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Thread: Quotes and Information Elements

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    Professional Turtle Taknamay's Avatar
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    Default Quotes and Information Elements

    This may have been partially inspired by the describe your PoLR thread.

    So, this is basically an interesting thing I was thinking about. I mention a quote, and people have to decide if there's an IM element (or possibly a function location) that can be associated with it.

    First one:

    "I see everyone else doing this. I guess I should copy them."
    Last edited by Taknamay; 11-11-2011 at 06:22 PM.
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    "I see everyone else doing this. I guess I should copy them."
    That sounds like the Role function, actually (and maybe to a lesser extent the Mobilizing function). The IE would be related to what they were doing. For example:

    "I see everyone else is having red wine with their meal. I guess I should copy them." = Si.
    "I see everyone else is filing these papers a certain way. I guess I should copy them." = Te.


    I like this game.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Professional Turtle Taknamay's Avatar
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    Ah, I see. That's a good point. And I'm glad you like this game

    "I'm going to wear my pants backwards today and keep track of how many people notice."
    All the good are friends of one another. (Zeno of Citium)
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    oh God.

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    Professional Turtle Taknamay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    oh God.
    Well, if nobody is interested in that one... I wonder if people would also be interested in non-quote concepts? For example, which element do you think has the most to do with motion? I would say because it's related to force.
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    "I'm going to wear my pants backwards today and keep track of how many people notice."
    Definitely Ne -- Intuition of Alternate Possibilities. Possibly with Ti backing it up (the "keeping track" part sounds like a logical statistical analysis).



    Motion, on the other hand, is actually primarily related to Te. Se observes the static force/strength present in objects; Te observes the dynamic motion present in moving/changing objects. Te + Si, in particular, would deal with physical motion. Te + Ni tends to deal with motion on a larger, more abstract scale.


    Ignore Poli. Some people around here are unwarrantedly condescending.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    i don't see alpha NTs being quickly inclined to do that at all.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labocat View Post
    i don't see alpha NTs being quickly inclined to do that at all.
    The irrational subtypes of Alpha NT say stuff like that all the time. Whether or not they'd actually do it is another question entirely. LIIs especially would probably be too self-conscious to actually try it, unless they were in a highly emotionally "safe" environment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    "This thread is fucking stupid."

    gogogo
    I was wondering how long it would take before you showed up with a line like that. Now that I have a better understanding of your version of socionics, it all makes sense.

    For the record, I agree, in your version of socionics this thread is stupid and fundamentally wrong-headed. But in the "Rick/Expat/Marie84/Krig the Viking" version of socionics (which in my opinion is closer to "Augustan" socionics than your version), this thread makes complete sense and is a useful and instructive exercise.

    One of these days I'll have to finish my big long post for the "Schools of Thought in Socionics" thread, so I can better explain what I mean.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    IMO

    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    "I see everyone else doing this. I guess I should copy them."
    IMO, it's introversion and the function depends on the context. If you said "I should copy them." that sounds like Fi. If it's "I guess I should copy them." that sounds like Ni. If it's "I will copy them." that sounds like Ti. If it's "I'm copying them." that sounds like Si.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    "I'm going to wear my pants backwards today and keep track of how many people notice."
    No function. It depends on why they are doing it. What are they going to do with that information and why do they think they want it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    I was wondering how long it would take before you showed up with a line like that. Now that I have a better understanding of your version of socionics, it all makes sense.

    For the record, I agree, in your version of socionics this thread is stupid and fundamentally wrong-headed. But in the "Rick/Expat/Marie84/Krig the Viking" version of socionics (which in my opinion is closer to "Augustan" socionics than your version), this thread makes complete sense and is a useful and instructive exercise.

    One of these days I'll have to finish my big long post for the "Schools of Thought in Socionics" thread, so I can better explain what I mean.
    But why do you think your school of thought to be the best one? And please don't say you don't think that it is; if you prefer to use it over other schools of thought than please explain why so you can enlighten everyone else, please.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided View Post
    But why do you think your school of thought to be the best one? And please don't say you don't think that it is; if you prefer to use it over other schools of thought than please explain why so you can enlighten everyone else, please.
    In my opinion, it corresponds most closely with what I observe in real life, is the most internally consistent and consistent with Aushra's original theory, and has the greatest predictive power when it comes to behaviour and relationships. Presumably Ashton believes his theory for similar reasons (although I don't know if he cares about being consistent with Aushra), I just happen to think he's wrong. But "I'm right and you're wrong" is not a very useful mode of discussion; it's better to try to clearly understand how our ideas differ, and then compare how well the evidence fits each.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    The problem with these threads is that isolated quotes like "I see everyone else doing this, I guess I should copy them" are utterly devoid of context. What is it that everybody is doing? Why would he copy it? Is he not skilled at what it is they're doing and wants to learn? Does the person just want to fit in with the group? And so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    Which element do you think has the most to do with motion? I would say because it's related to force.
    Uhm, technically any dynamic IE is going to be more related to motion than anything else. I'm not even going to go into how isn't force.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Uhm, technically any dynamic IE is going to be more related to motion than anything else.
    There's a Ti-PoLR quote for you!

    Possibly also Te-HA (purposely using the definitions of motion and force that would make Taknamay's post sound dumb, ignoring the context of those words)
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divided
    IMO, it's introversion and the function depends on the context. If you said "I should copy them." that sounds like Fi. If it's "I guess I should copy them." that sounds like Ni. If it's "I will copy them." that sounds like Ti. If it's "I'm copying them." that sounds like Si.
    And "they should be copied" is Fe; "I guess they should be copied," it's Ne; "they will be copied" is Te; and "they are being copied" is Se? . How about "I guess they could be copied" for Ne!
    Warm Regards,



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    Krig is dim. I'd just let him go on with it, I don't think anyone cares.

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    Professional Turtle Taknamay's Avatar
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    But aren't all perceptions related to an information element, which processes the information aspects? I thought that was a fundamental part of Socionics...
    All the good are friends of one another. (Zeno of Citium)
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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    But aren't all perceptions related to an information element, which processes the information aspects? I thought that was a fundamental part of Socionics...
    Exactly. From what I understand, Ashton and some others have an alternate view of how all that works. Instead of seeing reality as being composed of different information aspects, which are processed separately in different information elements, they propose that each information element is like a "filter" which processes *all* information. So you tend to see people who follow that school of thought rolling their eyes and calling straightforward associations of aspects and elements (like we're doing here) "stereotypical" and "simple-minded", etc.

    Is that an accurate assessment of our differences, Ashton, or have I missed something?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    not a bumblebee octo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    Exactly. From what I understand, Ashton and some others have an alternate view of how all that works. Instead of seeing reality as being composed of different information aspects, which are processed separately in different information elements, they propose that each information element is like a "filter" which processes *all* information. So you tend to see people who follow that school of thought rolling their eyes and calling straightforward associations of aspects and elements (like we're doing here) "stereotypical" and "simple-minded", etc.
    Even if that were the case, wouldn't it make sense that individuals who use the same filter will tend to have similarities? Certain words, for example, tend to lend themselves well to Fe, and individuals with an Fe filter will use more of those words to express themselves since it's closest to their view of reality...
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asston View Post
    This. ↑
    Then why do you come in and call this thread (and all other attempts to correlate concrete examples of human behaviour and IEs) stupid?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    This thread demonstrates probably the most common problem when the majority of us attempt to clarify and categorize types: Bias and shallow associations about types and their focuses, that are too general to do with any specific type. These people need to experience more and realize they're similar to everyone else in a lot of ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asston View Post
    "The idea that you can take vague and brief statements like this, in singular isolation without any context or cross-reference whatsoever, and infer reliable judgments about 'what IE this indicates', is utterly ridiculous."

    and this kind of thinking poses an obstacle in the forums' learning.
    Last edited by 717495; 11-14-2011 at 09:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I think I already explained that:

    "The idea that you can take vague and brief statements like this, in singular isolation without any context or cross-reference whatsoever, and infer reliable judgments about 'what IE this indicates', is utterly ridiculous."

    To clarify, I'm not attacking the premise that IEs can avail themselves in what a person says—I agree w/ that and I've posted many examples of it myself. I'm only attacking the methodology as it's being practiced here in the thread atm.
    It's not like anyone in this thread so far has linked anything to a single element without indicating or implying some need for context. I think your problem with threads like this is that you generally approach it with the mindset of "Everyone is dumb, and therefore I will interpret everything mildly ambiguous in that light." If you assume everyone is somewhat intelligent, this thread makes a lot of sense - it's pretty much just picking out particularly indicative snippets of what might be in a "What's My Type" post.


    What is this related to?

    Person A: This idea is dumb. I don't like it.
    Person B: (ten minute explanation of why the concept is good)
    Person A: OK, I understand now, it's a great idea... but why didn't you tell me all that in the first place?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Kinda. I think information is IE-neutral until it's interpreted by a human mind.
    So what happens when it's interpreted by a human mind? What becomes of it? If I'm following you correctly, then you're talking about the inclusion of good and bad, is that right? I think that is an interesting observation, but the bit about information being IE-neutral is confusing me. What do you mean by that? How is it IE-neutral? Refer me to any source or reference if you can't be bothered to explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post
    This may have been partially inspired by the describe your PoLR thread.

    So, this is basically an interesting thing I was thinking about. I mention a quote, and people have to decide if there's an IM element (or possibly a function location) that can be associated with it.

    First one:

    "I see everyone else doing this. I guess I should copy them."
    so which information elements do you see in the quote that you provided?

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    As I've understood it:

    Stance 1: Consistent external behaviors exhibited represents a person's type.

    Stance 2: Perceptual filters defines type. External behaviors have correlation to perceptual filters.

    Conflict arises when: Behavior X is exhibited. Stance 1 perceives type X. Stance 2 doubts, argues for type Y, calls X non-type related or related to Z.

    There are pros and cons to both methods: The first could be criticized as MBTI-ish, but has clarity of typing as its advantage. The second could be criticized for its ambiguity, yet more.. holistic.

    In stance 1, subtypes and type changes are permitted. In stance 2, not so much.

    Type battles here seem to stem from these differences.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Ummm, I think anyone who disagrees that perceptual filters comprise determine Socionics type is not talking about Socionics, or Jung, or Information Metabolism.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Fine, I'll help you out since it looks like no one else is cooperating...

    Quote Originally Posted by Taknamay View Post

    "I see everyone else doing this. I guess I should copy them."
    IM I see are

    "I see" - static; could also be "he's playing with my toys." (static) perceives outward sensory data projected by objects. Unless objects change their appearance significantly, the impression will not change.

    Se watches, takes in something.


    "everyone else" -object of sense perception



    "doing this." -action

    That would be a conditioning an object; you do it with either labeling it with some quality, "a black man" or an action "doing"

    "I guess I should copy them." -a decision to act base on what one sees (perceives); that may be the tail end of consciousness hence Ti. The impetus to act is after a decision has been concluded by some means of rational judgement.


    It's not Te because Te focuses on what's being done with the object.

    "Those work well." That would kinda be Te. Or, "you would get a better response if you toned it down." "the reason why you're not like this is because of this."
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 11-15-2011 at 05:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    You might want to break that news to Krig, who claims to channel the ghost of Aushra and the power of the One True Socionics.
    Shut the fuck up and go jerk off on Psychological Types.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    hurrrr

    He's your antipode. You have to show him some respect or else you are even more full of shit than he is.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    You guys have known each other for a million years (in socionics relationship standards), but still can't love and get along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You guys have known each other for a million years (in socionics relationship standards), but still can't love and get along.
    I can't hug ashton, his manly chest is too broad, and my embrace could never envelop his soaring infantile ego.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Yes they did. Krig said that "I'm going to wear my pants backwards today and keep track of how many people notice." is "definitely Ne."
    And you disagree that, on the balance of probabilities, an Ne valuer is more likely to think that wearing their pants backwards would be an interesting idea?
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    And you disagree that, on the balance of probabilities, an Ne valuer is more likely to think that wearing their pants backwards would be an interesting idea?
    Ughhhh.

    This is why I hate people utilizing Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InkStrider View Post
    As I've understood it:

    Stance 1: Consistent external behaviors exhibited represents a person's type.

    Stance 2: Perceptual filters defines type. External behaviors have correlation to perceptual filters.

    Conflict arises when: Behavior X is exhibited. Stance 1 perceives type X. Stance 2 doubts, argues for type Y, calls X non-type related or related to Z.

    There are pros and cons to both methods: The first could be criticized as MBTI-ish, but has clarity of typing as its advantage. The second could be criticized for its ambiguity, yet more.. holistic.

    In stance 1, subtypes and type changes are permitted. In stance 2, not so much.

    Type battles here seem to stem from these differences.
    The word "consistent" makes stance 1 in practice identical to stance 2, especially since no one here is dumb enough to type by a single behaviour.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    Ughhhh.

    This is why I hate people utilizing Socionics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Whether an Ne valuer is likely to say that or not, is an irrelevant question. It's such a vague, acontextual scenario, that it's completely pointless to even consider. The only real reply I could give to it is, "well, it depends." I could easily hypothesize motives as to why an Se valuer might do that, too.
    "...and keep track of how many people notice." implies that the motive is mere curiosity. I've kind of noticed that you have difficulty reading between the lines sometimes, but more and more often now it's like you're purposely being obtuse.

    Even if you had trouble interpreting the motive of the speaker from that line, you could've said, "I think you want me to say Ne-valuer, but I can think of many reasons why an Se-valuer might do that, e.g." instead of posting in a thread just to be condescending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Even if there was a 60% likelihood that, ceteris paribus, such a statement is Ne valuing, there's still a remaining 40% that'd get mistyped Ne valuing.
    NO ONE TYPES AN INDIVIDUAL BY ONE SINGLE BEHAVIOUR. Except maybe Maritsa. But she's special, and we all recognise that. This is a good example of your "I will assume everyone is dumb" attitude. It's pretty obvious that the most anyone who has more tha minimal experience with socionics will do as a result of this thread, is if someone writes "I'm going to wear my pants backwards today and keep track of how many people notice" as part of a longer post in a Type Me thread, it will be flagged as somewhat indicativeof Ne valuing, in the middle of lots of other things which will all be considered in turn and eventually analysed holistically to point towards a typing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I didn't miss that part; "mere curiosity" isn't a tell-tale symptom of anything.
    It's a motive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    … you're going to lecture me about being condescending, after you just made an asinine assumption about what goes on in my head? Hahaha.
    own medicine etc. Why do you always choose condescending over constructive? Is it necessary for your ego or something? Help me understand your motive, Ashton, because to me (and a number of other people, it seems) that's the obvious answer.


    Well if you don't disagree with what I wrote above, what's wrong with saying a statement probably indicates Ne-valuing? That 60% probability (I'd argue it's higher, but anyway) is still useful, when used in conjunction with other things. And if you constructively noted that you should carefully consider motive, that would be useful for someone who is relatively new at this, when they're faced with a similar typing scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    That looks tasty, what is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    NO ONE TYPES AN INDIVIDUAL BY ONE SINGLE BEHAVIOUR.
    That's still no excuse, impo. We're not talking about someone's sociotype character, we're talking about if they're random or not, or like Krig's examples, if they don't know how to fill out paperwork or whatever it is, not type related. It's not even valuable to mention, because it doesn't "add up" to a type.

    Instead if people tried to understand the essential meaning of the information elements and then applied some concrete context to an interpretation, there would be less of an issue. "How" is a big word, how someone went about saying they're going to put their pants backwards, the context, whereabouts, diologue, the whole picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    That looks tasty, what is that?
    So you DO want a cracker?

    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    That's still no excuse, impo. We're not talking about someone's sociotype character, we're talking about if they're random or not, or like Krig's examples, if they don't know how to fill out paperwork or whatever it is, not type related. It's not even valuable to mention, because it doesn't "add up" to a type.
    So you think it's completely random? I think you just expressed an opinion slightly different from Ashton's. Small steps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    So you DO want a cracker?
    What kind of cracker?

    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    So you think it's completely random? I think you just expressed an opinion slightly different from Ashton's. Small steps.
    No I didn't actually, you must have not read what either of us said.

    Also you apparently have little knowledge of my opinions, maybe you're being influenced too much by Gilly's fabricated drama.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    For instance, I can easily think of real-life examples like Sacha Baron Cohen, Vito Acconci, and Marina Abramovic—all Ne-devaluers whose work involves doing unusual things in public, and recording what people noticed. Granted, I don't know any of them ever wore their pants backwards, but the principle here of "do something weird, see if people notice" is the same.
    Also know plenty (being most) Ne valuers who don't. Most people, everyone. There's this stereotype that Ne types are supposed to be more wacky or something, along with Alpha NTs being ingenious and Gamma NTs making big money, blah blah etc. I don't even want to bring up delta ones.

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