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Thread: Conflict Relations - Married INTp & ESFj

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    Default Conflict Relations - Married INTp & ESFj

    Hello everyone,

    I recently found Socionics. I was surprised to see my wife and I have the worst match up, all the information regarding conflict relations rang true. I just finished reading the collection of articles on this site that offered some insight into our relationship. However, I was hoping that anyone with experience in this type of relationship (marriage) could offer advice, tips, or anecdotal stories that may help improve our relationship. Thank you.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Hi,

    They aren't good. And, they get worse over time. More specifically, the ESE/ESFj is oriented towards Si not Se; they could care less about being optimally productive or oriented to do things as ILI/INTp suggests Te to them and they can't and don't want that. In this relations, the ESE want's constant close physical/sexual contact and the ILI is oriented towards wanting to get them to look and evaluate objective experiences. ESE can only handle limited interactions, being especially anti-social, they don't keep relations and have parties, this upsets the people driven natured ILI more. My mom is ILI and my dad's love of hosting parties is one of the things she enjoys from the relationship although she wouldn't normally gather a party herself.

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    I have two suggestions.

    Don't spend extra time around each other; you're likely to drive each other nuts.

    Learn everything you can about each others' types so you can just yell "black L!" when she hits your PoLR and not have to explain yourself.

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    They are married, for Christsake

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    Conflict relations aren't as bad as what theory claims it to be. With awareness and knowledge of both your personalities, misunderstandings could be minimized. So many other factors affect compatibility. Socionics may claim to predict relations due to the brain's perceptual biases, but when people type, what they do is simply to cherry-pick traits that they perceive the individual to possess and type them according to that.

    Don't let predictions of the gloom and doom affect your perception of your marriage. People's types aren't easy to discern, and types aren't set in stone.

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    Hi, DonCoryon.

    You say that the Conflict relation descriptions accurately describe your marriage. Those descriptions don't paint a picture of a very healthy relationship, so have you gotten any outside support for developing relationship skills? If you're not familiar with the Gottman Institute and its founder's books and the fact that some therapists are trained in this approach to couples counseling, please take a look:

    http://www.gottman.com/

    It's the best relationship information I've found, and it's based on substantial research conducted over decades.

    To inject a bit of personal stuff, I was in a decade-long marriage that had a bad Socionics prognosis and that did end in divorce, but I'm not sure it has to be that way. I would say, though, that my ex and I had such a lack of mutual understanding, it was very difficult to "work on" the relationship, as we couldn't even agree on how to improve things or exactly what the nature of the problem was.

    But OTOH, I've typed my parents INTp-ESFp duals (not an easy conclusion to draw), and they divorced, mostly as a result of my father's misbehavior, which could have been avoided or repaired, perhaps, if either or both of them had had more knowledge about relationships or more resources on hand to get through a difficult pass. They later regretted their divorce, btw.

    If you value your marriage and your partner, if I were you I would mostly set aside Socionics for now and look at what you and your partner can do in action, not in theory, to improve things and learn to comprehend each other. Imo, Socionics doesn't offer a lot of information on how to remediate challenging relations; instead, it mainly seems to prophesy doom for all but duality and a handful of other, not quite as favorable relationships, and that focus is not apt to help you right now.

    Also, there's the possibility that you or your spouse is mistyped in this scenario simply because things are not going ideally well for you.

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    I'm just some random stranger with no true insight into your marriage, so take that into consideration, but imo:

    Listening, communication, and a desire to make things work go farther than anything else in making a relationship successful. Sometimes there are insurmountable barriers to overcome, but usually it's just a lack of imagination, lack of desire, and giving up too damn easily that impacts the demise of, or failure to even start a relationship with someone.

    What may seem to fit the descriptions of conflict relations right now may not once you understand each other better. And you may find workable solutions just by taking the time to really understand the other's point of view. True whether you're socionics conflictors or not. Don't buy into the duality hype. There isn't some magical ideal person that is perfectly suited to you and always knows the best thing to do, etc. etc. It gets trumped up as something amazing, perfect, the only real sustainable relationship, blah blah, and that's bullshit. The happiest couples I know aren't even duals. I don't know any conflictor couples, but even if you actually are conflictors, it's not hopeless.

    Socionics describes the way you take in and process information, and conflicting types do this in opposing ways. The way you understand things may (or may not) be harder to communicate to each other for this reason. Accepting that her way of seeing things is different but not worse than your way might help, and vv. Work from the common ground that you do have. But, you're probably better off seeing a marriage counselor than trying to use socionics to repair your relationship.

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    I'd suggest you eradicate the notion that Socionics alone can define the complexities of your relationship, and remember why you got married in the first place.

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    Thank you for all the replies.

    I kind of picked up on the vibe that everyone took my question as my marriage is in dire straights and divorce is on the brink. However, this is not the case. Really I would describe our problems as consist bickering. Second, we rarely if ever agree on anything. And the third we tend to talk past each other.

    I'll give some quick examples.

    Yesterday I went around the house collecting trash from all the rooms. I placed the bathroom trash can on the oppisite side of the bathroom that it is "supposed" to go. She was brushing our baby daughter's teeth and needed to throw something away. She couldn't leave her alone on the counter so my wife became annoyed that she wasn't able to find the trash can. She lectured me on the importance of the placement of the trash can for about five minutes.

    Here's an example from her (in her words):

    He doesn't plan dinners or go to the grocery store. He's happy just stopping by the store and picking up dinner along with a few odds and ends, daily. I like to go to the store and purchase at least a weeks worth of groceries. I like to have dinners planned out so I know we have all the ingredients. I expect him to do the same, and when he doesn't I get very upset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonCoryon View Post
    Thank you for all the replies.

    I kind of picked up on the vibe that everyone took my question as my marriage is in dire straights and divorce is on the brink. However, this is not the case. Really I would describe our problems as consist bickering. Second, we rarely if ever agree on anything. And the third we tend to talk past each other.

    I'll give some quick examples.

    Yesterday I went around the house collecting trash from all the rooms. I placed the bathroom trash can on the oppisite side of the bathroom that it is "supposed" to go. She was brushing our baby daughter's teeth and needed to throw something away. She couldn't leave her alone on the counter so my wife became annoyed that she wasn't able to find the trash can. She lectured me on the importance of the placement of the trash can for about five minutes.

    Here's an example from her (in her words):

    He doesn't plan dinners or go to the grocery store. He's happy just stopping by the store and picking up dinner along with a few odds and ends, daily. I like to go to the store and purchase at least a weeks worth of groceries. I like to have dinners planned out so I know we have all the ingredients. I expect him to do the same, and when he doesn't I get very upset.
    Socionics only goes so far. I still believe healthy people of any 2 types can get along.

    My soundest, simplest advice for you. If you want to make your marriage work, see a marriage counselor. Learn how to communicate better, etc. Seek people with credibility, not randomly asking people on the internet how to improve the most important relationship in your life. Most people's relationships here are less than stellar. Take advice from someone with the fruit on the tree.

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    Hey DonCoryon, I'm also in a conflict relationship, except with an ESFp. Since you asked for suggestions I'll give advice that worked well for my marriage.

    -Patience, patience, patience. We have so much more of it now in contrast to when we met, but the more we practice the easier it is to realize that the other is just being themselves and not intending to be offensive or irritating.
    -The more we learn about each other and the way the other thinks(becoming familiar with each others Socionic type also helped to an extent) aids us to see the other perspective on a situation when we would normally be boggled at each other's actions/behavior/reasoning. Doing this makes it easier to cultivate patience which in turn makes it easier to downplay the initial reaction to the "offense" of the other. This perpetuating cycle has been grease on the wheels of our relationship and has made our lives together more enjoyable.
    -Improving communication was vital; adopting particular techniques in the way we phrase things as well as practicing the advice "seek first to understand, then to be understood" helped us immensely.

    Seeing you are parents I'm including the following side notes:
    -Try to make time for yourselves as individuals every now and then. An hour a day is ideal but at least once a week can work. Some examples in our case are times my wife tries to give me the house to myself for a few hours or I'll let her go hang with her girl friends. This helps alleviate some of the stress of parenthood and life in general so we're less prone to irritability.
    -Make time to do something together you both enjoy, or share an experience you've both wanted to try. The more we place our focus on our similarities rather than our differences the easier it is to keep our relationship strong.

    To each his own, though, so take what looks promising for your situation. Welcome to the forum, by the way.

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    Hi again, Don C. I'm not sure that people concluded your marriage is in dire straits. My understanding is that one of the major issues with couples/counseling/divorce is the couple waits too long to seek help. And in my experience, things can go from looking okay to not-okay VERY quickly. When/if that happens, it's good to have a support system already in place and to have already learned some things about working together on the marriage.

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    *truck uses his divine shaman wisdom to help*

    The reason you do not have a good relationship is because you're probably putting too much emphasis on the opposites attract thing. Yes, opposites attract @ first. You probably jumped in the relationship way too quickly because of this. And then kept psychologically and emotionally clashing the more you expressed things that really mattered to you. A relationship isn't a business/finance. Be with the person cuz u enjoy and really like them, not just for the comfort and social image/security they can provide.

    Also you have to really love yourself sooo much before you're ready to love another person, I think that cliche is so true but I know it can be annoying to hear. Otherwise you will use other people to think that they can make you happy but they really can't. and otherwise you will live a dreadful, miserable/sorry life with small moments of happiness when people decide to love you but you're waiting on somebody else to do it. But when you love yourself, the other people you get involved with will be people who enhance who you are instead of 'complete you.'

    You can always do it quicker and easier before somebody else can. That's the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonCoryon View Post
    Thank you for all the replies.

    I kind of picked up on the vibe that everyone took my question as my marriage is in dire straights and divorce is on the brink. However, this is not the case. Really I would describe our problems as consist bickering. Second, we rarely if ever agree on anything. And the third we tend to talk past each other.

    I'll give some quick examples.

    Yesterday I went around the house collecting trash from all the rooms. I placed the bathroom trash can on the oppisite side of the bathroom that it is "supposed" to go. She was brushing our baby daughter's teeth and needed to throw something away. She couldn't leave her alone on the counter so my wife became annoyed that she wasn't able to find the trash can. She lectured me on the importance of the placement of the trash can for about five minutes.

    Here's an example from her (in her words):

    He doesn't plan dinners or go to the grocery store. He's happy just stopping by the store and picking up dinner along with a few odds and ends, daily. I like to go to the store and purchase at least a weeks worth of groceries. I like to have dinners planned out so I know we have all the ingredients. I expect him to do the same, and when he doesn't I get very upset.
    I think it's possible you're not in a conflict relationship but in a activity relationship. Activity is a lot of fights too and there is generally a total difference in worldview and outlook, however, it's not the total antithesis and incompatibility that conflict can be.

    Why don't you talk about what's good about this relationship, that might help us see why you two are together. I often see INTP MBTI as either INTj or ENTp socionics, especially a socially introverted ENTp.

    I find that the problems with conflict relationships causes psychological distance that can often make it hard for people to even be in the room together, while activity results is more of a constant bickering in day to day activity but a relationship of compatibility in leisure.

    Note I'm taking a skeptical viewpoint here and have limited info, so this is neither conclusive or decisive.

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    comfortable conflict relations is doing some activity. The other person will feel comfortable being themselves and then you can superficially mingle around the activity you're engaged in. Even if you're just doing your own thing in their vicinity. Otherwise it's fake and awkward the entire time. You'll sway between wanting to like the person to feeling justified in hating them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by under the bridge View Post
    Hey DonCoryon, I'm also in a conflict relationship, except with an ESFp. Since you asked for suggestions I'll give advice that worked well for my marriage.

    -Patience, patience, patience. We have so much more of it now in contrast to when we met, but the more we practice the easier it is to realize that the other is just being themselves and not intending to be offensive or irritating.
    -The more we learn about each other and the way the other thinks(becoming familiar with each others Socionic type also helped to an extent) aids us to see the other perspective on a situation when we would normally be boggled at each other's actions/behavior/reasoning. Doing this makes it easier to cultivate patience which in turn makes it easier to downplay the initial reaction to the "offense" of the other. This perpetuating cycle has been grease on the wheels of our relationship and has made our lives together more enjoyable.
    -Improving communication was vital; adopting particular techniques in the way we phrase things as well as practicing the advice "seek first to understand, then to be understood" helped us immensely.

    Seeing you are parents I'm including the following side notes:
    -Try to make time for yourselves as individuals every now and then. An hour a day is ideal but at least once a week can work. Some examples in our case are times my wife tries to give me the house to myself for a few hours or I'll let her go hang with her girl friends. This helps alleviate some of the stress of parenthood and life in general so we're less prone to irritability.
    -Make time to do something together you both enjoy, or share an experience you've both wanted to try. The more we place our focus on our similarities rather than our differences the easier it is to keep our relationship strong.

    To each his own, though, so take what looks promising for your situation. Welcome to the forum, by the way.
    Very good advice, thank you. I'm going to let her read your post and then we'll discuss together.

    Quote Originally Posted by snoreKill View Post
    Hi again, Don C. I'm not sure that people concluded your marriage is in dire straits. My understanding is that one of the major issues with couples/counseling/divorce is the couple waits too long to seek help. And in my experience, things can go from looking okay to not-okay VERY quickly. When/if that happens, it's good to have a support system already in place and to have already learned some things about working together on the marriage.
    You do make some good points. I'm hesitant to seek actual marriage counseling. I'm like that with medical as well. I don't go to the doctor until something is major, even then I'll procrastinate a bit.

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    I have finally come to the conclusion that I am an ILI, based on a careful examination of how I intertype with others, by looking at the Reine (sp?) dichotomies, and a careful absorption of the concept of Dual Seeking and the Hidden Agenda. Many people here initially typed me as LII, the ILI's quasi-identical but my Ti function seems to be my demonstrative function, which I use quite a bit.

    Anyway, my best friend is an ESE, and our relationship is based solely on common interests, in no way can we build a life together.

    As long as we both use our powerful demonstrative functions (the 8th function), we can enjoy each other’s company. This is because the 8th function matches to the conflictor’s dual seeking.

    Our relationship grows strained whenever we need our Dual-Seeking to be satisfied by something more than idle subconscious (8th function) chit chat. When I need dual seeking, or when he needs it, we cannot help each other. As dual seeking relates to confidence, we are limited in our ability to get each other unstuck from life's funks. We could argue very easily.

    He sees my "real" dual seeking as both parasitic and narcissistic. His reaction is aggressive, intended to repel me from him, if I "really" dual seek. I see his "real" dual seeking as naive (for an ESE, his dual seeking is Ti) I constantly view him as a sucker, or worse, a fucking pussy when he uses Ti.
    There is absolutely no sympathy between us. We have the good taste not to hurt each other, (he did attack me physically when he was high once...) and we are polite whenever we see each other. BUT, we talk less and less. We talked all we could about similar life experiences, and similar interests. That lasted about six years. Now it is down to socionic factors and we rarely talk. He does not tell me about his vacations, or new friends. The danger of him lashing out at me is pretty high.

    How do I relate to him - I simply believe with all my heart that we are each a gift from god to each other, that we are a rare meeting of the minds. I use other people for the vital suggestive stimulation. I refuse to air any of my serious DS needs near him. I am polite with his pitiful DS, and change the subject. We were very close, but now we rarely speak to each other. We are growing rapidly distant, as our "common interests" are not strong enough to bond us together.

    You must use your 8th function. You can engage your 8th function by being very idle, or comically/cynically bored. The 8th function is the wry sardonic smile each of us have inside us. Be idle and chat about life, while listening carefully for the Dual Seeking that will provoke you. When you hear it, do not attack it, just smile at the sound of it and continue to be a friend. Say something nice. Use the "bored" but engaged 8th function and I think you will be able to survive. It can work, I would bet entropy will set in and the relationship will grow colder over time.

    Agree to do things you hate with your spouse, that might help too. Most of those things are related to the spouses DS function.

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    My sister in law in an INFj and her husband a ESTp, so also they are in a Conflicting relationship. They have young children and want a peaceful home for them though this can be hard for them. They really do much, much better when they DON'T spend extra time together, as Director Abbe suggested. Spaces are helpful! Avoiding conflict: a good thing!

    Marista can confirm this, but my understanding is that a "j" and a "p" will always "they live in different life rhythms", whihc sets you up for conflict. This was the case with my ex, also a "j" and I did my best to conform to his life rhythm, as I had to do this at work anyway where "j" is valued and my field was glutted with "j"'s. "Life Rhythm" is something you can be aware of and coordinate, make adjustments to. In my sis-in-laws case, her husband makes NO adjustments whatsoever and refuses to acknowledge how not planning and always being late is such a cross for his wife. I often think a little adjustment on both their parts - and understanding each others different orientations - would make life a lot easier of them.

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    I second this advice: create some distance between the two of you and things will be more peaceful. If you can make sure that your needs are being met by a) yourself, as B&D said, and b) other friends and family, this will got a long way towards NOT growing resentful of your partner for not meeting your needs. I know a conflict couple SLE/EII who are currently in marital therapy (after 20+ years of a pretty bad marriage) and it's not going well but if they do stay together, which they probably will because they have an entire life together including children, they will just need to lower their expectations. They'll never be soul mates, they'll never really be able to work together, they'll have to take things lightly and learn to laugh at the problems, enjoy the 2 or 3 things they like to do together and the couple friends they share, or else give up altogether.

    I also know a dual marriage SLE/IEI that broke up after 15 years due to infidelity and unhealthiness with both individuals. So... there's NEVER a guarantee, no matter what one's type.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I second this advice: create some distance between the two of you and things will be more peaceful. If you can make sure that your needs are being met by a) yourself, as B&D said, and b) other friends and family, this will got a long way towards NOT growing resentful of your partner for not meeting your needs. I know a conflict couple SLE/EII who are currently in marital therapy (after 20+ years of a pretty bad marriage) and it's not going well but if they do stay together, which they probably will because they have an entire life together including children, they will just need to lower their expectations. They'll never be soul mates, they'll never really be able to work together, they'll have to take things lightly and learn to laugh at the problems, enjoy the 2 or 3 things they like to do together and the couple friends they share, or else give up altogether.
    ..
    For what its worth, a Catholic take on this. You might find it interesting. One main goal of marriage is for the husband and wife help each other get to heaven. And what sacrifice you are making to give up yourself for your spouse as you make concessions for their different world view. Your sacrifice will be rewarded, because you cannot out-give God.

    And who benefits by your sacrifice? Your children, every time you increase the peace in the household by giving up something of yourself. To give of yourself and to sacrifice is to imitate Christ. You are closer to heaven!

    As from the Sermon on the Mount: Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs in the Kingdom of God.

    One Catholic couple I know say they help each other get to heaven one way or another, sometimes they are each others living purgatory on earth, reducing any time they may have to put in later! Heaven comes quicker!

    The danger of a dual relationship is laziness; its so easy. So you will avoid this danger. Your relationship is a challenge. So, why not meet it?

    And there are worse things than conflict. Like being the Supervisee in a Supervison relationship, so say some Socionics writers, and I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor Socionics PhD View Post
    Well, that would be too selfish.
    LOL

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    -Don't expect her to use any type of introspection, other than Si-related things, so if anything indulge her hedonism and rid yourself of the notion that you can provide her with foresight and wisdom. She won't accept or understand the merit.

    -Your rationale and logical conclusions mean more to her than any facts you could elaborate on. Place priority on assembling the knowledge you understand rather than the knowledge itself.

    -Sarcasm.

    -Use Analogies instead of Allusions.

    -Spend less time elaborating on context and conditions.

    -Read Merry/Serious dichotomy. Always joke in serious conversations.

    -And beat her. Or else she'll cheat on you. Well, im half kidding.

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    Quick reply: If you think more information/understanding things better helps, try learning about the Enneagram too (it should also help you find out more about your style of handling issues/tackling challenges). There is more to personality than Socionics and it seems less duality-focused. Also attitude helps. Depending on what you see your life purpose as, you can try to focus on those things (within trying to make things work) and find a beneficial way of treating matters. I've been surprised by conflictors. Coming off of just learning Socionics I had a pretty narrow view to start. Their using their strong points can be great.
    Last edited by meals; 01-25-2012 at 07:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Hi,

    They aren't good. And, they get worse over time. More specifically, the ESE/ESFj is oriented towards Si not Se; they could care less about being optimally productive or oriented to do things as ILI/INTp suggests Te to them and they can't and don't want that.
    Maritsa,

    I just discovered this particular thread and am a little confused by your response here. The ESFj (I believe I have him typed properly) with whom I'm involved is all about being optimally productive, which is the opposite of what you describe. He's an early riser, happy to greet every day, and ready to tackle the projects on his plate head-on. He can't sit still. It's quite impressive to me just how much he's able to accomplish in a given day. You state however that the ESFj "could [sic] care less about being optimally productive." Are we talking about the same person here?


    FF
    5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeloniousFunk View Post
    Maritsa,

    I just discovered this particular thread and am a little confused by your response here. The ESFj (I believe I have him typed properly) with whom I'm involved is all about being optimally productive, which is the opposite of what you describe. He's an early riser, happy to greet every day, and ready to tackle the projects on his plate head-on. He can't sit still. It's quite impressive to me just how much he's able to accomplish in a given day. You state however that the ESFj "could [sic] care less about being optimally productive." Are we talking about the same person here?


    FF
    I made an error they are very productive but with a sense of pleasure like reward

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I made an error they are very productive but with a sense of pleasure like reward
    emily-litella-nevermind.jpg
    5 planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus & Mars. Probably not a shrinking violet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonCoryon View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I recently found Socionics. I was surprised to see my wife and I have the worst match up, all the information regarding conflict relations rang true. I just finished reading the collection of articles on this site that offered some insight into our relationship. However, I was hoping that anyone with experience in this type of relationship (marriage) could offer advice, tips, or anecdotal stories that may help improve our relationship. Thank you.


    Before getting into how terrible conflict relations are................... how sure are you that such is the case anyway? are you really ILI and ESE?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    2 EVIL I golden's Avatar
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    Oh dear God this guy made 6 posts in the year 2011 but I'm sure he'll hop right back in here to answer questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonCoryon View Post
    Hello everyone,

    I recently found Socionics. I was surprised to see my wife and I have the worst match up, all the information regarding conflict relations rang true. I just finished reading the collection of articles on this site that offered some insight into our relationship. However, I was hoping that anyone with experience in this type of relationship (marriage) could offer advice, tips, or anecdotal stories that may help improve our relationship. Thank you.
    yes i've been in such a relationship, twice actually.

    same subtypes work best. differing subtypes worst.
    according to a study, the comfort of a conflict relation is actually not that bad.
    conflictors also have some Mutual attraction, it's not the worst of relations, though also clearly not the best.

    the thing you can improve is to keep a more polite distance, you are just to different with norms and values. so once you know this, it's also good.
    also, the intp tends to think of the esfj as mean/evil at times, and the esfj tends to think the intp is egoistic.
    i know a couple that quit living together and live separately now, but they are still in love and travel a lot together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenbane View Post
    Oh dear God this guy made 6 posts in the year 2011 but I'm sure he'll hop right back in here to answer questions.
    goddamned, yes, close this fucking thread. i just answered for nothing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    according to a study, the comfort of a conflict relation is actually not that bad
    In converntional sense - it's bad. People have much of personal interest and look decent on distance. But when you begin to trust and act freely like with friend, - you easily cross the line of acceptable for the conflictor. To be in close communication and in the same time the need to adopt to alien norms is tiresome. Conflictors are the most tiring people. Also you understand a lot of care the conflictor needs, but get rather small return support (in the form you need it) - so the situation is perceived like relations satisfy lesser than you expend on them.

    it's not the worst of relations
    For friendship - the worst. Even annoying superego is easier to deal as you better understand them. It's not the worst on formal communication distance as people are too different to cause troubles. On such distance you perceive them as interesting, pleasant people reminding activators.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    In converntional sense - it's bad. People have much of personal interest and look decent on distance. But when you begin to trust and act freely like with friend, - you easily cross the line of acceptable for the conflictor. To be in close communication and in the same time the need to adopt to alien norms is tiresome. Conflictors are the most tiring people. Also you understand a lot of care the conflictor needs, but get rather small return support (in the form you need it) - so the situation is perceived like relations satisfy lesser than you expend on them.

    For friendship - the worst. Even annoying superego is easier to deal as you better understand them. It's not the worst on formal communication distance as people are too different to cause troubles. On such distance you perceive them as interesting, pleasant people reminding activators.

    I was telling an SEI (whom I like) what I thought was a funny story, and about halfway through, her expression changed from smiling interest to horrified revulsion. It's a good thing she has an ILE to talk to, to clear her mind of whatever happens there when she talks to me.

    I told the same story to people of other types, and they pretty much responded by type. An ESI laughed, an SLE started on his own story to one-up, and an SLI half-laughed and looked at me like I was an idiot.

    One cannot simply speak and expect that everyone will hear the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I was telling an SEI (whom I like) what I thought was a funny story, and about halfway through, her expression changed from smiling interest to horrified revulsion. It's a good thing she has an ILE to talk to, to clear her mind of whatever happens there when she talks to me.

    I told the same story to people of other types, and they pretty much responded by type. An ESI laughed, an SLE started on his own story to one-up, and an SLI half-laughed and looked at me like I was an idiot.

    One cannot simply speak and expect that everyone will hear the same thing.
    You always have good insights, Adam.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


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    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
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    Adam, give us the story or it didn't happen.


    Just curious. I need more gamma darkness reference points... for something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post



    For friendship - the worst. Even annoying superego is easier to deal as you better understand them.
    @goldenbane do you find that your LSE ex got annoyed in dealing with you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    @goldenbane do you find that your LSE ex got annoyed in dealing with you?
    We actually got along okay a lot of the time and he never said he found me annoying and only rarely acted put out with me. I don't think annoying is the word I'd use to describe our interactions. There were these mid- to long-term life direction problems. We blended okay over the short term but had a hard time coordinating our efforts over the long term. We weren't really sexually compatible, and it was hard to achieve intimacy and deeper trust.

    There was an IEI among the people working for him, just one of the loveliest people you'll ever meet, and "annoyed" was exactly how he acted in dealing with her, because she was so weak in administration that he found he was having to clean up her messes, and when he put procedures in place she did not follow them. Eventually she quit and he replaced her with an LSE, and he raved about how wonderful the LSE was. I told him that was all well and good but that from the standpoint of the people actually being served by the person in that position, this new LSE was very unfriendly and didn't seem knowledgeable either (because she was too young for them job). He said he didn't care because it was more important to not have to deal with these daily problems. Within two years the program she was running was running a deficit and the whole thing had to be revamped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    In converntional sense - it's bad. People have much of personal interest and look decent on distance. But when you begin to trust and act freely like with friend, - you easily cross the line of acceptable for the conflictor. To be in close communication and in the same time the need to adopt to alien norms is tiresome. Conflictors are the most tiring people. Also you understand a lot of care the conflictor needs, but get rather small return support (in the form you need it) - so the situation is perceived like relations satisfy lesser than you expend on them.



    For friendship - the worst. Even annoying superego is easier to deal as you better understand them. It's not the worst on formal communication distance as people are too different to cause troubles. On such distance you perceive them as interesting, pleasant people reminding activators.
    I find it sad that you antagonize me all because you think I am EIE and have given yourself the right to mistreat me and find fault which you choose to associate with super ego relationship. It isn't. The problem is you and how you decided to treat me despite type, despite being human, and because you think I'm not EII therefore I'm not worthy of being treated well. These are manufactured problems by you.

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