ENTps are not really socially awkward, are they?

[felafel]

zzzzzzzzzz

[FoxOnStilts]

It's situational for me. The majority of the time, I am like you describe. Especially if I'm part of a group with some kind of goal, even if that goal is something small, like, "Okay we're going to a movie, what movie are we going to?" Throw me into a situation where the group or goal isn't very well defined (a bar? a club? Something like that, I guess,) and I am a lot more standoffish. And suspicious of people, but I think that's because I'm a girl and anyone at a club who talks to you pretty much just wants to get laid.

I'm also terrible at one-on-one interactions, though. I get awkwaaard. I like to have a group to play off of. And if emotions/feelings/relationships come up in most any circumstance, I try to change the subject to something else with snarky comments or just shut up and sit on the sidelines until they get it out of their system.

So most of the time I am an entertainer and thought-provoker and brainstormer, but outside of an atmosphere conducive to that, I can be very "impenetrable wall".

[FoxOnStilts]

Nope that's totally true for me. If I hate someone I completely cut them out, sever all ties and refuse to be anywhere near them or treat them with any semblance of warmth no matter how many people will be there or how important it is to a mutual friend etc. This I can very very stubborn and cold about, and it's probably one of the very few things that I'm like that with socially.

(and by thought-provoking, I just mean anything beyond gossip or chatter)

[lemontrees]

It really depends on the person. Some of them can be really charming/social and others can be really noticeably strange/feel awkward/tell their SEI friend (read: me) about their feelings of awkwardness. The cute thing is though that even the "awkward" ones know how to work a crowd; they just do stranger things (i.e. I had one friend who would do dinosaur impressions in person...people thought he was fucking insane but they kind of loved it.)

What's actually always scared me about ILE's is that they have much wider friend circles than I do; and they like to try to charm everyone; when I'm getting to know one that I'm drawn to I always think that I'm nothing but another person to them. (This applies to way before socionics.) ...maybe I should just carry around homemade pastries in my pocket. Hahaha.

[lemontrees]

No, they're generally pretty open. But I'm sure there are exceptions based on the person and circumstances.

[Beautiful sky]

They are quiet, distant from the inner circle, observant, socially awkward.

[Aquagraph]

No, they're generally pretty open. But I'm sure there are exceptions based on the person and circumstances.

They ought to open to your Fe.

ILEs I know have been real cool yet a little 'nerdy' mofos. They have hard time being serious and really open as they themselves don't know what they want, except their momentarily whimsical want which will propably change within the next five minutes.

[krieger]

likely to say the random off-the-cuff cruel thing (family guy ex.)

you cite the family guy as an example of ENTp in support of ENTps NOT being awkward..?

[krieger]

charmers - i bet they think they are, which is sort of the problem; see Reuben
very easy to fit in with groups obviously depends on which groups; they don't fit in with groups of ISFJ
will take over the group 'leader' part, at least entertainment-wise i suppose the bone can be thrown to the them that they are forward and initiative taking... with all the downsides that come with the trait
quick to redefine situations if things do not suit them yeah that's why they are awkward
likely to say the random off-the-cuff cruel thing (family guy ex.) ditto

words

[Aquagraph]

you cite the family guy as an example of ENTp in support of ENTps NOT being awkward..?

Brian (ENTP) is liked by most, in the audience and within the series. I even knew a SEI girl who had a crush on him. Peter (ENTP) is a retarded case and as ENTps tend to be visible, they raise a lot of like and dislike, and the proportions (which in Peters case is mostly dislike) are set by ENTps charisma which is largely based on the wits (Peter has none) of the individual ILE.

ILE's almost always have the belief that they can be charming. For good and worse.
Whether they charm or annoy, they won't doubt their need to be seen.

[mu4]

I heard someone tell me a quote a ILE said recently and it was something like this.

"I don't ever want to be sitting at dinner with people I don't like."

I think this is true for me a lot of the time. I am much more awkward when dealing with people I don't like and usually shut down a little. I generally need to be around at least a few people I know which settles me down a bit.

[1981slater]

It is not ILEs are weird. Sometimes, when I say sth, I find out that no one is understanding what I am saying and I get frustrated. 99% of people have low IQs and can only grasp conversations related with the weather and sports.

[Gilly]

I encompass both extremes, and it really just depends on my mood. I can be the most outgoing, boisterous, most extroverted person you've ever seen in your life if I'm at a party and in a good mood, especially if I'm with a couple of my best friends. Also I am incredibly moody and become shy and anxious and awkward in the wrong mood. There is really no factor other than my mood and willingness involved, but with the variance of both I can shoot to either extreme.

[Gilly]

It is not ILEs are weird. Sometimes, when I say sth, I find out that no one is understanding what I am saying and I get frustrated. 99% of people have low IQs and can only grasp conversations related with the weather and sports.

This is really true. I tried reading a paragraph of Mises to a coworker and he just stared at me blankly like I had said something in Chinese. I also tend to make my boss feel inferior accidentally because I know more about our mutual interests than he does. And yeah I kind of have an ego about it, but it's not like I really flaunt it or try to MAKE people feel dumb, they just get threatened when I become a fountain of information and they have nothing to say in response.

[Slacker]

So you're at ILE > SLE or IEI?

[Gilly]

don't ask me questions ;_;

[Beautiful sky]

It is not ILEs are weird. Sometimes, when I say sth, I find out that no one is understanding what I am saying and I get frustrated. 99% of people have low IQs and can only grasp conversations related with the weather and sports.

LOL

[1981slater]

This is really true. I tried reading a paragraph of Mises to a coworker and he just stared at me blankly like I had said something in Chinese. I also tend to make my boss feel inferior accidentally because I know more about our mutual interests than he does. And yeah I kind of have an ego about it, but it's not like I really flaunt it or try to MAKE people feel dumb, they just get threatened when I become a fountain of information and they have nothing to say in response.

So when I am ish, I stop being ish and be ish instead. True story

[Gilly]

So when I am ish, I stop being ish and be ish instead. True story

Huh?

[Creepy-Snaps]

Huh?

[DividedsGhost]

When ENTPs cry:

[Leader]

Awesome is another word for annoying.

[Galen]

It's situational for me. The majority of the time, I am like you describe. Especially if I'm part of a group with some kind of goal, even if that goal is something small, like, "Okay we're going to a movie, what movie are we going to?" Throw me into a situation where the group or goal isn't very well defined (a bar? a club? Something like that, I guess,) and I am a lot more standoffish. And suspicious of people, but I think that's because I'm a girl and anyone at a club who talks to you pretty much just wants to get laid.

I'm actually a lot like this too. I wonder if it's more of an so last thing.

[Beautiful sky]

what is standoffish?

[Creepy-male]

This is interesting -- I may or may not be ENTp, but for me when I was in high school I was very much like that... I used to get away with a lot of insensitive jokes, I would play tricks on people and get away with saying racist things at times to people of other races because it was all in good fun. It was kind of immature, but also clever/witty. I remember being able at certain time to go into social interaction and be the life of that party, strike up conversations and so forth. So in all that you described I fit pretty well, but then I always felt like that was only half of my personality and the other half was focused on how I felt when I didn't feel like mingling with people. In certain situations, if I felt off, I would be more aloof and quiet and shy, I definitely didn't want to take the initiative and preferred to just chill out in the backround. I feel like this is what I really enjoy though, like I'd rather use all that random social interaction to build up energy to go somewhere with a smaller group of people. For example, the best part of going to parties (in my opinion) isn't just the random chaos of running into people, but its making connections with those people, and as the night goes on your in a new group and on a new "adventure" so to speak. I look at all the random chaos now as a means to an end more so than an end to itself. So I personally feel like maybe on the surface you have the right idea, but underneath it may be a little different. I feel like the "social" extroverted/introverted dichotomy is a bit over-emphasized in personality descriptions, I think most people can relate easy to both needing to be around people and needing to not be around people.

One aspect I'm particularly introverted on is I like to travel very far distances, I get in my car and drive very far, sometimes for 1-2 hours, leave the city and go very far away then return. I find the sensation pleasant for some odd reason and it's a compulsion I have from time to time. I also find when I'm downtown, I like to immediately find parking garages and drive to the roof, or I like to go to the highest floor in building and even get to the roof if I can. I especially like it when no one is around at the top. I don't mind the idea of getting a boat and driving it out into the middle of the ocean, or sailing, or flying in an airplane for long distances. Spending a year traveling through space sounds more fun than frightening to me. In all of these things, it seems very introverted... and I definitely wouldn't want to do these things on a daily basis, I find that I use this sort of thing to chop things up... when I get really sick of other people I tend to enjoy doing this, and it really balances me out a lot. In fact it would be a huge fantasy to just take a helicopter out into the mountains and land on some plateau and live there for a week and then just fly back. The more commercialized this process is, the more I dislike it. I remember one time hanging out at a campground all night, we just had a giant fire, chairs, music, food etc... it was a pretty good experience. I'd much rather do that sort of thing with a few interesting characters than go to a huge party with a bunch of random strangers.

Maybe it's related to NT's extreme loathing of small talk.... I like people who are real and interesting, rather than the mindless ego-games of breaking the ice and first impressions. If anything this aspect feels like escaping from a dissociative purgatory. It feels like I'm trying to pick a lock and escape from that aspect.... where as when I was younger like in high school and so forth it was a little more entertaining... maybe because everyone is more real when they are younger? Sometimes I see it a bit like a numbers game, there are over 5 billion people on this planet with hours and hours of personal experience, in a given life time you only have so much room for certain people with focused attention, everything else is very small and like background noise, you have experiences with these people and your actions may affect theirs through second or third hand ways, like how small variations change the results of a chaotic system -- but its not the primary focus of your life.

Considering the fact that I am ENTp, maybe it's more like ENTps like to mingle with people for reasons, it's like a game of sorts to figure out other people and what makes them unique and what the potentials of interacting with these individuals are... and that in turns fuels a sort of playful curious drive in social interactions, but that's not necessarily the end in itself but a means to achieve connection with people at a more fundamental level which transcends the barriers of the extroverted/introverted dichotomy.

Yea I'll go for that, for the time being, I'll place my vote on that.

Then again, you also have to view how the creative function influences this drive... ENFp's and ENTp's will share similarities but the details will differ.

[Gilly]

Relate

[The Ineffable]

^ok, thanks. i'd say that some of that fits, but some of it just sounds off.

To me too. Her description sounds to me more of an EIE. One of the most striking contradictions to my experience, and I'm not talking solely about myself as a known ILE, is that awkwardness in one-on-one interactions, along with group/bulk easiness. I think typical is the other way around.

[Aquagraph]

I wish boredom of persona would be fatal. If there's only shallow shitchat around, I'll find a way for them to consider me awkward while inspiring the real people with souls.

[The Ineffable]

^thanks, but can you elaborate though? by 'awkwardness' do you mean perceived awkwardness of self or you've actually come across as such to others (aka someone told you so or sth along those lines).

To clarify, I said that the ILE is typically involved and open (sometimes indiscrete) in the interactions with one or few people, and often awkward, distant or bored in group situations when it is supposed to "socialize", the other way around of what FoxOnStilts described. In fact I instinctively consider such people who have issues with personal closeness as troubled, as if they have an emotional or other kind of problem (false persona, pervert thoughts, try to hide something, or what?).

What I meant was my subjective awkwardness about the group situation itself, rather. A feeling of pointlessness, of changing/boring topics, of dull chit-chat and unwelcome requirement for accomodation. I remember myself entertaining the "audience" and although more often than the average person, it is rather as an exception than as a rule, that happens when there's something that intrigues people, unusual or controversial things (including debate). It just "comes when it comes", if you know what I mean, when I'm on something and become assertive, not premeditated. I generally don't feel I am perceived awkward (when I am), I don't even pay that much attention, neither I am told.
---

I currently have the occasion to closely and daily observe a stereotypical ILE behaving naturally, in my team. What I know about me pretty well can be applied to him, even if currently I'm more private there, being less accustomed to the environment (and there's another guy I think is ILE in my situation, he is even more "awkward" than me), however he reminds me of myself in my former workplaces. We are different in appearance, style and background, though. He has the usual direct, critical, theoretical attitude that I expect from an ILE, but I think that the most striking feature to me was his oscillations between open-arms and helpfulness this minute VS being distant, absorbed and dismissive the next, you could think he gets irritated if he weren't welcoming again little bit later, which means lack of the necessary grudges for that view. This is interesting to me since although I know I'm behaving similarily, it offers me the occasion to experience the qualia of it.

Above all, he doesn't talk random shit, neither do I, nor any ILE I know. I reiterate that this is a misconception. Although they may be very verbose and "creative" so to speak, that IMO happens just because they rapidly think about all the aspects of the object of interest, while making analogies with different other things, just there is a point and never making up ideas out of the void or mixing up unrelated things for the sake of it.

[The Ineffable]

No offense intended to FoxOnStilts or others who mentioned fear of closeness or intimacy, my mind just goes there without believing or asserting that that's necessarily the case.
---

I found this post of plotter which I find insightful, if not relevant:

It comes and goes, but I've talked about it with pretty much everyone I know that I consider close enough to go beyond exchanging pleasentries. When I learn about new stuff or just get a renewed interest in something, I feel compelled to share it with everyone I know, to the point that people tell me to shut up.

But this applies to all theories and interests. I find that discussing things with people and apply theories as filters to different contexts is the best way to see if you grasped it, and in cases like with socionics, its the only way to test its validity.

I guess sharing my thoughts and "insights" is my favorite way of relating to people, and when people want to know more

I've forced everyone I know to do tests (both socionics and mbti), and afterwards I've discussed their results with them, how accurate they are and what it implies. The only people who've been persuaded to deeper depths are some close friends LIE, SEI and EIE, who are all quite fond of discussing random theories, especially psychology, anthropoly and the like.

plotter self-types as ILE and I think that is correct so far.

[Kogoro Akechi]

how odd could they possibly be? the ones i've known so far have been fairly socially active, very much so. i wouldn't call them socially awkward either (tho i've seen it mentioned in the forums) - i've just never seen it. my impressions so far have been:

socially:
charmers
very easy to fit in with groups
will take over the group 'leader' part, at least entertainment-wise
quick to redefine situations if things do not suit them
likely to say the random off-the-cuff cruel thing (family guy ex.)

i've never witnessed them be an 'impermeable wall' to social atmosphere inputs.

anyone seen this or have i simply mistyped person i'm thinking of?

The bold part describes my best friend, she is an ENTP.

[FoxOnStilts]

After looking back over this thread, I think the description is more how the ENTp comes off to other people rather than how they feel themselves. I do apparently fit in well, am charismatic, and tend to be a leader (as someone described me recently and I had to laugh in their face ), but it's (mostly) unconscious and a lot of the time I'm really paranoid and it's a "HEY LIKE ME LIKE ME" facade (lol Fi-polr butting heads with Fe-HA).

[Gilly]

Brian (ENTP) is liked by most, in the audience and within the series. I even knew a SEI girl who had a crush on him. Peter (ENTP) is a retarded case and as ENTps tend to be visible, they raise a lot of like and dislike, and the proportions (which in Peters case is mostly dislike) are set by ENTps charisma which is largely based on the wits (Peter has none) of the individual ILE.

ILE's almost always have the belief that they can be charming. For good and worse.
Whether they charm or annoy, they won't doubt their need to be seen.

Brian is not ENTP. He is some Ne/Si introvert, probably SLI. He has that feeling some Delta men have, like that "I'm older so I must have seen it all" bullshit.

[strrrng]

most have an endearing awkwardness, which is complementary to the often dulled composure of xEIs. the Fe-seeking always feels distinct, how its expressed comes down to what 'kind' of ILE they are... one I knew, an sx/so 7w6 who was raised on ritualized meds to fix his adhd, he was more like a rabid squirrel throwing sharded acorns to see who would deflect them... another of the same e-type, Ne-sub, the manager where I work, he likes to play zapdos on angeldust, talking about teletubbies before work shifts, always maintaining intensity, but his energy feels way misdirected. the ones I usually get along with best are the so-last 6s, who are predominantly Ti-sub, they seem to appreciate understated cues that better define social roles. I've actually had more conflict with my duals than them... usually the relations just feel like a lazy sunday morning bong rip, all is well.