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Thread: Physical work v mental work

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Default Physical work v mental work

    I have noticed that ESEs and LSEs claim that only physical work is "real work". From their point of view, computer programmers, translators, professors, writers, etc are a bunch of lazy cheaters who do not deserve to earn a wage. Some ESEs and LSEs have no skills whatsoever and have to deal with hours of drudgery: they label others as "lazy" instead of admitting their own lack of skills. Those with a special talent don't have to punish their own bodies; besides, mental work is exhausting too.
    I have to say that I haven't dismissed The Innefable's idea that I am LIE: what I have described might be an attack on my supposed si polr...or my se role!
    Feedback?
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    Don't dismiss him, he knows what he is talking about. You're going to get to be Ashton's dual this way. I think theInfantile still types him ESI.
    Last edited by Absurd; 11-14-2011 at 10:14 AM.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Personally I prefer physical work to mental work...its more refreshing. They can have my flesh; my mind is mine.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Don't dismiss him, he knows what he is talking about. You're going to get to be Ashton's dual this way. I think theInfantile still types him ESI.
    We are all duals of a lost generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    We are all duals of a lost generation.
    Generation X?

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    Whatever, I usually tell them, if that pays me money it means someone needed it so it can't be "useless". (ofc I've never worked for the government...)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Personally I prefer physical work to mental work...its more refreshing. They can have my flesh; my mind is mine.
    i'd rather mY obligations be phYsical work. it's easier to perform than to have Your head in the right place for something. i consider art to be a combination of phYsical and mental work, which makes it extremelY difficult to have due dates for. of course i'd pick mental or phYsical work over social work. social shit is what i put off the most
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    esfj and estj can be like that lol.

    I'm a writer, I like mental work. I also don't like being nice to people unless they really deserve it. Too many people think they deserve to have their asses kissed socially without earning that right. I prefer being neutral/ignoring most people. Lack of physical willpower and lack of socialization are my weaker points, but I'm extremely smart, wise and psychic. I just sense that most people want me to get into this one sided relationship with them where I lose and they win. It's icky, and so most people I avoid and Blink away from like a Mage, because it's just not worth it.

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    Hard labour and creative mental work.
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    I much prefer creative work with the freedom to do physical labor or at least being able to get some physical activity in throughout the day.

    IEE Ne Creative Type

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    If you prefer physical work then...likely you have never worked construction. Or perhaps it's just me being a pussy. After 2 months of that, I didn't want to have anything to do with hard pyhsical labor (of course "light" physical labor is fine - even woodcutting is much, much less demanding than construction) for all my life, unless it was absolutely necessary to earn a living.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    I have noticed that ESEs and LSEs claim that only physical work is "real work". From their point of view, computer programmers, translators, professors, writers, etc are a bunch of lazy cheaters who do not deserve to earn a wage. Some ESEs and LSEs have no skills whatsoever and have to deal with hours of drudgery: they label others as "lazy" instead of admitting their own lack of skills. Those with a special talent don't have to punish their own bodies; besides, mental work is exhausting too.
    I have to say that I haven't dismissed The Innefable's idea that I am LIE: what I have described might be an attack on my supposed si polr...or my se role!
    Feedback?
    There's no denying that any kind of 'work', physical or mental, will tire you out. However, I have asked my friends before, and they do agree that physical work tires you out much more quickly than mental work. Despite this, I have always pursued careers with mental work more, because they tire me out less, and generally earn more $$$. I think anyone who says "bunch of lazy cheaters who do not deserve to earn a wage" is an idiot, doesn't respect others' talents, and shouldn't be listened to.

    Interesting you found a correlation with this stereotype to ESXjs, because I find many immature people of all types, who put down others, and try to inflate their own self-worth. It's generally called making excuses, instead of working harder. We're all born with different talents/abilities, and if we apply ourselves, we can all accomplish great things.

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    I learned in physics what counts as work. No matter how hard you have to think, it's not work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    There's no denying that any kind of 'work', physical or mental, will tire you out. However, I have asked my friends before, and they do agree that physical work tires you out much more quickly than mental work. Despite this, I have always pursued careers with mental work more, because they tire me out less, and generally earn more $$$. I think anyone who says "bunch of lazy cheaters who do not deserve to earn a wage" is an idiot, doesn't respect others' talents, and shouldn't be listened to.

    Interesting you found a correlation with this stereotype to ESXjs, because I find many immature people of all types, who put down others, and try to inflate their own self-worth. It's generally called making excuses, instead of working harder. We're all born with different talents/abilities, and if we apply ourselves, we can all accomplish great things.
    I'd agree with that. I'll tell someone they are being lazy if I see that they are actually being lazy and doing nothing. I don't think I've ever seen a person as lazy for doing any sort of work. Quite the contrary in my case, I know a person who does web design and art for a career and think they work about 10x more than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    That's just Ni PoLRs being… Ni PoLR. Intangible gains in quality, creativity, and efficiency are hard to justify to them as opposed to raw 'productivity' output.
    Makes sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    I have noticed that ESEs and LSEs claim that only physical work is "real work". From their point of view, computer programmers, translators, professors, writers, etc are a bunch of lazy cheaters who do not deserve to earn a wage. Some ESEs and LSEs have no skills whatsoever and have to deal with hours of drudgery: they label others as "lazy" instead of admitting their own lack of skills. Those with a special talent don't have to punish their own bodies; besides, mental work is exhausting too.
    I have to say that I haven't dismissed The Innefable's idea that I am LIE: what I have described might be an attack on my supposed si polr...or my se role!
    Feedback?
    IDK; my LSE bf is a writer; he gets up at 5 am every gosh darn morning and 7 when he takes one day out of the week "off." He writes, which takes up a lot of mental energy and he never calls me lazy -better not! Actually, he has no excuse because he sees me working as much as he does, except I cook and buy groceries, which take up a lot of my energy. I think you have Te wrong here. Both being Si types, can actually sense the loss and drain of energy in other individuals and are actually quite forgiving of their lack of action; bot are quite accepting. Maybe this is only because they can see that physically, me being as small as I am, that naturally I couldn't hold the kind of energy like they do even if I tried. My boyfriend does often say to me, when I complain of lack of energy, "well, honey, what do you expect? you weigh as much as a bird while I can likely survive a week without eating."

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    If you prefer physical work then...likely you have never worked construction. Or perhaps it's just me being a pussy. After 2 months of that, I didn't want to have anything to do with hard pyhsical labor (of course "light" physical labor is fine - even woodcutting is much, much less demanding than construction) for all my life, unless it was absolutely necessary to earn a living.
    You're a pussy.

    When I ran a coffee shop in Virginia, I offered to run the farmers market alone. The guy who did it before me was 5'7" and weighed about 230 lbs. His neck was thicker than his head. The job involved toting a humongous old wooden cart loaded with pastries, about a dozen big cannisters of coffee, and gigantic cast iron weight for the humongous umbrella that designated our space a little over a quarter mile, and then back after a couple of hours. It was fun.

    And then I would bike home on mountain biking trails with jumps and go home. And I was still amped.

    I never really get tired out by physical labor unless it's truly grueling; in fact I get more amped as I go along, pretty much until I hit exhaustion. Until that point I can always give a burst of energy. I like working until I sweat. When I was a midfielder in lacrosse in high school I probably spent 2/3 of the game on the field, which is pretty insane considering they basically run half the length of the field ever 30 seconds on average.

    I'm more uncomfortable being in stagnant or restricted conditions. Sitting at a desk all day would be absolute hell for me. For me it's all about a state of mind; if I'm in a lazy state of mind, even if I have energy I won't do shit, and if I'm in a lazy state of mind I'm not going to do any mental work either. But if I'm psyched up, it doesn't matter if it's 3 am and I have work the next day, there's no putting me down Even if I'm doing mental work I want to be moving around. When I write, half the time my knee is bouncing up and down like crazy because getting into a good groove gets me worked up.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    When I ran a coffee shop in Virginia, I offered to run the farmers market alone. The guy who did it before me was 5'7" and weighed about 230 lbs. His neck was thicker than his head. The job involved toting a humongous old wooden cart loaded with pastries, about a dozen big cannisters of coffee, and gigantic cast iron weight for the humongous umbrella that designated our space a little over a quarter mile, and then back after a couple of hours. It was fun.
    Well, how long did you have to do this? I found construction fun for the first month, then it became quite a strain on my back, neck, etc.

    And then I would bike home on mountain biking trails with jumps and go home. And I was still amped.
    Endurance (and sports in general) is a different matter, as you probably know I have cycled for 20'000-30'000 kms a year no problem. It's just the strain on the tendons and ligaments that makes most kinds of physical work hard, IME.

    never really get tired out by physical labor unless it's truly grueling;
    Well, thanks Sherlock. The point is, some physical labor is definitely grueling, especially if extended over long periods of time.
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    Definitely in the physical > mental work camp. Not sure why exactly. Physical stuff is easier to get into after you've figured out whatever it is you're doing. On one hand, it can be more autopilot; on the other it's more zen. In the former, you can dream. In the latter, you simply do.

    Also, gilly work for fedex. You can run everywhere you want lifting x < 150 lbs!
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    I don't think it's totally type related, the line of work that suits me best probably suits introverts and enneagram 4s or 5s better, that is it takes time, thought, meticulousness. A lot of pacing, rethinking, dependence on inspirational moments and ideas popping up, keeping in a comfortable warm mental state, little distraction for my imagination.

    Work to me is very similar to persistence.

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    I can also recall my SLI friend (construction worker) saying that doctors and engineers should earn the same wage (rather low) as him...
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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Whatever, I usually tell them, if that pays me money it means someone needed it so it can't be "useless". (ofc I've never worked for the government...)
    Good answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    i'd rather mY obligations be phYsical work. it's easier to perform than to have Your head in the right place for something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Physical work is a lot easier to contend with, and I don't have to worry about shit like being in the right frame of mind, etc. So yeah, I prefer physical to mental work.
    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Definitely in the physical > mental work camp. Not sure why exactly. Physical stuff is easier to get into after you've figured out whatever it is you're doing. On one hand, it can be more autopilot; on the other it's more zen. In the former, you can dream. In the latter, you simply do.
    Exactly, the autopilot mode can't be used when doing mental work.

    BTW, LSEs and ESEs BELIEVE that if they exhaust themselves they will surely accomplish something, regardless of how they work.
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, how long did you have to do this? I found construction fun for the first month, then it became quite a strain on my back, neck, etc.
    About a year and a half.

    Yeah I could see that re: lifting shit, but I dunno most construction workers I see definitely aren't doing "grueling" work, they stand around drinking canned soda and smoking cigarettes half the fucking time. Not that I'm any better, fuck I work in retail, but that doesn't make construction any more intense.

    Endurance (and sports in general) is a different matter, as you probably know I have cycled for 20'000-30'000 kms a year no problem. It's just the strain on the tendons and ligaments that makes most kinds of physical work hard, IME.
    Yeah that kind of stuff sucks.

    Cycling doesn't count IMO. I mean I know it tests your endurance and mentality, but its not really...difficult. And you can't say I don't know, because I've biked over a hundred miles a day for weeks on end in some of the craziest terrain in the United States. Compared to playing lacrosse, or mountain biking, cycling is pretty un-stressful and doesn't really test you in the same way that really hard labor does. It's not truly exhausting; even when my muscles were sore and I didn't want to keep going, I still kind of did, like it never really emptied me of my drive. My muscles were tired, but I wasn't truly beaten.

    Being a middy, on the other hand...holy fuck...

    Well, thanks Sherlock. The point is, some physical labor is definitely grueling, especially if extended over long periods of time.
    There are definitely some shitty jobs out there that fuck people over pretty quick, especially jobs like working in factories, assembling cars, that kind of stuff. But those aside, I would always prefer a job that required physical exertion as opposed to mental strain or emotional stress.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Exactly, the autopilot mode can't be used when doing mental work.
    lol IMO mental work induces the worst kind of auto pilot

    BTW, LSEs and ESEs BELIEVE that if they exhaust themselves they will surely accomplish something, regardless of how they work.
    Ehhhh...I think that's more like an Si PoLR kind of thing.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I have not found what is in the OP to be true for the LSEs and ESEs I know.
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    Reasoning for not having found it to be true: I know an LSE computer programmer, and the publisher of a newspaper I wrote for was LSE. She paid us for writing so she must have thought it was worth pay. Also, ESEs I know seem to think it's cool that I wrote for a newspaper and don't seem at all to think it isn't "real work."
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    Gosh, I have no idea, which I would prefer more.
    I'm fine with being a hairdresser, absolutely zero occasions, when I've got to deal with the permeability of anything, and zero bricks, and boards I got to carry around, I can't complain.

    So guess, my answer is none.

    Whenever I feel exhausted while working, or sorry for my waisted 3years, I just think on this scene


  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    BTW, LSEs and ESEs BELIEVE that if they exhaust themselves they will surely accomplish something, regardless of how they work.
    Not really... I know this is how intuitives perceive us, but it's theory at best. I like working hard, tiring myself out, SO THAT I get a lot done. I DO take notice of how much is getting accomplished, be it physical or mental, and would say I'm actually MORE aware of what is concretely getting done, as an Ej temperament, than other types.

    And LSEs are masters at efficiency, so really not sure why you'd make the above statement. "How they work" is especially important to them, as well as how much is getting done. It's not just blindly tiring ourselves out at all.

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