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Thread: Can anyone explain Episode 22 of Code Geass R2 to me?

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    Default Can anyone explain Episode 22 of Code Geass R2 to me?

    I keep puzzling over that... I can't really follow it. Does anyone really understand what's going on with it?

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    I think it has something to do with subtype shifting. What do you think?

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    OH MAN I LOVE THAT SHOW but I don't think I got up to 22... stopped at like R2 13 or something.

    When I catch up I'll let you know.. but what exactly do you mean by subtype shifting?
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    There are two points in the anime where Lelouch undergoes radical personal transformation, the end of the first episode of R1 and episode 22 of R2. In the first episode he gets his geass ("the power of the king"). In R2 Ep.22, he reacts to the Sword of Akasha, which will create a world without lies, by saying he rejects everything his parents believe, and invokes the will of humanity to destroy both the Sword of Akasha and them. Then he goes on a suicidal course in which he basically rejects all value for human life, from what I saw.

    What brought about the transformation? It's not clear. For that matter, if he is, as some here have suggested, an LSI, then why the emphasis on protecting his family, given protection is arguably Si and Si is his demonstrative function?

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    Perhaps he's SLI, lack of Fi-subtype, vengeance-driven motivation, and his masks falls as he gets closer to his objective.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
    Perhaps he's SLI, lack of Fi-subtype, vengeance-driven motivation, and his masks falls as he gets closer to his objective.
    That doesn't make much sense. He pledged to destroy Britannia, remember? Also, he rejects authority. SLIs embrace authority, as per positivist extroverted logic (per Gulenko). Also, he never shied away from venting his rage. Would an SLI give in to rage so easily?

    And finally, he ultimately commits himself to the future, criticizing those who cling to the past. Also, SLIs aren't as good at tactics as LSIs, because their alpha Ti isn't as strong. And if vengeance was important to him, he couldn't possibly be devaluing of Fi, because vengeance is a motivation.

    No mask is that strong, that it would become a person's entire life. And there is no such thing as a "lack of Fi-subtype".
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 10-27-2011 at 09:45 PM.

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    Anybody, but anybody, can want to protect something. An SLI feels they should protect whatever they have responsibility for. Lelouch protected his sister not because he felt responsible for her, but because he loved her. The central problem with Lelouch's character, as it relates to type, is because he exposes his true self. He lifts himself above any possible criticism of him, and thus becomes immune to the criticisms of any single type. He uses all his functions with impunity. However, he demonstrates clearly that he isn't a feeling type by criticizing others' intellect, and remarks to his father that wearing a mask is a sign of pragmatism. Now his father is INFJ, that is particularly evident in his search for a "kinder, gentler" world where motivations are transparent. He at once values Fi and devalues Se.

    Maybe we can settle the issue by taking stock of the respective grievances of forum members against Lelouch. I'll start with my own. He's indifferent to the fate of his comrades... he doesn't seem to care if they live or die. He's a coward... he hides behind a mask instead of revealing his true identity, even to his friends. If he had been more forthcoming, the Black Knights probably would not have turned against him. I'd contrast him with Schneizel, who is probably INTJ. Lelouch himself conceded he had no right to kill Schneizel, who had never meant him any harm.

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    Yes, Matrix 3 explains everything.

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    What do you mean?

    It seems to me that the key aspect of Lelouch's transformation is change of attitude towards authority. At the beginning of the series he is functioning under an assumed name, completely unwilling to leverage his title even to save his own life. Geass is, in fact, superfluous: Lelouch has so much power as the favored son of the king that his Britannian enemy will sacrifice themselves as per their worshipfulness of his father's ideology. Not to mention his ability to challenge the emperor's conservative stalwarts to think critically about themselves in those moments before he gives his commands. Take also into account his charisma and commanding presence, and Lelouch's geass becomes the biggest non-ability ever. At just about every instance where Lelouch employs Geass, there is an alternative solution. C2's gift is little more than an irrational belief in something that cannot be proven, yet nonetheless provides a boost in self-confidence that enables Lelouch to browbeat people into working against their own interests. Lelouch is a symbol of something larger than himself, rather as Zero or as a prince. For heaven to reach down and touch a person, and invoke them in a worthy purpose, even at great cost... it's hard to ignore. When Suzaku begins collaborating with him, Lelouch's star power is doubled: Suzaku's wild popularity confers a legitimacy upon Lelouch's pretensions that wins the hearts of Britannians. What appears to be the work of Geass might just as well be an effect of widespread cultural emphasis on a few key problems of note -- effectively, democracy at work.

    If Geass is the effect of Lelouch's embrace of and belief in his authority, then the sealing of his geass may represent brainwashing by his father, who wishes to make the entire world see him as its supreme ruler. Ultimately Charles' machinations end up with Lelouch having the potential for absolute rule, and it is this institutional authority that Lelouch embraces at the moment of his 2nd transformation, after giving up his "I". He embraces his role as a transformational progressive figure and defeats his father on his father's own terms, those of family responsibility. But it also seems that he reaches a little too far, and sees something in himself equally despicable. This sets him up psychologically for the Zero Requiem. As he said at the end of R2 episode 1, "those who are willing to take life should be ready to have their own lives taken". Lelouch becomes self-condemning and persuaded that the world would be better off without him. (not that Suzaku's criticism did him any favors). His reprieve of Schneizel affirms his regret of his past actions, and thus his self-contempt as a person who chose those actions.

    So it seems like there were three stages of his acclimation to Te.

    1st stage: he had authority but refused it.
    2nd stage: he accepted authority on his own terms.
    3rd stage: he accepted institutional authority and used force to secure it.

    In each case, he uses his obtained authority as a means to greater conquest and dominance.

    Of course, we could also go into his deceptiveness, which I don't think was related to his being LSI. I think the best argument for his being LSI was his incredible deductive ability, as demonstrated on the numerous occasions that he predicts others' arguments and tactics. That seems to me to represent Ti and Ne used in strictly practical contexts, with Ne operating as a scanner, rather than a virtualization agent. Lelouch never asks what might have been, or what's next. Like a sensor, he just takes it as it comes. He demonstrates valued feeling when he condemns his father in the Sword of Akasha: his insistence that a time when people accept life without lies "will never come" reflects his comfort with his own emotions, and it is questions over ethics, not unpopularity, that bedevil him the most.

    Still not seeing where subtype shifting comes into it, though.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 10-28-2011 at 11:59 AM.

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    Something I noticed about the authority acceptance thing: it comes in the name of justice. First there is injustice, then the mission to end it. The authority is the means to carrying out the mission.

    Lelouch's very participation in the Japanese rebellion is a rejection of cultural norms and a "misuse" of his Fi. In R2 Ep.1 he expresses dissatisfaction with the likely course of his life after leaving the academy. His culture offers him opportunity and ambitions (a thoroughly capitalist lifestyle as per his father's dictates) but he rejects this course at a cost to his own self esteem. Instead of seeing the world as just, he accepts its injustice and the lack of motivation which arises from trying to search for a just role in an unjust world. Ultimately justice must be created, not found, and power is the only way to bring this about. Lelouch destroys the old unjust world and creates a world of justice. It's more than rejection of Fi -- it's also rejection of Ti, which was the mask which prevented Fi's true face from appearing. As one of the elite, Lelouch was at odds: he saw injustice around him and deplored it, but he acted continuously in the name of the old order. For as long as he accepted the Ti he was given, he had to accept the Fi that was compatible with it. However through rejecting the Ti that closed off Fi, he was able to accept the Ti that enabled Fi. In service to Fi he abridged his conception of Te -- the "deal with the devil" -- in as much as it befit Fi. He accepted Te but only in as much as it didn't interfere with Fi.

    This has made me think about the possible dangers of socionics as it is presented in Model B. Supposedly the role function is informed by culture, but is this true or even wise?
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 10-29-2011 at 03:16 AM.

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