Ne/Si vs Se/Ni, Two Ships Example

[Creepy-Snaps]

Hi everyone. I've been wanting to do an explanation of the information elements for some time, to clear up some misunderstanding, and also to help new people on the forum grasp what they represent, in modern-day non-Russian lingo. I've been studying socionics for over a year now, and can provide some insight which not only helped me understand the elements better, but teach it in a way, from an ESFj's sensory perspective, which should make practical sense to you. Without further ado:

Ne/Si and Se/Ni represent the 4 information-gathering, perception elements:

Si: Having a sense of what will work out long-term, how easy/hard or comfortable/uncomfortable something will be, whether something will be sustainable or not.
Ne: Seeing potential opportunities, connections, brainstorming ideas, generating possibilities.

Ne has difficulty evaluating their own ideas, and has trouble differentiating which ideas would be good or not long-term (ENXps have a tendency to go through many career changes). Si is terrific at evaluating ideas, figuring how they will play out, but has trouble generating possibilities on its own, and without Ne can get stuck in a rut, staying with something they know will not work.

Se: Wanting to change what will work out long-term, rather than using Si+Ne to navigate strategies throughout life, Se wishes to bend life to its own will. Having a sense of power, control, evaluating one's own abilities to make a tangible difference in the world.
Ni: Evaluating what changes would be good. Foreseeing change before-hand and afterward, the 'big picture', and differentiating which ideas would be useful or not. If Ne is idea-generation and brainstorming, Ni is understand the essence and origin of ideas, and their importance.

Ni also provides conceptual time management. Since Se wants to enact change in the world, using force to change things, it has the power to change everything, but is limited by time. Se desires to know where it should act, where it should be focusing its energy on, which is where Ni comes in.

Two ships are out at sea, sailing north, trying to reach a cave filled with treasure. In the horizon appear dark, forboding clouds, and the wind picks up as the waves begin to rock. The two ships, Ne+Si ship and the Se+Ni ship, have different perspectives in this scenario.

Si says to Ne, "Keeping along this way will be very harsh. We risk sailing directly into the storm, and might lose valuable men, food, and other resources. What else can we do?"
Ne responds, "We could sail east and dock for the night, or we could go west and try to avoid the storm, or we could have men ready to row on the sides of the ship, if the storm gets too harsh. Which do you think we should do?"
Si answers, "Let's sail east and dock for the night, so everyone will be fully rested for tomorrow. We can avoid the storm, keep all our resources, and still make decent time reaching the cave."

Now, how might the Se+Ni ship view this scenario?

Se says to Ni, "We can make it through this storm if we want to. We might lose some resources, but our ship is more powerful than it, and we can conquer it and get past it. Do you think we should fight it out?"
Ni responds, "Be careful, but yes, if we can continue along this path and stay with our original plan, we will be the first ship to reach the cave, and we will reach the treasure first. Spending energy here will definitely be worth it."
Se yells, "Men, set sail NORTH! We will overcome this storm!"

The Se+Ni cave outlast the storm, but lose half, 50%, of their men in the struggle. They are the first ship to reach the cave, and are able to secure most of the treasure, tiredly load it back on the ship, and take it back home.

The Ne+Si ship arrive at the cave second, and are only able to collect half, 50%, of the treasure, compared to the first ship. However, they are able to keep all their men, food, and other resources.

Both Si and Se think that their way was best.

Si says, 'Long-term, we were able to keep all our trained men, overcome this difficulty, in a way which was fairly easy, and we can sustain this voyage easily in the future. We can sail again quickly since our men are still rested.'

Se says, 'We were able to triumph over the storm, and not let it get the best of us. Now that we have proven our resilience, we can hire even more men back at home, have a bigger crew than before, train them easily with all of our extra gold, and continue in our conquest.'

Also note, without Ne or Ni, both ships could have sunk.

Without Ne, Si would not know it could sail east, but would have stayed sailing steadily into the storm, without perseverence, focusing on the discomfort, morale would have dropped, and they would die.

Without Ni, Se would not be certain that it should stick it out, that it would be worth it in the long-term to reach the cave first. It might have faltered its view to sail north, succumbed to the opinions of its men to sail back, and not have committed all of its energy into the right tactics, and would have died.

I'll end this post here. Thank you for reading! Now you should have a better understanding of the tricky perception elements.

- MD, aka Greg

[Mediator Kam]

I am on my iPod now, but this is wonderful. The analogy is wonderful and I really resonate with the Si/Ne description. Good work!!!!!

[Creepy-Snaps]

Thank you.

[WVBRY]

Good job, MD. I liked this description.

On a side note, Id also like to point out that its funny that the Se/Ni crew is richer than the Si/Ne one since they have less people to distribute the treasure to.

[Beautiful sky]

You really took all this time to put all this thought into this topic?

[Satan]

Ne/Si don't get half of the treasure they get none of it. You're pretty deluded.

[Creepy-female]

Good job MD, this is really decent

[lemontrees]

Yeah, the Se/Ni would have lugged it all away! More likely, the Si/Ne reached the island safely, saw that there was wild boar and free-growing marijuana, and spend all their time enjoying eating roast pigs and getting high, and are still happy. Hahahaha.

In all seriousness though: although I do believe that part of the analogy doesn't hold up, I think that Se/Ni are more likely to see one "goal" whereas Si/Ne are more likely to discover alternate possibilities of (smaller amounts of) success that don't involve fighting others to get to the treasure first.

[MisterNi]

Good example Mountain Dew!

Although your story is too happy ending-like. There should probably be several ships sailing for the same destination and several Se/Ni ships try to brave the storm and only a few of the ships survive the storm and the Ne/Si ships either cooperating for mutual benefit or finding that the treasure being competed over isn't really that valuable and go off to find new treasure instead.

[Suz]

I am on my iPod now, but this is wonderful. The analogy is wonderful and I really resonate with the Si/Ne description. Good work!!!!!

i second this.

[Suz]

Ne/Si don't get half of the treasure they get none of it. You're pretty deluded.

A human being's life spared is worth exponentially more than that silly treasure. Can find another material treasure at some other point when it's less risky.

[MisterNi]

A human being's life spared is worth exponentially more than that silly treasure. Can find another material treasure at some other point when it's less risky.

What makes you think that death in this case means a loss of physical life?

[Uncertainty]

For some reason I feel like this paints the portrait of Ne/Si as humanitarian and Se/Ni as materialistic. But I'm only scrutinizing the finer points.

[Suz]

What makes you think that death in this case means a loss of physical life?

well if you put it that way... what's so great about making someone lose their spiritual or emotional life then? That's not much better...in my view anyway.

[Uncertainty]

well if you put it that way... what's so great about making someone lose their spiritual or emotional life then? That's not much better...in my view anyway.

Perhaps that's what he was getting at. If I understood correctly, there's something to be said about weathering the storm - hardship that catalyzes the growth of the emotional/spiritual self, which Ne/Si chooses to avoid (in this case).

And, if I didn't understand correctly, I still think it's valid

[DividedsGhost]

I don't think this makes conceptual sense. Ni is another kind of introverted pattern-matching process, one that leads to indecision if it gets bogged down into too many paradoxes or seemingly-unsolvable problems/patterns. But its focus is to avoid, triumph, or completely solve past mistakes and problems/patterns. Ni isn't about deciding what should be sacrificed for Se. If anything, imo, such a rationalization belongs to a rational function.

Also, what you describe as Si sounds a lot more like Te. You're explaining the situation, what needs to be done, and why. There's no introversion going on with that. Jung's Si is introverted (and thus has a personal nature to whomever is using it) and more about seeing the immediate surroundings as objects flowing around each other and adjusting to them as they change. Getting a feeling as the atmosphere changes and directing yourself with those changes is much more related to Si. It's about taking the immediate world as an instinct and reacting to it.

For example, an SLI might be good at sports that require the ability to discern quick changes and react to them well. This might include racing, tennis, first person shooters, etc. An ESE might be highly attuned to how variations in the environment affect themselves and other people and react (extrovert) according to that. An SXE might be good at sports or jobs that are more tactical in nature; this is more about initiative in immediately seeing and taking advantage of current situations that to some is the same as having a strong will.

No offense and I doubt most even read my posts, but your understanding seems really biased to me. It's worth considering.

[DividedsGhost]

From http://www.voidspace.org.uk/psycholo...l_types.shtml:

7. The Healthy Extraverted Sensation Type

No other human type can equal the extraverted sensation-type in realism. His sense for objective facts is extraordinarily developed. His life is an accumulation of actual experience with concrete objects, and the more pronounced he is, the less use does he make of his experience. In certain cases the events of his life hardly deserve [p. 458] the name 'experience'. He knows no better use for this sensed 'experience' than to make it serve as a guide to fresh sensations; anything in the least 'new' that comes within his circle of interest is forthwith turned to a sensational account and is made to serve this end. In so far as one is disposed to regard a highly developed sense for sheer actuality as very reasonable, will such men be esteemed rational. In reality, however, this is by no means the case, since they are equally subject to the sensation of irrational, chance happenings, as they are to rational behaviour.

And please understand, this is Jung explaining Se, NOT Ne or Si. This is also how it can come off tactical.

Upon the lower levels this is the man of tangible reality, with little tendency either for reflection or commanding purpose. To sense the object, to have and if possible to enjoy sensations, is his constant motive. He is by no means unlovable; on the contrary, he frequently has a charming and lively capacity for enjoyment; he is sometimes a jolly fellow, and often a refined æsthete.

To experience the world is his constant motive.

In the former case, the great problems of life hinge upon a good or indifferent dinner; in the latter, they are questions of good taste. When he 'senses', everything essential has been said and done. Nothing can be more than concrete and actual; conjectures that transcend or go beyond the concrete are only permitted on condition that they enhance sensation. This need not be in any way a pleasurable reinforcement, since this type is not a common voluptuary; he merely desires the strongest sensation, and this, by his very nature, he can receive only from without. What comes from within seems to him morbid and objectionable. In so far as lie thinks and feels, he always reduces down to objective foundations, i.e. to influences coming from the object, quite unperturbed by the most violent departures from logic. Tangible reality, under any conditions, makes him breathe again. In this respect he is unexpectedly credulous. He will, without hesitation, relate an obvious psychogenic symptom to the falling barometer, while the existence of a psychic conflict seems to him a fantastic abnormality. His love is incontestably rooted in the manifest attractions of the object. In so far as he is normal, he is conspicuously adjusted to positive reality -- conspicuously, because his adjustment is always visible. His ideal is the actual; in this respect he is considerate. He has no ideals related to ideas -- he has, therefore, no sort of ground for maintaining a hostile attitude towards the reality of things and facts. This expresses itself in all the externals of his life. He dresses well, according to his circumstances ; he keeps a good table for his friends, who are either made comfortable or at least given to understand that his fastidious taste is obliged to impose certain claims upon his entourage. He even convinces one that certain sacrifices are decidedly worth while for the sake of style.

It's completely contradictory to what socionics says is Se. Actually socionics seems to only use the negative expression of Se and doesn't do it for all the other functions, especially when it comes to ALPHA QUADRA - GO FIGURE.

Unhealthy Se:

But the more sensation predominates, so that the [p. 460] sensing subject disappears behind the sensation, the more unsatisfactory does this type become. Either he develops into a crude pleasure-seeker or he becomes an unscrupulous, designing sybarite. Although the object is entirely indispensable to him, yet, as something existing in and through itself, it is none the less depreciated. It is ruthlessly violated and essentially ignored, since now its sole use is to stimulate sensation. The hold upon the object is pushed to the utmost limit. The unconscious is, accordingly, forced out of its me[accent]tier as a compensatory function and driven into open opposition. But, above all, the repressed intuitions begin to assert themselves in the form of projections upon the object. The strangest conjectures arise; in the case of a sexual object, jealous phantasies and anxiety-states play a great role. More acute cases develop every sort of phobia, and especially compulsive symptoms. The pathological contents have a remarkable air of unreality, with a frequent moral or religious colouring. A pettifogging captiousness often develops, or an absurdly scrupulous morality coupled with a primitive, superstitious and 'magical' religiosity, harking back to abstruse rites. All these things have their source in the repressed inferior functions, which, in such cases, stand in harsh opposition to the conscious standpoint; they wear, in fact, an aspect that is all the more striking because they appear to rest upon the most absurd suppositions, in complete contrast to the conscious sense of reality. The whole culture of thought and feeling seems, in this second personality, to be twisted into a morbid primitiveness; reason is hair-splitting sophistry -- morality is dreary moralizing and palpable Pharisaism -- religion is absurd superstition -- intuition, the noblest of human gifts, is a mere personal subtlety, a sniffing into every corner; instead of searching the horizon, it recedes to the narrowest gauge of human meanness. [p. 461]

[Beautiful sky]

Reading Jung is like having my liver removed...slowly...very slowly
But, I did it more than a few times.

[Satan]

A human being's life spared is worth exponentially more than that silly treasure. Can find another material treasure at some other point when it's less risky.

Only if you're still alive. Life is finite. You never know when it's going to end. You could get hit by a bus tommorow.

In economics there's this concept called opportunity cost, it measures the sacrifice of picking one option, like if you're a porn star and you don't get breast implants then you may lose $10,000 a year.

For every inaction there can be a cost. And sometimes life can be a balancing act. But what does tend to hold true is that people who never take risks don't become successful.

And there can be extra costs to not taking risks too.

Say you're thinking about buying a house, and you choose not to take the risk. Then house prices go up - and now you can't afford to buy a house. You could say that you couldn't handle paying off the repayments on the house you already had and try and mask the loss you've suffered by inaction, or you could decide that next time you are in a "right" situation, you do the "right" action. And if the shit hits the fan - you can always sell out.

Also how do you know a life is going to be spared? Is it just a hunch? What if you're wrong? What if you're the only one going after the treasure. And while you're deciding what to do someone could always take the treasure.

Carpe diem.

[DividedsGhost]

Unbeknownst to the Si/Ne crew, one of their group is a psychopathic murderer. He kills them all in their sleep, then shoots himself.

The psychopathic murderer on the Se/Ni ship died in the storm

Like a Josef Mengele, perhaps?

Edit: Someone should think of a famous killer that killed people and then committed suicide. This will be awesome.

[Jonathan]

Si: Having a sense of what will work out long-term, how easy/hard or comfortable/uncomfortable something will be, whether something will be sustainable or not. .... Si says to Ne, "Keeping along this way will be very harsh. We risk sailing directly into the storm, and might lose valuable men, food, and other resources. What else can we do?"

This is close to how Augusta describes Ni. Classically, Ni is associated with considering long-term dangers. However, to your credit, maybe Augusta is wrong. Surely, there are many variants, and Si-ego people aren't necessarily oblivious to long-term considerations. What you've done is sort of mix thinking about the long term with some stereotypical Si concerns. ...sort of a mixture of some themes typically associated with Ni with other themes typically associated with Si

Ne has difficulty evaluating their own ideas, and has trouble differentiating which ideas would be good or not long-term

People with Ne in their ego block also have a judging function; theoretically, they should be able to evaluate their ideas. For example, Ti can help one determine whether an idea is sound. However, the insights they get from their judging function will naturally be different from what they get from their dual.

Ni: Evaluating what changes would be good. Foreseeing change before-hand and afterward, the 'big picture', and differentiating which ideas would be useful or not.

This is a fairly common theme on this forum...viewing Ni as a form of judgment. Theoretically, it should be Ti, Te, Fi, and Fe that help people evaluate perceptual inputs and make decisions to accept or reject. Of course what changes "would be good" is somewhat vague...."would be good" from what standpoint? When I read that, something like Fi comes to mind, but perhaps you're thinking about something completely different.

Another fairly common theme on this forum, represented in the OP, is to view Ni as evaluating the usefulness or practicality of ideas. This seems to be an inversion between N and S.

Ni also provides conceptual time management.

Equating Ni with time management is often viewed as a misconception, or a misreading of Augusta's association if Ni with time. Nevertheless, this and the other comments may make sense when viewing Ni as "judging" in an MBTI sense.

[The Ineffable]

While I find the Ne/Si couple fine, I think the Ni/Se are grossly misrepresented. First of all, Se does not mean imposing one's force, but using the existing forces, which may include oneself - but only when the subject presents a force. People forget that Se valuers described as more often trying positions of authority OR complying to it (authority) naturally [1]. If I reflect over the validity of the saying "the boss is always right" (assuming an authoritarian one, of course), I obtain two positions equally right but opposite and contradictory:
- from a pragmatic short-range POV that is true;
- from an idealistic long-range POV it is false.
But then again, acknowledging the pragmatic utility of using powers doesn't necessarily make you power-hungry, but realistic. People adhere to either one or another POV depending on their upbringing, circumstances, interests, nevertheless they portray the kind of (opposite) focuses the two Pe functions have.
---

[1] - Rationality affects that too.

[The Ineffable]

Although I would normally address Rational/Irrational separately [1], I try to describe it in my view the interaction between Se and Ni: Se would tell Ni either that they can do that, in case they have strong reasons to believe the boat is actually very strong, OR that they can't do that, for the same reasons (boat is too weak or the storm too powerful) [2]. But the Ni compensates that and being focused on the flow of events (instead of strength, which is not everything, although using the Se information), it can either easily figuring out how things could go wrong in the first case (taking measures, planning), or how obstacles can be surpassed by wise timed decisions.

Dynamic information deals with methods and actions (and their successions). To exemplify the Ni perception on this aspect in opposition to Si, I remind you that myth that a ninja can find in any circumstance 10 ways to kill you. The Ni cognition of causality is always open-ended, it can never say never. Ask in private Ni types, then as Si types about it and see how I am right in most cases [3].
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[1] - any IE forms different attitudes over that, in this case I see them quite different: while Ni-Creatives are daredevils, Ni-Base play rather the cautious role.
[2] - I often hear Se types saying "that's impossible, stop dreaming".
[3] - I haven't tried yet except on my gf, as the idea just occured to me, but I'm quite sure about it .

[Aquagraph]

Is this a challenge? Very well.

Well gather the crew in six months.

Agarina has personally vowed to become my navigator at the time of need. Also I wouldn't mind a SEI cook or twelve.
LSE boatswain, SLI cooper since delta STs are good at boring stuff anyway.
Labocat would be the ship doctor equipped with a rusty saw and a disturbing sense of professional enthusiasm.
FoxOnStilts and Galen would be the Master Gunners. I want my enemy to know that from the point the bombardment begins to the point when their boat is sinking, it was the chick and the fag who did it.
I also want Radio to hang around there for no particular reason.

[strangeling]

Labocat would be the ship doctor equipped with a rusty saw and a disturbing sense of professional enthusiasm.

Zoidberg meets Saw.

[Pookie]

I'd be throwing my money on the Decisive Quadra's. Just saying.

[Pa3s]

I also want Radio to hang around there for no particular reason.

lol

[Aquagraph]

I'd be throwing my money on the Decisive Quadra's. Just saying.

Me too. But I think it can get Judicious Quadras can have a bigger surprise element. In good and bad.

[The Ineffable]

Cheers Archon! I found some ambiguous thing when I reviewed what I wrote:

Dynamic information deals with methods and actions (and their successions). To exemplify the Ni perception on this aspect in opposition to Si, I remind you that myth that a ninja can find in any circumstance 10 ways to kill you. The Ni cognition of causality is always open-ended, it can never say never. Ask in private Ni types, then as Si types about it and see how I am right in most cases [3].

But not exclusively with actions, in my view. I should not be misread, I suggest no such equivalence. Dynamic information is synthetic reasoning, tells something new about something (object(s) or ideas), unlike Static which is either the objects themselves (Identity, Pe) or their understanding - structure/relationships (Ji). The perception of processes and actions is a subset of the Dynamic cognition.

A static fact is still dynamic, literally (implying Dynamic, too), it is an action, an event in time, in real experience - "my lighter is on the small table" = "I performed the action of seeing that my lighter is on the small table". (to continue...)

The Static unconscious (Id, Super-Id) is neglected though assumed by a Dynamic Mental - no synthetic proposition can be said about a subject ("subject" as in grammar) that has no identity or properties, the subject would not exist, would not be conceived.

(... continuing here: Conversely, ) strictly the identification of an object is not Dynamic, not an event. It is timeless, any sort of action is unapplicable. Although in reality someone makes an observation to identify, which is an action, the event is absolutely irrelevant and mentally ignored. The Vital information is for the Mental like water off a duck's back, they can't be mixed, this is why one is necessarily unconscious at any moment.
"I saw John" - it can be interpreted either Dyamically ("I actually saw him", "he was there") - the Static identification of "John" ignored - or Statically ("it was actualy John") - the Dynamic action of seeing the person ignored/irrelevant.
---

Relations are properties that are shared by two or more objects. Even subjective and baseless associations are properties - for example the relationship between sport and non-smoking is the idea of healthy, or rather the feeling of "healthy-non-smoking-sportiness" - sport and smoking is better than no sport and smoking, though some people [1] entirely reject the idea because of this subjective incompatibility.
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[1] - I think Accepting Fi - aka Rationals - are more inclined to view it like that.