socionics. I wouldn't blame anyone else for doing the same.

    24. When talking about Iq, the INFP on board chose you as the one to compare to and admit being less smart than. Could it be because you're his supervisor?

    25. "Sorry, for some reason I have a tendency to try to make people question what they are sure of. Perhaps it is envy because I am never sure of anything?" This would be you admitting that you have no Ti?

    26. "We all dream of a manly woman to dominate us one day " Ok, this seems like a joke, but that's also a freudian slip describing the ENTJ-ISFJ-dual situation as counter-inductive as it seems... (Fully admitting that this is silly as evidence goes)

    27. Then, finally there's the fact that on this board, you're the one taking the lead in most discussions as a natural leader will.

    I'm just quitting here, I'm finding stuff I could put here in about 40% of your posts but there's a lot of those posts

    Your identity pal, Smiley

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    Default Re: Is Pedro the Lion ENTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Ok, so I'll start dissecting...

    ...

    Your identity pal, Smiley
    Hmm... By your descriptions, all I can say is that if Pedro's ENTj, I must be too. Alot of what you listed could apply to me. And alot of it seems very superficial (and I don't mean that insultingly), e.g. item 1 (note my avatar, it's tongue-in-cheek)
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Default Re: Is Pedro the Lion ENTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Ok, so I'll start dissecting...

    ...

    Your identity pal, Smiley
    Hmm... By your descriptions, all I can say is that if Pedro's ENTj, I must be too. Alot of what you listed could apply to me. And alot of it seems very superficial (and I don't mean that insultingly), e.g. item 1 (note my avatar, it's tongue-in-cheek)
    Your avatar is different. It denotes analytical ability, not power as in all the other examples. Also... there's nothing imaginative or daring in that. It's lacking a lot in ENTJ attributes.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Default Re: Is Pedro the Lion ENTJ?

    Oh, sorry. Have to scratch one reason away. I remembered it was

    And everyone goes for flattery. Some just lie that they don't
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Default Re: Is Pedro the Lion ENTJ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    Your avatar is different. It denotes analytical ability, not power as in all the other examples. Also... there's nothing imaginative or daring in that. It's lacking a lot in ENTJ attributes.
    Okay, I'll leave the avatar/title interpretation to you since mentioning it was more of an after-thought on my part.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul
    Smilingeyes, so you are not trying to retype me as well. Thank heavens. I really do think I am an INFJ now, as sure as one can be about anything in socionics... This sort of distant typing based on writing style is inevitably pretty unreliable. People generally like to give a nice impression etc.
    I certainly won't dispute your INFJness.
    You bring to mind my semi-dual first love. If you were a girl I'd ask you for a date.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    "Now an INTJ typically says only things he can prove. Can you prove that you indeed are "grand poobah"? I compare this to some other ENTJs I know who call themselves with titles such as: Manwe (main-god from a fantasy pantheon) Demiurge (the gnostic "god"), Angel of Mercy, Dark Mirror of Mankind and The Great Philosopher Bauman. Im sort of seeing a pattern here..."

    I saw it as him merely making an attempt at some sort of humour.

    "Explaining things IS Te. Te answers questions of Why and How whereas Ti answers questions like What and Who."

    No, I believe Te answers what and who, as Te is the objective thinking function, and thus associates a small amount of subjective ties to an object, whereas Ti shows the interelation between two objects, and shows WHY an object acts as it does.

    "You also list Philosophy. While it's not possible for me to know what kind of philosophy you mean, Ti as primary is not very supporting of philosophy as there are few facts involved. Ti -people tend to be dogmatic, non-bending, stubborn. ENTJ are mystics. I claim to be a jewish-zen-witch. One of my ENTJ friends claim to be an angel of the world spirit. We regularly discuss gnosticism, theosophy, magic, quantum mechanics and all of them intertwined."

    I don't really disagree with you there, exceot that it seems that INTps seem to be the individuals whom are "dogmatic, non-bending, and stubborn." Perhaps it is merely our interelations that cause us to view eachother in such a way?

    "You openly talk to people about your feelings. INTJ tend to hide theirs for politeness sake."

    But this is a message board, don't you think that might change thigns around a bit? And I hardly seem him being openly effusive, nor overtly revealing of his emotions.

    "You use sarcasm, which is very typical for INTP and ENTJ but not INTJ."

    I haven't really noticed that he uses sarcasm, but his jokes usually do seem to shade in an underlying meaning---and therein lies the humour. "Woah, a talking a hotdog!" See?

    "You give people suggestions on how to act. That's rather stereotypical ENTJ-behaviour."

    I haven't really seen this.

    "You take up the challenge of proving that you are INTJ. ENTJs love challenges."

    I think it depends on the talent; my one INTj friend despises physical competition of any sort, but when it comes to intelectual challenges, although he doesn't like to reveal it, he revels in it.

    "You ARE aggressive and not in the way my father is. You are aggressive for fun, not as a defense mechanism."

    He seems to be one of the more restrained individuals on the board, and have you ever seen other message boards? Regardless of type, nearly EVERYONE'S aggressive

    "This quote: "Again I should say I don't think this is wholly conscious... I came to realizations like this after months of actively trying to have an emotional reac
    tion to everything so I could see and analyze what was "really happening inside of me.""

    I can confirm at least 3 of my ENTJ friends plus me having the exact same experience. When I was a kid I shut down all my feelings as a defense mechanism against Fi pressure for 3 yrs. After that it took a long time to get them back and resembling anything normal."

    Are you sure that's not because of the INTj's vaunted desire and ability to remain "objective"?

    You say you are extremely religious. Do you mean that you have belief? As that's a Ni concept. My father is very religious INTJ and he is entirely dogmatic. Religion is going to the church and having a communal Fi experience for him. He says things like: "When I was young I met a wise priest who said: You should not feel stressed about god. That was good enough for me and I've never been stressed about god." and "We as christians believe that women should be quiet in the church. It says so in the bible."

    This is an issue Pedro would have to clarify.

    "You say you have many weird beliefs. Isn't that Ni?"

    It is if you openly share them with others and dogmatically try to propagate them.


    ""So take my advice with a grain of salt... I am hardly unbiased "
    You implore others not to trust you but to think themselves. INTJ are rather proud of their objectivity because that is their main power."

    I view this as an attempt for INTjs to restrain their emotionality and remain objective; besides, I hardly ever see ENTjs taking such a position.

    "You are very concerned about ethics. Like it or not rejecting evil is in the values of the gamma, not the alpha."

    Hardly; the alpha quadra is unable to act on their insights, despite their strong desire to: think of the majority of the democratic party, with their constant waffling.

    "You've said a couple of times that you are hard on yourself. That would be your Si speaking. Se is hard on others. Gulenko classifies ENTJ as victims. All ENTJ I know have strict moral rules to guide them, they are self-decided rules and as such artificial but very strict. Abe Lincoln, M Luther King, JFK were ENTJ. ENTJ are the willing bloody martyrs of the world and only other EJs come anywhere near at being hard on ourselves.
    (OOh, and Machiavelli too. He too was a community-minded patriot who got tortured for his troubles. FUN! )"

    I think it really comes to what issue you're speaking of.

    "The common claim that all ENTJs are constantly happy is just not true. We never give up no matter how bad things go but some of us just get kicked enough that happiness goes away and what stays behind is grim toughness. Happened both to me and Nick."

    This is said with you assuming that him being unhappy-at any point in time-may have caused him to choose his type as INTj-at any point in time.

    ""But, I will say this don't listen to that crap about needing time INTJs are super easy to emotionally influence if you have the skill (and extraverted feelers usually do). But if you are not sure you want him and you do break up with him be prepared for him to sever all relations with you especially if you manipulate his emotions too much."
    That is just so ENTJ and so not INTJ."

    Again, I think he needs to clarify.

    " PS: For those of you betraying the brotherhood: You might make a brother very happy, doesn't that count for anything?
    Not really if anything this would be a motivation for me not to help you."

    Are you trying to correlate this to the ENTJ's strong sense of ethics? But, I thought introverted intuition was the CREATIVE function, which means that introvertedly inuitied principles may apply HERE but not THERE.

    ""I'm not sure I should help you because I would be betraying the brotherhood "
    Community feeling is normally associated with gammas. Also, you are using figurative Ni speech again. Oh, and furthermore I've never met an INTJ who is worried about hurting his peers, more likely they are worried about them being hurt by their identicals."

    I's write that off as humour.

    "Humoristic overstatements: "I DO NOT apologize!!! Laws are for losers " are stereotypical ENTJ stuff. The classic in our circles is:
    "Everybody over 50 yrs should be killed"."

    I need to think more about this.

    ""No this helps a lot. I've been trying to think of ways to rephrase it because when I try to simplify things I think I sound condescending to people like "Ok is that dumb enough for you?" though I don't mean to I just don't know how to distinguish between coming down like a feather vs. blugeoning them with a hammer."

    There was that girl whose clear ENTP smile you called a shit-eating ENTJ smile. The true meaning of the classic ENTJ smile is: " Oh my god, can you be so stupid, please go on, I'm having so much fun I'm going to die.""

    I don't really understand what point you're trying to make with the second part, but I agree with the first.

    "You claim that Brain from pinky and the brain is ENTJ. ENTJs believe they own the world already. Conquering it would be downright silly. It seems to me that you are heavily influenced by the MBTI false image of ENTJs. which brings us to"

    Again, good point, but it is true that the ENTJ would be more "go-getting" then the INTJ, if only for their estimative function being Se, which causes them to have a strong desire to acquire power.

    "Most ENTJs mistype themselves as INTJs whereas most people typed by MBTI as ENTJs are ISTJs or ESTPs. Check Lytovs tables on this."

    Yeah, you're right, but see my above statement.

    "I myself mistyped every friend of mine along the e/i axis for a few months when I was introduced to socionics. I wouldn't blame anyone else for doing the same."

    It is true that identifying an introvert from an extravert is hard, but mistyping in general is a common phenomenon, so there is litte worth in this statement.

    "When talking about Iq, the INFP on board chose you as the one to compare to and admit being less smart than. Could it be because you're his supervisor?"

    Curious Soul answered this one.

    ""Sorry, for some reason I have a tendency to try to make people question what they are sure of. Perhaps it is envy because I am never sure of anything?" This would be you admitting that you have no Ti?

    But aren't ENTjs always sure of what they believe and think?

    " "We all dream of a manly woman to dominate us one day " Ok, this seems like a joke, but that's also a freudian slip describing the ENTJ-ISFJ-dual situation as counter-inductive as it seems... (Fully admitting that this is silly as evidence goes)"

    It cou;d just be a sexual fetish as well.

    "Then, finally there's the fact that on this board, you're the one taking the lead in most discussions as a natural leader will."

    I disagree, though I can't really support my statement with evidence, if only for the fact that I don't feel like searching for it.

    And so begins the long strain of strenous retorts!

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    Shortest Post Ever!

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    Mystic:I saw it as him merely making an attempt at some sort of humour.

    Sure it's humor. It's self-mocking archetypal ENTJ-humor is what it is.
    If you don't recognise it, it sure ain't INTJ.



    Smiley:"Explaining things IS Te. Te answers questions of Why and How whereas Ti answers questions like What and Who."

    Mystic: No, I believe Te answers what and who, as Te is the objective thinking function, and thus associates a small amount of subjective ties to an object, whereas Ti shows the interelation between two objects, and shows WHY an object acts as it does.

    Your mistake. Te studies objects in motion which is requirement for causality. Ti studies qualities of objects and how they differ from each other. It is true that you can find causality mentioned in some lists of what Ti does, but it's simply wrong. Algorithmic logic is what Te is called. That is change of things from one into another. Te are also masters at following the thought patterns of others, you can easily find this information if you bother to read about types. That is the science of understanding why people do things. The Ti relation is not how does this become this but what is the relation between this object and this object and the answer being something like: they are both blue, round, soft and their names begin with p.


    Mystic: I don't really disagree with you there, exceot that it seems that INTps seem to be the individuals whom are "dogmatic, non-bending, and stubborn." Perhaps it is merely our interelations that cause us to view eachother in such a way?

    Uh, you're saying that a person whose primary ability is faith is dogmatic? Can you contradict yourself any worse, please?


    Mystic: But this is a message board, don't you think that might change thigns around a bit? And I hardly seem him being openly effusive, nor overtly revealing of his emotions.

    Please, read some of pedro's posts.

    Mystic: I haven't really noticed that he uses sarcasm, but his jokes usually do seem to shade in an underlying meaning---and therein lies the humour. "Woah, a talking a hotdog!" See?

    Please, read some of pedro's posts.

    Smiley: "You give people suggestions on how to act. That's rather stereotypical ENTJ-behaviour."

    Mystic: I haven't really seen this.

    Please, read some of pedro's posts.

    Mystic: I think it depends on the talent; my one INTj friend despises physical competition of any sort, but when it comes to intelectual challenges, although he doesn't like to reveal it, he revels in it.

    Can you see the difference between the challenge of argument you are having here and the argument this poses for pedro?

    He seems to be one of the more restrained individuals on the board, and have you ever seen other message boards? Regardless of type, nearly EVERYONE'S aggressive

    Please, read some of pedro's posts.


    Mystic: Are you sure that's not because of the INTj's vaunted desire and ability to remain "objective"?

    What pedro was describing was a fond desire to experience emotion. That is the exact opposite of the vaunted INTJ desire.


    "You say you have many weird beliefs. Isn't that Ni?"

    Mystic: It is if you openly share them with others and dogmatically try to propagate them.

    Ni is opposite of dogma. Ni can't even be transmitted from person to person so it can never even theoretically be dogma.



    ""So take my advice with a grain of salt... I am hardly unbiased "
    You implore others not to trust you but to think themselves. INTJ are rather proud of their objectivity because that is their main power."

    Mystic: I view this as an attempt for INTjs to restrain their emotionality and remain objective; besides, I hardly ever see ENTjs taking such a position.

    You can view it as you want but still you're only showing you don't really know what ENTJs are like.


    "You are very concerned about ethics. Like it or not rejecting evil is in the values of the gamma, not the alpha."

    Mystic: Hardly; the alpha quadra is unable to act on their insights, despite their strong desire to: think of the majority of the democratic party, with their constant waffling.

    Check a few places that describe values and ethics of quadras. You will find it stated that gammas are noted for their rejection of evil. Ethics is the Fi/Fe function. INTJ share the same configuration of ethics functions with ISTJs. How good and ethical do you propose Stalin was?
    ENTPs and ESTPs? ESFJs and ENFJs? Simple inability to achieve anything does not raise the moral standard.

    "The common claim that all ENTJs are constantly happy is just not true. We never give up no matter how bad things go but some of us just get kicked enough that happiness goes away and what stays behind is grim toughness. Happened both to me and Nick."

    Mystic: This is said with you assuming that him being unhappy-at any point in time-may have caused him to choose his type as INTj-at any point in time.

    Nope. It's just countering possible arguments that he could not be an ENTJ.


    " PS: For those of you betraying the brotherhood: You might make a brother very happy, doesn't that count for anything?
    Not really if anything this would be a motivation for me not to help you."

    Mystic: Are you trying to correlate this to the ENTJ's strong sense of ethics? But, I thought introverted intuition was the CREATIVE function, which means that introvertedly inuitied principles may apply HERE but not THERE.

    No it does not. You misunderstand Ni. Te-Ni just creates a system of ethics in which one law has more power than another. All apply but some have more worth.

    ""I'm not sure I should help you because I would be betraying the brotherhood "
    Community feeling is normally associated with gammas. Also, you are using figurative Ni speech again. Oh, and furthermore I've never met an INTJ who is worried about hurting his peers, more likely they are worried about them being hurt by their identicals."

    Mystic: I's write that off as humour.

    INTJs never pause to question things such as WHY does a person choose such particular value-loaded words as brotherhood.


    "You claim that Brain from pinky and the brain is ENTJ. ENTJs believe they own the world already. Conquering it would be downright silly. It seems to me that you are heavily influenced by the MBTI false image of ENTJs. which brings us to"

    Mystic:Again, good point, but it is true that the ENTJ would be more "go-getting" then the INTJ, if only for their estimative function being Se, which causes them to have a strong desire to acquire power.

    You seem to misunderstand estimative function as well as completely ignore the position in which INTJs have Se.


    ""Sorry, for some reason I have a tendency to try to make people question what they are sure of. Perhaps it is envy because I am never sure of anything?" This would be you admitting that you have no Ti?

    Mystic: But aren't ENTjs always sure of what they believe and think?

    No. They just know that everyone else is more wrong than they are. What naturally follows is the passing sentence that, hey what do you know, I might be one of the ones that are wrong. What you see there is natural ENTJ speech pattern. INTJs on the other hand try to restrict themselves to saying things that they feel they are certain of.


    " "We all dream of a manly woman to dominate us one day " Ok, this seems like a joke, but that's also a freudian slip describing the ENTJ-ISFJ-dual situation as counter-inductive as it seems... (Fully admitting that this is silly as evidence goes)"

    Mystic: It cou;d just be a sexual fetish as well.

    Uh, so are you saying that a craving for one's dual in the sexual sense is not a fetish? That's just semantics.

    "Then, finally there's the fact that on this board, you're the one taking the lead in most discussions as a natural leader will."

    Mystic:I disagree, though I can't really support my statement with evidence, if only for the fact that I don't feel like searching for it.

    Please, read some of pedro's posts.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    What the hell is this witch hunting! I don't even believe you can accurately type someone over the internet. Too much biases. You need to observe the person in his normal environment and across situations.

    Or am I smelling dirty Devil's Advocate here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I think I am playing Devil's Advocate but I am also trying to accept the information into my brain to see if it makes sense. I'm going to go read some more socionics stuff.
    No I'm not talking about you...

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    I got sloppy towards the end of the post it seems. It was way too late and I felt a bit of a rush and then there's the thing that when you look at someone's profile and check his posts, the quote-marks don't work so it requires double and triple checking who said what.

    Sloppiness is really pretty much the worst trait of EJs I think. It's the constant rush to finish.

    Anyhow. I'm about done now, said my piece and all that. I'd like to believe your theory that you're INTJ since that would prove to me that INTJs can be smart and sane. I'm sceptical about the possibility that simple habituation could reverse ID and EGO so completely that you habitually used your 7th and 8th function but I guess it might be possible. What keeps bugging me about this is that the functions Ti and Ne are absent from your posts. I'd feel that even if you primarily used a mask of your superego and id functions, some ego-stuff would still leak through.

    Anyway, you're clearly thinking about this at least so I feel I did my duty. I hope you'll feel better in the future and get your ego going whatever your type is. Oh, and one more thing we seem to have in common is my mother's and ISFJ as well. I seem to recall you calling the type cold and controlling. Are you sure she wasn't ISTJ? I really can't call any of the ISFJs I've known controllin and cold too seems to apply only in comparison to the fiery blow of emotions that is Fe. Anyhow, clearly I don't know anything about your relations but it seems to me that Functions must be the thing that typing is based on. Otherwise all evidence that is based on relations is actually self-referential and not very trustworthy. The type descriptions too only apply to people who are living a rather normal atraumatic life with full capability to choose one's lifestyle. For example ENTJs are called sloppy and bad dressers and fond of sexual jokes. Nick of whom I've been talking previously dresses in a black power suit and black leather gloves in any weather. And his appearance is always without fault as is his etiquette. He never jokes about anything and a sex joke will only bring forth a disgusted sneer from him. Also, he hates normal ENTJ behaviour. It seems to me that trauma can result in hatred and need to avoid normal behaviour of type.

    Now I won't try to make a final conclusion of your type, since it really isn't my business but I'll name you an honorary ENTJ for your skills in business style speech and completely fooling me

    Best of everything to you

    Smile
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  18. #18
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    I agree and find smart and agreeable pretty much everything you said in your post.

    Only here:


    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro
    Is not Ti the function that deals with noticing contradictions in thought patterns and fining first principles by cross referencing material?
    This I find to be the root of the problem, for Ti is not what you describe. Ni is the function with which one notices contradictions. Te is the function by which one walks through in one's mind sequences ie. thought patterns.

    It is naturally difficult for me to fully describe what Ti does but I will try.
    I find the quintessential Ti achievement to be language itself. Ti creates abstract systems that are arbitrary. Ti simply decides rules and cathegorizes things by the rules. This is why law code is a Ti-Se thing for example and most lawyers are Ti-Se. Most humanist and social sciences are Ti while Te is mathematics, physics and logistics.

    To understand the Ti achievements think about for example the cathegorization of species. Early biologists did not know evolution theory or have a way to describe the mechanisms by which different species were created. They used Ti to notice differences between two objects and MADE_THE_DECISION_ that these things were important. This is important. Ti-Ne creates a system. It decides. Te-Ni reacts to a system that exists. It understands. This is why Ti people are less reactive, stand up for their rights and fight each other whereas Te people react, adapt and outmaneuver.

    You will find that EP-people are the most opportunistic at creating these rules whereas IJ-people stand by what they have once decided. Likewise IP people seem to use a kind of judo-technique of life. They notice the rules other people use and react to them without accepting them, they make critique thus creating better rules. EJ people on the other hand once they see rules that work, they internalize them and follow them as best as they can.

    To point out Ti-Ne achievements... Ti is usually the first to grasp a new area of research because it need little outside information of rules. It creates theories to explain things that people had never thought should have a theory to rule them. Ti-Ne attempts to abstract anything. Sometimes it works and instantly turns the INTJ into a creator of a new science. Often the results are ludicrous such as "cathegorization of different classes of angels" or "the different types of bumps on people's heads". Sometimes the result is cataclysmic and brilliant: something like" the different types of relations that people can have between them" (thus creating socionics.) Because of all these things the INTJ works best at issues that have not been intellectually touched by others. The INTJ needs little outside input to create great systems (great as in large and complex). I will leave the downside of these issues from this post as they should be self-evident.

    Note also how Ti works with things not yet abstracted, like birds, body shapes, minerals whereas Te works with things that are abstractions: x, y, 3, $. This should explain also how the EPs are often the best at selling things. They use Fi and Ti to simply decide a things worth and use Se and Ne to push this decision to others. This should explain the ESTP power of intimidation, why ENFP are reporters, why ESFP rule at politics and why ENTP manage to _look_like_ the smartest people around

    Thus the Te-Ni people need the Ti-Ne people to keep up the social system and give us processed data and systems. At the same time the Te-Ni people feel constantly victimized by the decisions of the Ti-Ne, always being pushed around and having to react.

    As with Te and Ti, the same is true on an emotional level with Fi and Fe. Fi creates a subjective hierarchy of good vs. evil and preferable vs. avoidable. It Decides morals. Fe tries to understand these arbitrary morals and reacts to seeing patterns that work according to these morals in the world. Thus Fe people often use Te-Ni to make notes of ethics in their environment and create moral codes to explain themselves the decisions that Fi people make. Now this codes are not meant to be a law but sometimes they transfer from observed Te-Ni-Fe constructs into decided Ti-Se constructs thus creating religious law and fundamentalism, which rather sucks.

    You may notice an example of this behaviour was posted by Earl this week: his chivalric rules. However, Te-Ni-Fe says "people should" as in making a prognosis that if people do so, things will be good, whereas Ti-Ne-Si decides that people must do so and so.

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    Yeah, and that was obviously me.

    Your friend,

    -Smilex
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    For ENTJs laws are real for INTJs laws are referential.
    Yes. This is true. It is simply another formulation of the thing I just said. The point here is that an ENTJ discovers a law. An INTJ invents it. Thus an ENTJ law is independent of the power of his own will and ability. An INTJ law IS the power, will and ability of the INTJ himself.

    For these reasons ENTJ law tends to be more dictatorial, but the ENTJ himself is not. For to attack an ENTJs law is a joke, it's like saying "I just decided the other day that the Earth is shaped like a banana." The ENTJ finds this hilarious though moronic.

    An INTJ law is not dictatorial but the person is. For an attack on the INTJ law is an attack on the INTJ. If a corporation decides that all memos must be passed through the spell-checker before distributed, that's an INTJ law. There is nothing concrete that stops you from breaking the law, and thus the law itself is not dictatorial, but when you do break the rule, the INTJ boss will punish you.


    Te:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    By this formula are good and evil measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. All is right that corresponds with this formula; all is wrong that contradicts it; and everything that is neutral to it is purely accidental.
    On the case of good and evil, morals, again. The INTJ decides morals. The ENTJ tries to understand morals. Now the case with moral law is very different from the one with natural law as morals can not be proved.

    Let us look at two extreme cases of Fi and Fe: Stalin vs. Hitler. Stalin could make a deal with Hitler since he could decide that communism equals fascism and therefore they have no reason to fight. Hitler could not tolerate Stalin on the other hand even if it wasn't in his interest to attack the Soviet Union for he was required by fascist ethics to be an enemy of Stalin.
    Thus... Fi-Ti is governed by his personal morals and will defend the morals even if facts of a situation are against him. Facts are there only to support the morals.. Ti-Fi is governed by his own personal theory of the world and will not care about morals. Morals are there only to help uphold the abstract system.
    Te-Fe observes how the world actually works, notices that there are people who break the morals constantly and he knows there is nothing he can do about it. He just goes along with the flow and laughs sarcastically at all the immoral bastards of the world. He thinks natural law supercedes moral law.
    Fe-Te observes morals and will pursue them even to the extent of not caring about natural law, or the concrete results of his actions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion

    Also I should note all i functions seem to note contradiction but the difference is in the nature of the objects that the contradictions are observed in. We are getting into a more semantical arguement then a substantial one. All I meant in reference to contradiction is what can be noted here in the description of Introverted thought:
    You have a very good point here. I have to rephrase myself. Ni says: "Only this is possible." "Ne says "everything is possible." As Ti-Ne theorems are invented, they are often in contradiction with each other. For Te-Ni the contradiction must not exist for it observes facts.

    This is also the reason that all Te-Ni of great ability think very much alike for they base their theories on the same facts and observe the same rules around them. This creates the immediate feeling of brotherhood between most ENTJs. We're all following the same rules, we're all on the same quest. The success of one ENTJ anywhere in the world helps every ENTJ of the world.

    In contrast... (quoting my father). "The first thing you have to do in science is specialize. You have to mark your territory and it's borders. Then everybody with a problem in your territory will have to come to you."


    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    On a side note humanists tend to be NF while Ti is used in theorhetical science and Te in applied (experimental) science.
    Humanists, sure, but humanist scientists are mainly Ti. Difference here is that NF tend to have the sentiment but not the analytical power for major humanist scientific works. The reason here is that when we talk about physics and mathematics, you can't just decide theorems. They have to be proved with facts thus always requiring major use of Te.

    There are scientists of nature that use Ti, even a lot of them, but they work in a different way and never really grasp the concepts they are using. My father being for me a prime example of this. (and those INTJ bosses of mine that I've mentioned.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I dunno about you but whenever I finish a post in which I speak with you I feel tired like I'm trying to translate Ti concepts into a Te framework where they just won't fit. Damned epistemology...
    Uh, well, I'm questioning your whole current mental framework for psychology. It'd be pretty damn surprising if that wasn't exhausting

  21. #21
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    And what in the name of Bob always happens to my login????
    Is there a timing on how long one can write a post or something?
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    For these reasons ENTJ law tends to be more dictatorial, but the ENTJ himself is not. For to attack an ENTJs law is a joke, it's like saying "I just decided the other day that the Earth is shaped like a banana." The ENTJ finds this hilarious though moronic.
    That's true. I've worked with quite a bit of ENTJ's. Now, following the biased MBTI perspective that ENTJ's are power-hungry dictators, the prediction would be that several ENTJ's would never be able to work together because they would have power struggles - Who would lead?

    This prediction is wrong. In my experience, work has never gone as smoothly as when working with other ENTJ's. We make the laws together. Who cares which person came up with them?! The importance is doing things Right. We really haven't got the time for stupid personal considerations and ego battles about who's in charge or has the last word. What is True is True, whoever came up with it.

    This is also the reason that all Te-Ni of great ability think very much alike for they base their theories on the same facts and observe the same rules around them. This creates the immediate feeling of brotherhood between most ENTJs. We're all following the same rules, we're all on the same quest. The success of one ENTJ anywhere in the world helps every ENTJ of the world.
    Oh that's really true. This brotherhood feeling you are talking about is immediate upon the encounter of another ENTJ. Communication is so easy and quick. And we are all following the same rules. The ENTJ's I know are amongst the most ethical, honest, integer and straightforward people I know. I would trust them for anything. They are the type of people who stand up for what is right regardless of what others think.

    Whenever an ENTJ succeeds in the world, it helps all ENTJ's cause in making Right, Order and Justice
    ENTj - intuitive subtype - 8w9, sp/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eidos


    Whenever an ENTJ succeeds in the world, it helps all ENTJ's cause in making Right, Order and Justice
    Word! Power to the brotherhood! Peace with ya
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    And what in the name of Bob always happens to my login???? Shocked
    Is there a timing on how long one can write a post or something?
    Please join the initiative "Disabling Guest access" at http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=398
    http://forum.socionix.com

    I don't see what's so important about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. It's just more people to declare war on.

    EVERYONE PLZ CONTINUE TO UPLOAD INFINITE AMOUNT OF PICS OF "CUTE" CATS AND PUPPIES. YOU KNOW WE GIVE A SHIT!!

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    Yeah, that guest login is annoying ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilingeyes
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    On a side note humanists tend to be NF while Ti is used in theorhetical science and Te in applied (experimental) science.
    Humanists, sure, but humanist scientists are mainly Ti. Difference here is that NF tend to have the sentiment but not the analytical power for major humanist scientific works. The reason here is that when we talk about physics and mathematics, you can't just decide theorems. They have to be proved with facts thus always requiring major use of Te.

    There are scientists of nature that use Ti, even a lot of them, but they work in a different way and never really grasp the concepts they are using. My father being for me a prime example of this. (and those INTJ bosses of mine that I've mentioned.)
    In my, pretty limited, experience most professors and faculty in humanities as well, tends to be NT, surprisingly many ENTJs and INTPs actually. Why this is the case is hard to say, but I would guess that in many disciplines the kind of research that, at least in Finland, gets favorable peer review and merit points tends to be mainly Te stuff, "objective logic". The students are often NFs, but you do find pretty much all the types. I think it is not so much about F-types having objectively weaker analytical skills, but rather more to do with constantly "loading" and taking criticism on the Superego functions being rather burdensome and unpleasant. F-types are usually not that drawn to research, ENFPs though probably more than other ethical types. Reliability of my claims somewhat dubious.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I think he was refering more to how the philosophical undergirdings of it are Ti-Fi.
    Yes, but what I meant was exactly that the philosophical underpinnings of many fields of humanities are to surprisingly large extent, Te rather than Ti. The difference between humanities and "proper" science is generally not as large as is often thought. For example consider the founder of the "science of history" Leopold von Ranke. This is all very much a Te approach rather than Ti, to describe the world as it was and not to go just postulating how things should be, in essence one could say that he defined history as an "ENTJ-brotherhood project".


    This important, very effective and for that very reason controversial historian was given titles such as 'The greatest German historian', 'The father of the objective writing of history', and 'The founder of the science of history'. The authoritative criticism of sources which he mainly developed is still valid today as a method of working in history, even if he did limit himself to official documents and with this the perspective of those in power, which has since been expanded critically to include, for example, social and cultural sources and lines of questioning.

    Numerous weighty publications on the 100th anniversary of his death in 1986 cover the unbroken desire for debate on the individuals’ thoughts during the Romantic period which he transferred to the world of politics, and the relative worth contained within it. As maxim for the historicism represented by him, Ranke formulated his view in an incontrovertible way: ‘From the particular, one can carefully and boldly move up to the general; from general theories, there is no way of looking at the particular.’ With individuality as the aim of discovery of the ‘godly ideas’ in the world of intellectuals, and objectivity as the task of the historian, Ranke educated his students with particular fondness on the basis of medieval sources, whilst his own writings concerned themselves exclusively with the modern period. Even in his first work in 1824, he wrote provocatively that he did not want to judge the past, but simply wanted to show how it was, provocatively because with this he was turning against the current interests of the ideas of enlightenment, but at the same time he tried to do no less than to explain the idea of World History.

    http://www.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/g...xte/rankee.htm

    Just compare what Smilingeyes wrote about the differences between Te and Ti:

    Quote Originally Posted by smilingeyes
    I have to rephrase myself. Ni says: "Only this is possible." "Ne says "everything is possible." As Ti-Ne theorems are invented, they are often in contradiction with each other. For Te-Ni the contradiction must not exist for it observes facts.

    This is also the reason that all Te-Ni of great ability think very much alike for they base their theories on the same facts and observe the same rules around them. This creates the immediate feeling of brotherhood between most ENTJs. We're all following the same rules, we're all on the same quest.


    --------------------------------------------------------------


    It is naturally difficult for me to fully describe what Ti does but I will try.

    I find the quintessential Ti achievement to be language itself. Ti creates abstract systems that are arbitrary. Ti simply decides rules and cathegorizes things by the rules. This is why law code is a Ti-Se thing for example and most lawyers are Ti-Se. Most humanist and social sciences are Ti while Te is mathematics, physics and logistics. (Here I beg to disagree. )

    To understand the Ti achievements think about for example the cathegorization of species. Early biologists did not know evolution theory or have a way to describe the mechanisms by which different species were created. They used Ti to notice differences between two objects and MADE_THE_DECISION_ that these things were important. This is important. Ti-Ne creates a system. It decides. Te-Ni reacts to a system that exists. It understands. This is why Ti people are less reactive, stand up for their rights and fight each other whereas Te people react, adapt and outmaneuver

    Of course these days scientists are better aware that true objectivity in humanities is often pretty limited and illusionary, thus the rise of postmodernism and other movements:

    Postmodernism therefore has an obvious distrust toward claims about truth, ethics, or beauty being rooted in anything other than individual perception and group construction. Utopian ideals of universally applicable truths or aesthetics give way to provisional, decentered, local petit recits which, rather than referencing an underlying universal truth or aesthetic, point only to other ideas and cultural artifacts, themselves subject to interpretation and re-interpretation. The "truth", since it can only be understood by all of its connections is perpetually "deferred", never reaching a point of fixed knowledge which can be called "the truth." This emphasis on construction and consensus is often used to attack science, as the Sokal Affair shows.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism
    (I quite like Wikipedia, you usually get a pretty neutral introduction to the basics.)

    What I was trying to say was that the pendulum has swung from more subjective postmoderdnist Fi-Ti approach clearly back towards more objective Te-(Fe?) preference. At least in Finland today proving even a minor point correct by objective undeniable standards is generally far more likely to get you a tenure track position than postulating promising, potentially groundbreaking, but unprovable theories. Thus socionics cannot be proven correct and western psychology does not touch it.

    Similarly philosophy is often considered Ti subject rather than Te, but in practise Finnish academic philosophy has been dominated by logical empiricism, and if you want to land a job as a professor of philosophy, proving even a minor theorem of formal logic correct once and for all is far more helpful in getting you there than any amount of "pomobabble" you can generate. The downside is that much of the Te research is certainly correct, but often also appears largely trivial and disconnected.
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


  28. #28
    Creepy-Hart

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    Guest wrote:
    This is why law code is a Ti-Se thing for example and most lawyers are Ti-Se. Most humanist and social sciences are Ti while Te is mathematics, physics and logistics.
    You have no idea what you are talking about. I attend a first tier law school in the US and the majority of my classmates are INTj's followed by a smaller number of ENTp's and even fewer INTp's and ENTj's. The remaining 5 percent or so are of various other types.

    Law school consists of reading very difficult texts and interpreting and undestanding the various implications of the cases with respect to a larger picture. While any type could theoretically do this, it is mainly INTj and ENTp types that are drawn to law school as they possess the natural attributes to succeed in this type of academic environment. Take a look at the LSAT. It tests these exact attributes; ones that intuitive thinkers not sensory thinkers generally possess

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    "Personally I hate the legal system though I think it has been a perverion of justice for several centuries now and has spread it's legs wide like a whore for the economic implications behind so many legal proceedings."

    I couldn't have said it better myself. ::tear::

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hart
    You have no idea what you are talking about. I attend a first tier law school in the US and the majority of my classmates are INTj's followed by a smaller number of ENTp's and even fewer INTp's and ENTj's. The remaining 5 percent or so are of various other types.
    Might be that you see lot's of ENTPs and INTJs there. Still, I've seen statistics in which most lawyers were typed ISTJ or INTJ. Yet, my actual point with calling law a Ti-Se concept is this.
    Ti means: I decide.
    Se means: You react.
    Thus when a law book states how people must act it is by it's very nature a Ti-Se concept no matter who the person reading it is.

    You make very quick decisions without thinking very much, my friend.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Delta sleep is what the brain craves to restore itself from the previous day's activity.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    <3
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    sloan - rcuei

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    huh?
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    ENTj seems unlikley, but I don't *know* that he's Alpha
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Pedro is INTj and everything that it implies.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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