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Thread: On duality, marriage, and how much it really matters

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    Default On duality, marriage, and how much it really matters

    For background, I'm married to my dual, and our marriage has been really good and easy and has had longevity.

    But I know lots of people in non-dual marriages who also seem very happy and whose marriages have longevity.

    I feel like duality makes my marriage easier, but on the other hand there are things unrelated to scoinics involved that make my marriage easy too - similar views on politics, religion, how to raise children, etc.

    My friends who are in happy non-dual marriages talk about how they "work on" their marriages, by doing things like having regular date nights, spending certain amount of time each night talking about something other than their children, etc. My husband and I don't have to do anything like that or worry about it, but maybe their work is beneficial enough to make it even better than my easy dual marriage? I've only been in one marriage so I can't compare.

    The one thing I do feel confident about is that duality is not the end-all-be-all in relationships. I feel like people should, when they're young and of dating age like so many people here are, go out into the world and just date and enjoy themselves, without so much focus on type. What if there is a wonderful relationship with a non-dual available that you miss? What if you end up with a dual with whom you have such different views on religion or politics that you just sit and argue all the time, albeit argue very well and effectively due to compatible communication styles? And what if you've mistyped yourself, or the other person you're dating or not dating based on Socionics? It all seems very risky to me.

    (This is not based on any specific person. It's just a thought I had.)
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    I think duality is the basis of good compatibility, but it's not the only workable relationship. I'm not sure there are that many long term wonderful out of quadra relationships you can maintain without some major problems, especially at a really close psychological distances.

    I mean some people think relationships have intrinsic value, I tend to find them mostly a big waste of time, it's probably somewhere in between. It's not hard to meet people within one's quadra and establish a relationship with them.

    Imo find your dual, or someone you think is your dual, otherwise don't even consider soconics and just follow your heart.

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    without the nose Cyrano's Avatar
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    You are happy, not becuase he's your dual, It's because he's SLI, the Universal Type.
    ISTp
    SLI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
    You are happy, not becuase he's your dual, It's because he's SLI, the Universal Type.
    the swiss knife of types

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    Not saying this is necessarily true of any of the couples you know, Slacker, but imo it is not always easy to know how happy a "happy" couple is. A book called Uncoupling (sociological case studies) describes in detail a pattern I've observed to be true. A couple bound for divorce will at first not admit to themselves how dire things are. At some point, one or the other of them begins to articulate the reality to him/herself. Next, the person confides in someone else, but that person is usually outside the circle of people who regard him/her as a member of a couple ... can be a seemingly random person, or a lover. And so on.

    Over the years, I've seen a lot of supposedly stable, loving marriages appear to dissolve overnight. But they seemed so happy, people say.

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    I've seen that too. More often I think I've seen the "doth protest too much" thing though, where someone will go on and on, like over the top, about how wonderful and thoughtful and romantic her husband is, and continually gush, and then suddenly they'll break up.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    without the nose Cyrano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrano View Post
    the swiss knife of types
    I like that.
    ISTp
    SLI

    Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.

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    Another thing, whatever value there is to Socionics will exist regardless of whether you are focused on it and working toward it anyway. You will be naturally drawn to certain people, will naturally find some people easier to get along with, etc. If you just date and enjoy yourself, it doesn't mean you won't meet a dual. And if you do focus on socionics, it doesn't mean you will.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    I've seen that too. More often I think I've seen the "doth protest too much" thing though, where someone will go on and on, like over the top, about how wonderful and thoughtful and romantic her husband is, and continually gush, and then suddenly they'll break up.
    Yeah, the doth-protesters are always interesting. I'm not remotely anti-PDA, but do you really need to give your SO a giant sloppy fawning kiss and proclaim your love before you run every single small errand etc.? :\

    I think this pattern of denial can apply to more low-key couples, too, but it's just not quite as jarring to observe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    Another thing, whatever value there is to Socionics will exist regardless of whether you are focused on it and working toward it anyway. You will be naturally drawn to certain people, will naturally find some people easier to get along with, etc. If you just date and enjoy yourself, it doesn't mean you won't meet a dual. And if you do focus on socionics, it doesn't mean you will.
    That's true. I know that the one time I tried to apply socionics and date someone who was supposed to be socionically compatible it was weird. I didn't even like him, but had this crazy idea that it might work anyway, lol. That obviously crashed and burned. In general, I think people should be a little more relaxed about all of it. That's true whether they're trying to find the perfect socionics fit with someone, or some other idealistic measure. Perfection can only be admired from afar, as a standard that no person can live up to, and if that's what your heart is set on (either in a person or a relationship) you can only expect disappointment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    What if there is a wonderful relationship with a non-dual available that you miss?
    It also depends on how aware people are of their own reactions and how much experience they have of relationships so they can compare. I have a hard time dating non-duals nowadays because I painfully feel the incompatibility between us, it is uncomfortable and something is lacking. I mean just as a feeling, regardless of what socionics says. I can easily stop thinking about this socionics stuff when dating someone, but I cannot turn off my own awareness, at least not as easily. After all, socioincs predicts my own subjective reactions quite well. In that sense it is not socionics vs. just-follow-your-heart. Because they are often the same.

    What if you end up with a dual with whom you have such different views on religion or politics that you just sit and argue all the time, albeit argue very well and effectively due to compatible communication styles?
    This is of course possible. And I know lots of ILEs whom I am not particularly fond of. Duality is just one factor, but an important one. It's not like I am going after each dual I meet. But socionics gives me a good hint of whom I should try to get to know better. And it gives me great hope.

    And what if you've mistyped yourself, or the other person you're dating or not dating based on Socionics? It all seems very risky to me.
    Here again, it's not a matter of my feelings vs. socionics. They often go hand in hand. I meet an ILE, I type her ILE and I discover that I like being with her. Very often things go this way. If for some reason I dont' like being with her, then of course I wont date her. I would never date someone just because I think she is my dual, but often when I like to date someone she IS my dual. Socionics just confirms my own feelings again and again.

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    As I said to Slacker: I've been dating duals since I was 13. I'm socionically d000000med!
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I've been dating duals since I was 13. I'm socionically d000000med!
    Your life must be a burning hell of pain.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Your life must be a burning hell of pain.
    Seriously, all those duals? What could be worse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nowisthetime View Post
    It also depends on how aware people are of their own reactions and how much experience they have of relationships so they can compare. I have a hard time dating non-duals nowadays because I painfully feel the incompatibility between us, it is uncomfortable and something is lacking. I mean just as a feeling, regardless of what socionics says. I can easily stop thinking about this socionics stuff when dating someone, but I cannot turn off my own awareness, at least not as easily. After all, socioincs predicts my own subjective reactions quite well. In that sense it is not socionics vs. just-follow-your-heart. Because they are often the same.



    This is of course possible. And I know lots of ILEs whom I am not particularly fond of. Duality is just one factor, but an important one. It's not like I am going after each dual I meet. But socionics gives me a good hint of whom I should try to get to know better. And it gives me great hope.



    Here again, it's not a matter of my feelings vs. socionics. They often go hand in hand. I meet an ILE, I type her ILE and I discover that I like being with her. Very often things go this way. If for some reason I dont' like being with her, then of course I wont date her. I would never date someone just because I think she is my dual, but often when I like to date someone she IS my dual. Socionics just confirms my own feelings again and again.

    I totally agree. And I have to confirm that from my own experience once you've had a significant positive experience with duality, it's hard to go for something else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Seriously, all those duals? What could be worse?
    It's like eating a bowl of Lucky Charms with only marshmallow pieces in it. [/americanculture]
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Your life must be a burning hell of pain.
    yeah seriously. Each breakup must be horribly painful...
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorkaholicsAnon View Post
    yeah seriously. Each breakup must be horribly painful...
    Well, it could have been horrible every single time, but not necessarily. Good and bad relationships can in a rather good way, this depends on how it ends. (I mean without too many quarrels.)
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Your life must be a burning hell of pain.
    If there is a type that plays hard to get, it's ESI.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    OK well I'm pretty sure FDG knows I wasn't saying you should avoid dating your dual.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoomer View Post
    Your life must be a burning hell of pain.
    Indeed, especially from April to October, it can get pretty hot and sweaty in Italy.

    yeah seriously. Each breakup must be horribly painful...
    Eh, no, not really. With 2 of them we were really young and break-ups happen for futile reasons at that age (between 13 and 17). Another one was crazy, while one went to live abroad permanently short after we started dating, so in both cases there was some pain but definitely manageable. The last one I'm still dating since 4 yrs half.

    If there is a type that plays hard to get, it's ESI.
    What. They're among the only types that directly respond yes or no if you directly ask them out. How can that be hard to get.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Indeed, especially from April to October, it can get pretty hot and sweaty in Italy.
    That's exactly what I was talking about. Heat kills.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    My husband and I don't have to do anything like that or worry about it, but maybe their work is beneficial enough to make it even better than my easy dual marriage? I've only been in one marriage so I can't compare.
    Slacker, I think my perspective may be of BENEFIT to you. Har har har.

    Certainly spending more time working on the relationship would strengthen it! Kind of like the sports motto: "Hard work beats talent, if the talent fails to work hard." --> Hard work beats natural compatibility, if the natural compatibility fails to work hard.

    Maintaining any kind of relationship takes some amount of time, and effort. Generally, duality just takes less time than others. But certainly, if you put more time in, the relationship would get stronger, no matter what kind of natural compatibility exists. And non-duals putting in more time, would find the relationship stronger and more fulfilling, then duals who don't.

    In the duality description, it says, maintaining a dual relationship is less time-consuming, so that each person may spend more time on their own interesting activities. Do you want to spend more time on your own activities, or more time into the relationship? Do you want a stronger relationship? What do you want? Are you just speculating why non-dual relationships are stronger? If the last question is what you're looking for, it's simply because they've put more time into it.

    Do dumb kids who work hard, and study more, outperform smart kids? ALL THE TIME! Do hardworking, untalented people, get ahead of lazy, talented people in life? ALL THE TIME!

    Hope this benefits ya.

    So to answer the title of the thread, I think duality is one factor, and it helps, but how much does it matter? Overall, I'd say not very much. Finding someone similar in looks, age, background, views, maturity, intelligence, work ethic, goals in life, etc. etc., as you alluded to, is all very important as well.

    /THREAD ... ?

    I'd also generally agree, naturally dating around to find someone you like is the best way to go. What was the statistic? Over 40% of marriages are duality, and over 70% are same quadra... with the vast majority of people, 99%+, knowing nothing about socionics, but just subconsciously finding who they're most comfortable with, and being honest with themselves.

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    Marriage doesn't matter. Sex and love matters. Go out there and find your 'dual'

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    Ive experienced bad & good shit with duals but no religious disputes so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walker31 View Post
    Ive experienced bad & good shit with duals but no religious disputes so far.
    You gota uncover all your demons. LoL

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    After spending time with duals, I start to resent hot females who were not Infantile in romantic nature (Victims, especially).

    There was this particular EIE who was rather refined. She was dressed in black; black dress, a cute black belt, black high-heeled shoes (about 3.5-inch at least, no platform). She had dyed blond hair, was asian, fine facial features. Probably the perfect girl for Beta STs out there.

    She didn't smell right though. Her hair was not dyed in a pleasant manner (too artificially yellow, streaks of dark brown may help even out the tone... it'll be great if she used darker yellow as well), there were varicose veins behind her knees (sign of repressed anger), kept fidgeting her legs in an impatient manner, too much make-up, fake eye-lashes; disgusting. She has Si-PoLR, clearly.

    I don't suppose a Beta ST will care about this though. She really seems like a prize to be won, all dolled up, dressed up, held herself in an upright and impressive manner (not in an elegant or graceful manner though, like Delta NFs), and drew the attention of many guys (including me).

    After staring her down, my suspicions were confirmed: I will not deign to make love with a woman such as her. Hence while duality is an important factor, lack of conflictor-ship or opposing-quadra-ship might be actually more important. Reduce pain, firstly, then talk about pleasure.
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    I don't agree. I'm on the opposite viewpoint. Find your dual and get married before someone else does. I don't want "work" in a relationship; it should come naturally and not feel like "work"; "work" feels like another job and I don't want my home (a place of comfort) to be like a job.

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    *works on my next gameplay strategy*
    She is wise
    beyond words
    beautiful within
    her soul
    brighter than
    the sun
    lovelier than
    love
    dreams larger
    than life
    and does not
    understand the
    meaning of no.
    Because everything
    through her, and in her, is
    "Yes, it will be done."


    Why I love LSEs:
    Quote Originally Posted by Abbie
    A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't agree. I'm on the opposite viewpoint. Find your dual and get married before someone else does. I don't want "work" in a relationship; it should come naturally and not feel like "work"; "work" feels like another job and I don't want my home (a place of comfort) to be like a job.
    I feel the same way.

    Though if i can't have a dual, i'd be ok with a few other intertypes... (activity, identity maybe)
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker View Post
    Another thing, whatever value there is to Socionics will exist regardless of whether you are focused on it and working toward it anyway. You will be naturally drawn to certain people, will naturally find some people easier to get along with, etc. If you just date and enjoy yourself, it doesn't mean you won't meet a dual. And if you do focus on socionics, it doesn't mean you will.
    I think if it turns out that Socionics is in fact true, then people would naturally follow their hearts by being with their dual. If people are following their hearts and they continually pick a non dual over a dual, after interacting with them, then it throws the whole theory out the window.

    I think Socionics can be used as a tool to help your head make sense of your heart.

    I can see where you are coming from, that just because someone is a dual, doesn't necessarily mean he will be good for you. I recently broke up with my dual. We had a lot of issues before we got together. I thought, because I read that duality is supposed to be healing and helpful for personal growth, (and it did correct a lot of my faults, I wouldn't have learned the lessons he taught me from any other type of person) but it made me overlook a lot of the bad stuff. It may have given me false hope that things would change. I'm still not sure if things will turn good in the end. Or if things are just too fucked up to ever be reconciled. I've done all the growing and healing so far. The question now stands, will my dual grow up, so things can have a chance of working out? We'll just have to wait and see.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    I don't agree. I'm on the opposite viewpoint. Find your dual and get married before someone else does. I don't want "work" in a relationship; it should come naturally and not feel like "work"; "work" feels like another job and I don't want my home (a place of comfort) to be like a job.
    Maritsa, let's not confuse "work" with "effort". Any relationship requires some level of effort to be successful. I don't want to be rude, but want to see you happy; so I will say. Maybe that's why previous relationships for you have not worked out in the past, because you expect everything to be perfect?

    I don't know everything, and maybe that's over the line. But I DO know you come here often, brag about how your dating a new dual, and then, after 1-2 things go wrong, you breakup, and say they weren't your dual after all, or they're this and that. Maybe if you expected things to be less than perfect, you'd appreciate some of the little, unimportant things that normally drive you crazy, and you'd be happier, and make things able to work better in your relationships.

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    EoP and Wawa,

    If say all 3 of us were wrong about our typing, will you still believe in the concept of duality, despite not knowing your type, or the other person's type?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
    EoP and Wawa,

    If say all 3 of us were wrong about our typing, will you still believe in the concept of duality, despite not knowing your type, or the other person's type?
    Well, if I typed myself wrong and it turned out my dual wasn't my dual. I would ask myself, then wtf was all that about? Why were both our feelings so intense? It was the sheer intensity of the relationship that made me buy into duality. Intensity, and the fact that it turned out, he was right about everything. I was right about everything he was doing wrong too. It worked both ways. It seems like it is all too much of a coincidence for it to mean nothing.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reuben View Post
    EoP and Wawa,

    If say all 3 of us were wrong about our typing, will you still believe in the concept of duality, despite not knowing your type, or the other person's type?
    My take on this (and believe me the thought has crossed my mind) is that duality is such a unique interrelationship and interaction, that when it's duality, you KNOW it's duality. Like your life suddenly gets a lot easier, and there is mutual understanding almost without need for words (I say "almost" because I'm not sure since i haven't asked the duals what they think i'm thinking yet. I will once i get close enough to one to ask such a thing). It really does feel like the dual is mind reading you, and vice versa.

    So if you've experienced duality with someone, i feel that you are duals of some kind, you just need to figure out which pair.

    So yes I do believe in the concept of duality.


    Side note: you can have some inklings of duality in semi-duality and illusionary relationships too per my understanding, but once you spend a significant amt of time interacting with people of these relationships to you, you start getting bothered/offended/annoyed by some things that you care about a lot. Of course in duality there is also the potential for hurting each other (sometimes a lot... believe me, I've been there...) but it's not because they're annoying or seem selfish.

    From what i've gathered, in duality the hurtfulness usually stems from miscommunication of some sort (in particular when the people involved have been undualized for a while) or from defense mechanisms and doubts developed also from being undualized too long, or from NTR reasons like differences in religion, culture, life direction, etc, or non mutual feelings. Even in duality where romance is not involved, each dual has the capability of profoundly influencing each other, without really intending to.
    Last edited by Suz; 10-28-2011 at 01:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Dew View Post
    Maritsa, let's not confuse "work" with "effort". Any relationship requires some level of effort to be successful. I don't want to be rude, but want to see you happy; so I will say. Maybe that's why previous relationships for you have not worked out in the past, because you expect everything to be perfect?

    I don't know everything, and maybe that's over the line. But I DO know you come here often, brag about how your dating a new dual, and then, after 1-2 things go wrong, you breakup, and say they weren't your dual after all, or they're this and that. Maybe if you expected things to be less than perfect, you'd appreciate some of the little, unimportant things that normally drive you crazy, and you'd be happier, and make things able to work better in your relationships.
    Huh? I've never broken up with my boyfriend. WTH?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa33 View Post
    Huh? I've never broken up with my boyfriend. WTH?
    He means your previous boyfriends, Einstein.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    He means your previous boyfriends, Einstein.
    She hasn't broken up with them either.

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    I hope it's visible and clear how some here are strategic and some are tactical types. The strategics will try to have a goal, while the tactical will tell you to modify things as you experience life. This is quite a common way for conflict relations to attract one another and hold each other at interest and also another reason why activity relations start so easily too.

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    My point wasn't that duality isn't easier, because it is. I guess I just would like to see people being realistic about the limitations of this theory. There is something to Socionics, and there is something to duality, but this theory has serious flaws, and it isn't a good idea to get overly invested in it.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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