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Thread: Type relation and logic

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Type relation and logic

    "It's not type-related"
    FUCK YOU.

    Almost everything is type-related. If you say that X is not type-related, you're saying that every type has the exact same possibility to have a X as a trait. Un-fucking-believable.


    Here, some stupid examples:
    Having HIV:
    extroversion > introversion
    Fe valuing > Fi valuing

    IQ/mathematical intelligence:
    Logical funtion dominant > Any other
    Any other > Ti PoLR

    Being an asshole:
    Fi PoLR > Any other

    Feel free to use this thread as a place to post stupid type correlation theories.
    Last edited by Aquagraph; 11-24-2011 at 06:29 PM.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I'd say having AIDS is more related to living in Africa
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Socionics is a model of information processing within the human mind. However the human mind is just one system within many other systems, environmental systems, physical systems, and is limited and enabled by these systems.

    There are many systems that interact to produce a individuals behavior and various unknowns which require analyzing the situation at hand. It's like the difference between taking a corvette engine and using it as a meat grinder vs using it to power a car. Results are varied.

    http://jalopnik.com/5090926/top-gear-builds-corvette-engine+powered-blender

    I've found Socionics(along with the use of experience and education in other fields of study) can be pretty precise at making behavior predictions when enough pertain-ant variables within a system of interactions are know.

    A lot of times socionics doesn't deal with with whether or not X happens, but how X happens.

    Like how did a -polr become a world renowned chef, how did a based become a world renown chef, how did a base become a world renown chef, how did a base become a world renown chef. What are their management skills? How do they interact with their superiors and helpers, what kinda of drugs are they doing to stay sane during a 12 hour work day?

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    Creepy-Snaps

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    "It's not type-related"
    FUCK YOU.

    Almost everything is type-related. If you say that X is not type-related, you're saying that every type has the exact same possibility to have a X as a trait. Un-fucking-believable.


    Here, examples:
    Having HIV:
    extroversion > introversion
    Fe valuing > Fi valuing

    IQ/mathematical intelligence:
    Logical funtion dominant > Any other
    Any other > Ti PoLR

    Being an asshole:
    Fi PoLR > Any other

    If you say anything else, I''l type you as some PoLR type.

    Feel free to use this thread as a place to post stupid type correlation theories.
    I've always been exceptional in mathematics, despite being an ethical personality type. Graduated #3 in my high school class, in university, first 2 years with a 3.9, picked up a Calculus class as a GPA booster, , something I hear like 1% of people do haha. Math comes easy to me.

    Not sure if I'm an anomoly in that regard or not, but I would be EXTREMELY careful in making general assumptions about types, ESPECIALLY when you have no physical, concrete statistics or proof to base it on.

    I'd like to think everything can be explained mathematically, this type is like this, or that type is like that, but I disagree with the general direction of this thread. Sometimes things just aren't type related, and are general among people. I view socionics as being one factor of the equation of human personality, but not the be-all end-all explanation.

    That being said, Aquagraph, I'm glad you're thinking about things like this. I see posts like this, sometimes by Logical types, after 1-2 years of studying socionics. It seems like you're growing continually in your knowledge and understanding, in just half a year, and I look forward to seeing more interesting topics from you in the future.

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    Trevor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Having HIV:
    Fe valuing > Fi valuing
    Why do you think having HIV is Fe valuing > Fi valuing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Almost everything is type-related. If you say that X is not type-related, you're saying that every type has the exact same possibility to have a X as a trait. Un-fucking-believable.
    I agree with all of this, but when it comes to specific examples of type-relatedness they're really hard to justify. That is I'm certain that there exists a way (in theory) to find how Everything is type related, but in practice it takes studies of large amounts of correctly typed peoples, which without consensus can only be performed on a personal basis. When consensus finally builds (if ever) it will be very interesting to see studies that relate type and various diseases, and I think some in Russia have already started such studies.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Aquagraph, I bet I could kick your ass in real life.

    All while having a faggy soft voice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Being an asshole:
    Fi PoLR > Any other
    I don't see how having Fi as polr makes anyone an asshole. Just because they're bad at relational ethics doesn't mean they intend to. The motives behind one's actions are far more important than the actions themselves. There are also plenty of Fi dominants who could be considered assholes for systematically playing with other's feelings, talking shit behind their backs etc. Most ESIs I know are judgemental in a way that can seem pretty assholish.

    If you say anything else, I''l type you as some PoLR type.
    Yayy, I must be IEE then?

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Seems like I rose a lot of disagreement.
    I see I failed to convey this thought clearly.

    Forget about the examples. They clearly confused you about this subject and it they weren't my initial motive for starting this thread. It is clear that psychology is astonishingly complicated as the field of study is something opposite of observable and controlled environment. Look, I embrace all the individuals who break the beliefs/stereotypes/norms put against them. It's not just that they're exotic and interesting, it's a lot about how they show me how inaccurate all kinds of models can be. And those subjects might even hint me how the unpredicted and distinct specimen act. It's far more valuable information, than the test subjects (people) that are around me. It basically reminds me how I will always have to consider a big number of variables knowing that I can't ever make good all-explaining model. Just many models with their exceptions as their own little models and so on. They will never be accurate.

    Yet, there is correlation with types. Saying your thoughts aloud brings them under study, though under a very limited one. I've learned that if I trul want to learn, I will show an idea and wait it to be tested. And that is far from factually knowing anything. Yet it gives bit of intuitive experience and a way to take models as tools for certain situations. The more varied tools you possess, the more (varied) information is revealed. And contradictory information from contradictionary models is the most interesting sort.

    I agree with all of this, but when it comes to specific examples of type-relatedness they're really hard to justify. That is I'm certain that there exists a way (in theory) to find how Everything is type related, but in practice it takes studies of large amounts of correctly typed peoples, which without consensus can only be performed on a personal basis. When consensus finally builds (if ever) it will be very interesting to see studies that relate type and various diseases, and I think some in Russia have already started such studies.
    This.

    I believe that I'm a so-called hacker mentality. My friends have told me that while being highly socially able, I have autistic features. I think my calculativeness on people as well has helped me building social intelligence. I'm highly calculative, although most of the earlier calculatied moves are already being executed without a thought, subconsciously, as I have hacked myself a persona to suit my needs. Though the persona has flaws and is being built by lot of constructions which I cannot undo, many of those affected by factors that have been built-in from my environment and biology.

    Actually, this experimentation goes so far that I've created experiments for studying and do some social moves just for the interest of "what happens if this character that is 'me' does this". It is fairly simple to study social moves through internet as I have a lot of time to develop a persona and to try this traits among you, for example. I'm also inclined to find it interesting to see which ones of you find it insulting to be talked of as a test subject, even though, I must admit, you're a likable bunch and I hope you saw my fondness towards you in my act. And don't believe that I lied to you. Too much, that is. I'm highly honest person, but I will show you my only lie I can recall (and propably the only one I told you, believe it or not); I've known myself to be pretty much fitted to the description of ILE (as this was the most accurate model in socionics to describe me) since the time I started being active poster and changed my nickname from Irony Of Antinomy. It was interesting to see how you gave basis for SLE theory and showed again the frailty which persists every model and this I did with my character - the Text Written in Water, aquagraphic. Do you now see this. This and the fact that there was a nice bit of attention that I enjoyed.

    Oh, there was another -a rather minor- lie; NewBornStar knew my type. And there was a bit deception; Agarina and NewBornStar knew of my scheme, but I told them to keep it a secret.

    Socionics is just a new tool to me, nothing serious. Whether what type is related to having HIV or some other trait that isn't clearly over-represented would be totally a matter of trivia - and a fun fact at best.

    This was highly interesting as it seems I suffer from the highly frustrating drive to be real good at my role function. I got some results from this study. And I had fun. Hope the ones whom I liked enjoyed my company though some of you may see me as highly devious from now on.

    Please,
    if it's about this correlation logic, post it here.
    if it's about me, post it on this linked thread.
    Last edited by Aquagraph; 11-23-2011 at 08:59 PM.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Aquagraph, I bet I could kick your ass in real life.

    All while having a faggy soft voice.
    HAH
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    ...
    -PoLR.

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    After reading the elaboration of your original idea I can say I agree with you for the most part. I think the study of differences in personality and such is similar to the study of weather, as in meteorologists can give us a good idea of how the weather will react under certain conditions but, since we don't know/understand every factor and process that influence what happens in our atmosphere, it will never be 100% accurate in its predictions. Very good topic for a thread.

    P.S. Reading your 'confession' section makes me wish I was there for the whole ride, sounds pretty interesting(at certain points in my life I also enjoyed using other people as 'test subjects' to do social experiments on, probably on a smaller scale than you).

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Please tell me OP is a joke.

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Please tell me OP is a joke.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Hey man, I don't know aquagraph enough to tell.

    EDIT I also don't read posts, apparently
    Last edited by Galen; 11-24-2011 at 07:47 AM. Reason: APPARENTLY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I'm more interested in examples which break rather than confirm existing easy prejudices.
    The exact opposite of what I find interesting with socionics. To me the whole point with typing is to be able to do great assumptions about people without the need of getting to know them. I want my typing like this

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Half of you think this thread as stupid, the other half likes it.
    The precious hate-love division has appeared in this topic.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I don't see how having Fi as polr makes anyone an asshole. Just because they're bad at relational ethics doesn't mean they intend to. The motives behind one's actions are far more important than the actions themselves. There are also plenty of Fi dominants who could be considered assholes for systematically playing with other's feelings, talking shit behind their backs etc. Most ESIs I know are judgemental in a way that can seem pretty assholish.
    Whether it does is besides the point, yet there's propably a correlation on being asshole.
    PoLR wasn't one of the factors that made me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina
    the most unrespectable person I know
    ?
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    That is very interesting, Aquagraph.

    I have noticed that you're good at Ni when you posed this question to me in another thread: "Wait. Is me asking you to do this in another thread just to keep this one tidy, too far from Si PoLR? Just a thought." Hence my response "No." Although I admit I was gauging your responses in that thread to see how you will react to my typing of you as EIE. I was hoping my actions would not speed up the process of you revealing your type so I'd get more chance to interact with you, but it seems that I have did the opposite of what I intended.

    The funny thing about all of this is that your continuing your game, in a way, and that may or may not be your intention. You keep talking about being Fi-polr and how you are so and so, but that doesn't mean you are one. In essence, you seem to be trying to make people take it for granted that you are ILE. I like your persistence but it's very obvious to me that you're trying to paint a certain picture of you in people's mind for one reason or another. That makes me doubt your sources and who you are as a person. Are you really, Aquagraph, a new person to socionics, or someone else who is familiar with this site and has been a member before? That is what I really want to know.

    /here is hoping that you are not a waste of time

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    @Ryan
    I've answered to the appropriate thread.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    If you say that X is not type-related, you're saying that every type has the exact same possibility to have a X as a trait.
    Why? You worded it as if it's a logical statement but I don't see how this is nothing more than your personal sentiment.

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    Define type relation.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Define type relation.
    Pregnant.

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    That would be a waste of time. I'm not challenging your statement. I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to me.

    Like the example you gave for having HIV. Unless you say that being a Si polr, for example, would mean you would have a weak immune system, although you don't seem to imply such. That is an example of something I think is more intuitive than yours. I'm having trouble finding the link in your statement. How does part 1 imply part 2 in this statement: "If you say that X is not type-related (1), you're saying that every type has the exact same possibility to have a X as a trait (2)." Can you explain either this statement or the examples you gave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    That's a lot of why I dismiss when people state general correlations like, "Te PoLRs don't pay their bills on time." Well, that's a bad example, because it's inaccurate—but even if it were true as a tendency, it wouldn't be interesting and would lead to too many false positives. I'm more interested in examples which break rather than confirm existing easy prejudices.
    Type correlations aren't that accurate for typing individuals, but for a lot of people here, there's more to socionics than type lists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Ryan, he is saying that you are more likely to get HIV if you are Fe valuing/extraverted because those types are more likely to engage in risky behavior.
    Oh aqua I think I will add, I don't think being immune to HIV is type related

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Ryan, he is saying that you are more likely to get HIV if you are Fe valuing/extraverted because those types are more likely to engage in risky behavior.
    Yes. If by type relation you're referring logically to type correlation, even the most astonishingly far-fetched traits are propably in type correlation in a minor one at least. The world is full of unexpected correlation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenna View Post
    Oh aqua I think I will add, I don't think being immune to HIV is type related
    Not until you start typing non-human organisms. Or start measuring different degrees of immunity. Full immunity propably isn't. EXCEPT that there ARE fully immune people in the world gathering from what I've heard[citation needed]. They ought to have some common genes, thus having some common things in general, maybe some of them had lead to a diminutive correlation in type.

    I want type relation to be definend and if defined synonymous to type correlation, I will see almost every "It's not type-related"-phrase as (at least mildly) fallacious argument which only function seems to be to stop an interesting far-fetched playful theory with a boring answer. Inaccurate and unscientific.

    Pardon my aggressive smartass behavior. It's propably in correlation with being NT, EP temperament, extroversion, logical type and ego and propably in higher correlation with being ILE(-Ti).
    Last edited by Aquagraph; 11-25-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    http://www1.loquefaltaba.com/~sico/fotos/gifs/1298479506_video-game-trolling.gif
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Like the example you gave for having HIV. Unless you say that being a Si polr, for example, would mean you would have a weak immune system, although you don't seem to imply such. That is an example of something I think is more intuitive than yours. I'm having trouble finding the link in your statement. How does part 1 imply part 2 in this statement: "If you say that X is not type-related (1), you're saying that every type has the exact same possibility to have a X as a trait (2)." Can you explain either this statement or the examples you gave?
    Seems to me this is black facken magic where Si polrs are more inclined to get infected by HIV/AIDS. Fact is, most of our impressions about HIV and AIDS are actually based on popular ideas that have little or no basis in scientific fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Whether it does is besides the point, yet there's propably a correlation on being asshole.
    What I said is that being Fi or Fi polr has imo no correlation to the assholeness of a person.

    ?
    I don't remember posting that, but even if i did what does it have to do with this topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    I've always been exceptional in mathematics, despite being an ethical personality type. Graduated #3 in my high school class, in university, first 2 years with a 3.9, picked up a Calculus class as a GPA booster, , something I hear like 1% of people do haha. Math comes easy to me.

    Not sure if I'm an anomoly in that regard or not, but I would be EXTREMELY careful in making general assumptions about types, ESPECIALLY when you have no physical, concrete statistics or proof to base it on.

    Ditto. Being good at math/science has nothing to do with Ti. Ti-types might be more drawn ultimately to careers in pure math, physics, etc just because of the black/white defined structure to those fields, but you dont need to be a Ti-type (or Te-type for that matter) to excel in such subjects. Nor is being a Ti-type a guarantee that you'll be good at them. The human mind is a many splendored thing that can handle learning lots of different sorts of information regardless of the kind of information processing you use to learn it.
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    its sooner the other way around. non-T types are motivated at doing math because it is a challenge to them and a break from their everyday mental activities whereas T egos bore quickly from it and don't sense they have anything to prove with regard to it.

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    Math has nothing to do with type.

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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    What I said is that being Fi or Fi polr has imo no correlation to the assholeness of a person.
    So you think that there are precisely equal chances for a EII and SLE to be an asshole - assuming you could define 'asshole'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I don't remember posting that, but even if i did what does it have to do with this topic?
    You never did. You said it to me IRL. PoLR, was it not one of the factors that made me the asshole you perceive me as? Given, it's impossible to speculate what kind of Aquagraph would be, say, one with dom as then I would have to be a different person.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    So you think that there are precisely equal chances for a EII and SLE to be an asshole - assuming you could define 'asshole'?
    Yes. Being bad at Fi doesn't make anyone an asshole. It's the intention to be an asshole, not the acts themselves. I know a SLE who imo is a much better person than I am in many ways.

    You never did. You said it to me IRL. PoLR, was it not one of the factors that made me the asshole you perceive me as? Given, it's impossible to speculate what kind of Aquagraph would be, say, one with dom as then I would have to be a different person.
    Unrespectalbe and asshole are not exactly synonyms, but the answer is no. It's not about being fi polr, it's about the whole "I'm fi polr and proud of it" as if being unrespectable and intentionally making people feel shitty was something heroic. I haven't seen that in any other Fi polr I know. We've had this discussion before.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by labocat View Post
    its sooner the other way around. non-T types are motivated at doing math because it is a challenge to them and a break from their everyday mental activities whereas T egos bore quickly from it and don't sense they have anything to prove with regard to it.
    That has generally been my impression. However it's better when you actually have to do something creative with math, or actually apply it to complex problems.
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    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Yes.
    What?! There's propably a correlation in totally absurd connections! Like being left-handed and IQ, which actually correlates. Even the habit of scratching one's ass propably correlates (one way or the other) with being bad-sighted!
    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    bad at Fi doesn't make anyone an asshole.
    This is a straw man argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    It's the intention to be an asshole, not the acts themselves.
    Intention to not to pay heed to discretion, norms etc. are an intention as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    I know a SLE who imo is a much better person than I am in many ways.
    I know lots of anomalies. Besides, you don't consider yourself as a real good person anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Unrespectalbe and asshole are not exactly synonyms, but the answer is no. It's not about being fi polr, it's about the whole "I'm fi polr and proud of it" as if being unrespectable and intentionally making people feel shitty was something heroic. I haven't seen that in any other Fi polr I know. We've had this discussion before.
    You tell me you haven't seen PoLRs being proud of their rudeness?! I can remember such cases since my childhood, nevermind their type. Girl, you haven't met a lot of people.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  39. #39
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    Ditto. Being good at math/science has nothing to do with Ti. Ti-types might be more drawn ultimately to careers in pure math, physics, etc just because of the black/white defined structure to those fields[...]
    That means that those s are going to pursue math and will get better at it. Correlation right there, even if a minor one. Just the fact that they look world through the glasses makes them prone to act in such way, making them at least a little bit more propable to be better at math than PoLR.
    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    [...]you dont need to be a Ti-type (or Te-type for that matter) to excel in such subjects.
    A straw man.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    That means that those s are going to pursue math and will get better at it. Correlation right there, even if a minor one. Just the fact that they look world through the glasses makes them prone to act in such way, making them at least a little bit more propable to be better at math than PoLR. A straw man.
    There are weak correlations as well as strong ones. You speak of minor/weak correlations as if they are of similar weight to the stronger ones. If you view it in this manner, everything will have correlations to everything else. But it doesn't mean that it would mean anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph
    "It's not type-related"
    FUCK YOU.
    When somebody says that X is type-related, they are essentially saying that behavior X has a high probability of being connected to a certain type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph
    You tell me you haven't seen PoLRs being proud of their rudeness?! I can remember such cases since my childhood, nevermind their type. Girl, you haven't met a lot of people.
    Condescending much? Now this is what I call a fine example of a strawman. She isn't saying that there aren't any rude/assholish Fi PoLRs around, but that not all of them are. If there is only a 50% chance of Fi PoLRs being typically assholish, there is no strong correlation, and hence may be deemed as Not Type Related.

    Being a rude, unethical asshole may or may not be related to type. That you relate to being one though, shows more about you than of Fi PoLRs as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina
    I know a SLE who imo is a much better person than I am in many ways.
    FTR, I knew an SLE like that too. Such a positive exemplar that I initially mistook for being Fi seeking.

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