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Thread: Kindred relations: ESFj - ENFj (ESE-EIE)

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Default Kindred relations: ESFj - ENFj (ESE-EIE)

    So I'm trying to put together some advice and ideas of what to expect, for an ESE who is going out with an EIE. I've found some resources, including a long article by Stratievskaya, but I'm trying to get as many perspectives as possible, so if anyone here has some personal experiences they've seen in real life, I would be interested to hear them!
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Hiding Typhon's Avatar
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    Ive had two ESE friends. One was the Fe subtype and was my best friend back in Las Vegas. We got along great, he was like a brother to me. We would make jokes and laugh for hours on end, wed go on adventures together, to parties to sex shops lol - I remember the one time he was bent on buying a plastic vagina. He was also a big chick magnet. We're still in touch through facebook.

    The other was an Si subtype I knew online for a while and I felt really comfortable around him though when got into a closer interaction he made me extremely uncomfortable and became unbearable. He had a crush on me(he was bi) and wouldnt stop pretending to initiate physical contact even after I told him I wasnt interested in him that way, we decided we could still be friends though I thought wrong. he turned into more and more of an asshole as I knew him he would insult me in the brashest way possible then said I lacked humor etc. Then he would pretend to wrestle with me and punch me which made me feel uncomfortable(extremely) as I dont like being touched usually unless its by a female, and the way he did it seemed hostile. I broke off my friendhsip with him.

    I must say that both of them were very loyal people even if they had a large circle of friends.
    Last edited by Typhon; 11-02-2011 at 01:49 AM.

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    Haikus
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    My mom and dad are ESE and EIE. I believe Ashton's mom and dad are as well. What would you like to know?

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poli View Post
    My mom and dad are ESE and EIE. I believe Ashton's mom and dad are as well. What would you like to know?
    Anything, really. Any type-related anecdotes that stand out, observations on how well/poorly the relationship works, etc. It's one thing to read a generalized description, and another to hear real-life examples and experiences.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    You guys probably have people mistyped. These relations aren't long lasting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You guys probably have people mistyped. These relations aren't long lasting.
    With enough self-control and lowered expectations, any relation can be long-lasting. My parents, for example, have been married for ~30 years, and they have a clear Super-Ego relationship (EII + LSI). It's not easy, and it's often not at all pleasant, but it can be done.

    Socionics doesn't remove human free will from the equation. All it does is predict the nature of the problems and benefits that will inevitably crop up when two psychological types interact closely.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    I dislike Super-Ego relations for me. However, you're talking about Kindred not super-ego.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I dislike Super-Ego relations for me. However, you're talking about Kindred not super-ego.
    Yes. I'm just saying, Super-Ego relations are even less likely to be long-lasting than Kindred relations, and yet with enough self-control and sacrifice, even they can be made to last. So just because a relationship is long-lasting doesn't necessarily mean it's not Kindred or Super-Ego or some other less compatible relation. You have to look at the whole picture of how the couple gets along, what sorts of problems they've had to deal with along the way, etc., before coming to a conclusion like that.

    If anyone else has examples an anecdotes from their life or that they've seen in people they know of ESE-EIE relationships, I'm still interested in hearing them!
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Not true, super-ego is more likely to last longer than kindred. The order of lasting is usually, duality, activity, conflictor, super ego, identical, illusionary, mirror, superving etc. I have the worst relations with NT's any of them. I have better relations with ST types, that only makes perfect sense.

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    Contrarian Traditionalist Krig the Viking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Not true, super-ego is more likely to last longer than kindred. The order of lasting is usually, duality, activity, conflictor, super ego, identical, illusionary, mirror, superving etc. I have the worst relations with NT's any of them. I have better relations with ST types, that only makes perfect sense.
    What are you basing this on?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krig the Viking View Post
    What are you basing this on?
    An experiment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    An experiment.
    Do you have a link to the results of this experiment, or is it more of a personal experiment you've done yourself?
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Personal stuff; I'll publish it when I get my masters degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Personal stuff; I'll publish it when I get my masters degree.
    Ah. Then given the rather drastic differences in how we type people, it's unlikely that I would find the results of your experiment convincing. Your conclusions certainly don't correlate with my own observations on the matter, or any of the other studies that have been done on the subject. My original opinion stands.
    Quaero Veritas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You guys probably have people mistyped. These relations aren't long lasting.


    You've got to be shitting me...
    ILE; INTP
    5w6 so; rcUe|I|;

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    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Hey guys, here's an idea; I'm Fi base type and I go around all day long, observing relations and now that I have an awesome tool, like Socionics at my disposal, I'm doing it with things like movies, too. (Sarcasm)

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    My best friend is ESE. It is kindred. We WERE the best friends ever. A true meeting of the minds, he was a gift from God. However, we cannot do anything together except relax. My mobilizing Se stimulates his mobilizing Ne; however, this stimulation turns into pie-in-the-sky talk about the future. I want to take action on my dreams, and when I do so, he becomes mortified with fear. He hates risks.

    Furthermore, I am a negativist. I tend to notice gaps in plans, gaps in defenses. This tends to hurt his feelings, he perceives me as criticizing him, when I am not.

    He tries to express his affection for me by attending to my every need. This affection needs to be treated as a gift, and praised. I do not even notice it and this often offends him.

    We have the same suggestive function, but it is expressed differently. He likes to experience Ti, but through the medium of his ego block which includes Si. This makes him like college for example. My suggestive Ti is expressed through self-study and reflection. I consider college to be monster needing to be tamed.

    He spends far to much money, FAR too much. This was also a major problem. Essentially, we are not friends now. We first became friends in 2002. We were best friends from 2006 to 2011. Now we are back to being friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    You guys probably have people mistyped. These relations aren't long lasting.
    Yes, fuck off.

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    My mum is ESE and my aunt is EIE (they aren't directly related). They were really good friends for about 15 years, hanging out mainly with large Alpha groups, then a beta element joined and drama ensued . My aunt predictably fueled the drama and my mum shied away, and eventually I think my mum decided my aunt was a bit too crazy for her and the group broke in two. They don't talk much anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agee The Great View Post
    Nobody here...besides me, seems to know what SLE is except for maybe Maritsa.

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    Everything you folks are saying is matching up pretty well with the descriptions I've found. Stratievskaya has a big long description of the ESE-EIE Kindred relationship here.

    Here's what I ended up writing to my ESE friend, based on Stratievskaya's article and various other sources (including this thread )...


    The ESFj type is known as The Enthusiast (also known as The Bonvivant), and I call the ENFj type The Dramatist (also known as The Mentor and The Actor). These two types have the same Base function (extraverted Feeling), which makes them both very passionate, emotional, and empathetic people. As with all Kindred types, this makes it very easy for them to understand each other and establish a connection. Typically the two find that their goals in life are quite similar, and they can respect each other's basic attitudes, which are quite similar to their own, even if the details are different. In the case of the ESFj Enthusiast and the ENFj Dramatist, both feel strongly about things like injustice and suffering, they can both be very empathetic to the feelings and struggles of others, and both want to make the world around them a better, happier place.

    The two types tend go about it in different ways, however. The ESFj Enthusiast has a very positive, optimistic view of the world, but is often worried that something is going to go wrong and wreck everything, and tries to prevent that from happening. The ENFj Dramatist is the opposite: he has a very negative, pessimistic view of the world, but has hope for the future and is constantly fighting to make that hope a reality. If the Enthusiast plays the song of life in a Major key, the Dramatist uses a Minor key.

    The ESFj Enthusiast is always trying to minimize trouble and conflict and unpleasantness, and create an atmosphere of emotional peace, harmony, and happiness: to her, life should be like a picnic, full of loving family and friends who are all happy and content and enjoying life. The Enthusiast works hard to try to reduce the amount of conflict and strife in her surroundings, and make that vision of life possible for herself and the people around her.

    The ENFj Dramatist, on the other hand, does not shy away from conflict and unpleasantness -- to him, life is a battlefield, a struggle to overcome. Without struggles and conflicts to overcome, life can become boring for the Dramatist. Victory is always over the next hill, but even when he succeeds in his quest and achieves all of his long-term goals, he finds he is not satisfied -- he must conquer the next hill, as well. And so on.

    After a while, this difference can become exhausting for both parties.

    During the early phases of a relationship, the ENFj Dramatist is often entertained and even refreshed by the Enthusiast's optimism and desire to fill every minute of life with joy and pleasure. But after a while, the Dramatist starts to feel that playtime is over now, and we should start getting back to the really important task of fighting the eternal struggle of life. The Enthusiast's emphasis on the daily details of living, like health and comfort and aesthetics, starts to feel claustrophobic, restrictive, even oppressive at times. As far as he's concerned, there are more important things in life, grander visions which must be pursued, and all of these mundane small-minded details are just getting in the way.

    For the ESFj Enthusiast, on the other hand, during the early phases, the Dramatist can often seem very noble and inspiring and heroic, questing after his grand vision of what life should be. His passion is infectious, and the Enthusiast can become caught up in his excitement. But after a while, the emotional battlefield of the Dramatist's life starts to be too much; enough battles have been fought, and now it's time to settle down and be happy and start enjoying life and living "happily ever after". But for the Dramatist, "happily ever after" would mean accepting the world as he sees it: dark and full of misery and unfinished quests. The Dramatist's tragic and melodramatic view of the world starts to weigh heavily on the Enthusiast, who feels that her happiness and enjoyment of life is being drained.

    Another aspect is that the ESFj Enthusiast has great difficulty predicting people's actions. Much of people's behaviour worries and sometimes even frightens her, because it seems confusing and even inconsistent. She is always afraid of insincerity and treachery, because she feels unable to detect it. Unpleasant surprises in general are difficult for the Enthusiast to deal with, because of her inability to foresee what will happen. Consequently, she often seems to panic over nothing, hoping that the people around her will step in and help her and solve the problem for her. The Dramatist doesn't understand this at all -- to him, it seems kind of selfish and maybe even cowardly.

    Neither type has very strong Logical functions, so neither partner tends to be very impressed with the other's logical arguments, and both find it difficult to come up with their own logical arguments to convince the other. They also have very different approaches to matters of practical business logic -- the ESFj Enthusiast tends to worry quite a bit about the small details, which the ENFj Dramatist finds short-sighted and pointless. But from her perspective, the Enthusiast sees the Dramatist's attitude to these matters as reckless and irresponsible. Ultimately, neither is able to help the other in this area.


    My ESE friend seemed to think it was an accurate description of their relationship so far.
    Quaero Veritas.

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